Flash hider question

J

JoelJr78

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I have used the search function and I have read the laws. I live in MA so the laws aren't exactly clear in all cases. I have an AR15 I put together. The upper came complete with a 16" threaded barrel and an A2 birdcage. I replaced the pistol grip with a spur grip. That leaves me with one "evil feature" being the "flash hider or threaded barrel that can accept a muzzle device". Now that I only have one evil feature does the flash hider still need to be permanently attached via pin & weld or 1100 degree silver solder?

I thought any muzzle device needed to be permanently attached in MA regardless but I have someone telling me that since I got rid of the pistol grip I am no longer required to permanently attach the flash hider??

Just trying to stay legal.

Thanks!
 
This is the definition of an assault weapon as it relates to rifles:

a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of--
(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon ;
(iii) a bayonet mount;
(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and
(v) a grenade launcher;
Click to expand...

In the vast majority of cases, AR-style rifles have a pistol grip, meaning they have item (ii) from the above list. This means that they cannot have any of the other features, hence the commonly held belief that muzzle devices cannot be flash hiders and that they must be permanently attached in order to avoid adding item (iv).

In your very unusual case, you have replaced the pistol grip with a "spur" grip, thus eliminating item (ii). You can therefore have any one of the other items. This means that having a threaded barrel and/or a flash hider would not make your rifle into an AW, since you would only have one item, (iv).
 
It sounds like you're in the clear. Now that we have a Republican governor maybe the assault weapon ban will be lifted. [rofl]
 
45Collector...the point is if you want to run a flash hider in MA you can't do so with a pistol grip. I happen to want to run a FH so my options are limited.

Point37....I was thinking about that Thordsen stock but I want to try this spur grip first to see if I liked the concept. $25 compared to $143 for the Thordsen enhanced kit with buffer tube cover then another $12 or so for the cheek riser. If I end up liking this spur grip I will eventually get the Thordsen.

Another thing about the spur grip...it takes under a minute to swap out for the pistol grip should SHTF and I don't care about this states dumb ass laws.
 
That's a logical way to go about it...thus far I don't know of anyone else on here that has bought one so maybe do a quick review and post up a few pics to share how you like the spur grip...if you end up hating the spur grip a CA stock would be the way to go I think if you really wanted to keep the flash hider...last resort just buy a muzzle brake/comp and get it pinned at a shop so you can put a pistol grip back on


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
What exactly is an A2 flash hider doing for you that a good muzzle brake, permanently attached for MA compliance, won't? What good is flash suppression when you can't control the rifle properly for follow-up shots because of that spur grip?

To each his own, but I'm not sure you've really thought this through.
 
exodious said:
What exactly is an A2 flash hider doing for you that a good muzzle brake, permanently attached for MA compliance, won't? What good is flash suppression when you can't control the rifle properly for follow-up shots because of that spur grip?

To each his own, but I'm not sure you've really thought this through.
Click to expand...

You are exactly right. A flash hider gets most of us exactly ZERO. The real loss is the loss of the threaded barrel which allows you to swap out muzzle brakes as technology and priorities change.

To the OP and all the flamers - I've actually handled a gun with that CA legal grip and it is actually very natural. Other than its appearance, you aren't giving up much.

So in summary, here's my thought. If you want to put on a CA style grip so you can run a Flash Hider - Don't bother. A FH does absolutely nothing for you.

If you want to put a CA style grip to allow you to keep a threaded muzzle so you can experiment with muzzle end devices, whether thy be FHs or brakes, then it might be worth it.

Or you could just buy a pre-ban lower and be done with it.

Don
 
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Exodius...Have you ever fired an AR with the Spur grip? What good are follow up shots (at night or in low light situations) if you can't see because the muzzle flash has ruined your night vision?

dcmdon....for a $25-$30 investment it is worth it for me. Like you said I have the ability to swap out different FH or MB. If I decide I don't like the Spur grip...no big loss. I also don't like the idea of permanently attaching a muzzle device to my barrel.

It's not for everyone that's for sure. It is different and I like having an AR that isn't just like everyone else's. I will do a review and post some pics once I put a few hundred rounds through it with the Spur grip on it.
 
JoelJr78 said:
Exodius...Have you ever fired an AR with the Spur grip? What good are follow up shots (at night or in low light situations) if you can't see because the muzzle flash has ruined your night vision?

dcmdon....for a $25-$30 investment it is worth it for me. Like you said I have the ability to swap out different FH or MB. If I decide I don't like the Spur grip...no big loss. I also don't like the idea of permanently attaching a muzzle device to my barrel.

It's not for everyone that's for sure. It is different and I like having an AR that isn't just like everyone else's. I will do a review and post some pics once I put a few hundred rounds through it with the Spur grip on it.
Click to expand...

OK man, just wanted to make sure you thought about it. Personally, I don't want to sacrifice any control-ability just to retain a flash hider / non-perm attached muzzle device. There are muzzle brakes/comps out there that have some flash suppression capability but are not classified by BATFE as flash suppressors, such as the FSC556.
 
JoelJr78 said:
Exodius...Have you ever fired an AR with the Spur grip? What good are follow up shots (at night or in low light situations) if you can't see because the muzzle flash has ruined your night vision?

dcmdon....for a $25-$30 investment it is worth it for me. Like you said I have the ability to swap out different FH or MB. If I decide I don't like the Spur grip...no big loss. I also don't like the idea of permanently attaching a muzzle device to my barrel.

It's not for everyone that's for sure. It is different and I like having an AR that isn't just like everyone else's. I will do a review and post some pics once I put a few hundred rounds through it with the Spur grip on it.
Click to expand...

Except that you are wrong about the cost involved. The only non-pistol grip stock/grip that is even remotely ergonomic is the FRS15. And that will run you about $140. So its not an inconsequential amount.

But in the big picture. Your desire to maintain a threaded muzzle makes total sense.
 
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Or you could go the other way. For a deGroat flash ENHANCER.

Either way, with a threaded bbl you can swap back and forth.

Don

normal_DeGroat_Flash_Enhancer_M16.jpg
 
joshk1025 said:
If you are going to go that route, you might as well just stick whatever you want on it. As far as I know nobody has been prosecuted just for a threaded barrel, and there is no case law to suggest that SBRs are safe from the ban.
Click to expand...

I disagree. Not offering legal advice here, just engaging in entertaining dialogue that in no way should be construed as legal advice, not establishment of a lawyer/client relationship. That being said, putting "whatever you want" on a 16" barrel WOULD be illegal in MA, which defines a rifle as:

“Rifle”, a weapon having a rifled bore with a barrel length equal to or greater than 16 inches and capable of discharging a shot or bullet for each pull of the trigger.
Click to expand...
https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section121

then you're subject to the "semi-automatic rifle" piece of the AWB:

(B) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of -
(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
(iii) a bayonet mount;
(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and
(v) a grenade launcher;
Click to expand...

so putting "whatever you want" explicitly violates the law. Detachable magazine, PLUS (ii) pistol grip, (iv) flash suppressor, and (iv) threaded barrel. Regardless of whether anybody has been prosecuted, the law is clearly against that idea. It is plain to see the law in its current state, does not apply to SBRs. AGAIN. Not legal advice, just entertaining dialogue. The laws you decide to follow and ignore are your business.
 
massBRS said:
I disagree. Not offering legal advice here, just engaging in entertaining dialogue that in no way should be construed as legal advice, not establishment of a lawyer/client relationship. That being said, putting "whatever you want" on a 16" barrel WOULD be illegal in MA, which defines a rifle as:

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section121

then you're subject to the "semi-automatic rifle" piece of the AWB:



so putting "whatever you want" explicitly violates the law. Detachable magazine, PLUS (ii) pistol grip, (iv) flash suppressor, and (iv) threaded barrel. Regardless of whether anybody has been prosecuted, the law is clearly against that idea. It is plain to see the law in its current state, does not apply to SBRs. AGAIN. Not legal advice, just entertaining dialogue. The laws you decide to follow and ignore are your business.
Click to expand...

Sure, but the AWB incorporates the Fed AWB as it existed in 1994, which could arguable reference not the MA definition of rifle but the federal definition of a rifle. The federal definition of a rifle includes "regular" rifles as well as SBR, so the federal AWB applied to regular rifles and SBRs. I'm not saying you would get convicted, I'm just saying you could easily get arrested and charged for a non AWB compliant SBR in this state, just like you could a 16" plus barreled rifle.
 
joshk1025 said:
Sure, but the AWB incorporates the Fed AWB as it existed in 1994, which could arguable reference not the MA definition of rifle but the federal definition of a rifle. I'm not saying you would get convicted, I'm just saying you could easily get arrested and charged for a non AWB compliant SBR in this state, just like you could a 16" plus barreled rifle.
Click to expand...

This has been gone over 1000 times, but the MA AWB references only that portion of the Fed AWB that defines what constitutes an "assault weapon". It doesn't reference the portion of Fed law that defines what constitutes a "rifle". And since MA law helpfully defines what does constitute a "rifle", many here on this board think that is the definition we must use.
 
exodious said:
This has been gone over 1000 times, but the MA AWB references only that portion of the Fed AWB that defines what constitutes an "assault weapon". It doesn't reference the portion of Fed law that defines what constitutes a "rifle". And since MA law helpfully defines what does constitute a "rifle", many here on this board think that is the definition we must use.
Click to expand...

Oy vey. Yes, I know this. All I'm saying is, do you think your average police officer is going to be able to tell a flash-hider and a muzzle break apart? There isn't a lot of case law on this - it's great that we all think that SBRs are MA AWB exempt, but all it takes is the SJC disagreeing with you to make that not matter at all. The fact of the matter is, AWB charges are "add-on" charges if you get busted doing something else illegal. That's all I'm saying. IF you really care about covering your butt, you should have everything, including SBRs, AWB compliant. If you don't really care...
 
joshk1025 said:
Oy vey. Yes, I know this. All I'm saying is, do you think your average police officer is going to be able to tell a flash-hider and a muzzle break apart? There isn't a lot of case law on this - it's great that we all think that SBRs are MA AWB exempt, but all it takes is the SJC disagreeing with you to make that not matter at all. The fact of the matter is, AWB charges are "add-on" charges if you get busted doing something else illegal. That's all I'm saying. IF you really care about covering your butt, you should have everything, including SBRs, AWB compliant. If you don't really care...
Click to expand...

In short, MA sucks. [angry] Yeah, I get what you're saying now.
 
joshk1025 said:
Oy vey. Yes, I know this. All I'm saying is, do you think your average police officer is going to be able to tell a flash-hider and a muzzle break apart? There isn't a lot of case law on this - it's great that we all think that SBRs are MA AWB exempt, but all it takes is the SJC disagreeing with you to make that not matter at all. The fact of the matter is, AWB charges are "add-on" charges if you get busted doing something else illegal. That's all I'm saying. IF you really care about covering your butt, you should have everything, including SBRs, AWB compliant. If you don't really care...
Click to expand...

it's not a matter of wanting to "think" there's an "exemption" - we're hanging our perspective on what is and what is not on the books. The SJC is impartial between the police and citizen and must follow the letter of the law. Putting an unpinned flash suppressor on a 16" barrel is against the law in MA following the letter of the law. Like it or not, there is a difference between an SBR and a Rifle in MA.
 
massBRS said:
it's not a matter of wanting to "think" there's an "exemption" - we're hanging our perspective on what is and what is not on the books. The SJC is impartial between the police and citizen and must follow the letter of the law. Putting an unpinned flash suppressor on a 16" barrel is against the law in MA following the letter of the law. Like it or not, there is a difference between an SBR and a Rifle in MA.
Click to expand...

View attachment 127020

[rofl] [laugh2]

Oh god, I can't breathe. [rofl]

Whew. Ok. I think what you meant to say is that they're supposed to be (all that stuff you said).
 
i have an a2 birdcage but only slotted on top, i was told (and looked up the def on flash hiders) that this is a muzzle brake/compensator and not a flash hider because flash hiders are slotted all the way around. looks sweet and pushes muzzle down on rapid fire( each pull of the trigger) just incase big brother is reading [wink] all though it does in this process , (unintentionally), hide flash
 
mpoirier83 said:
i have an a2 birdcage but only slotted on top, i was told (and looked up the def on flash hiders) that this is a muzzle brake/compensator and not a flash hider because flash hiders are slotted all the way around. looks sweet and pushes muzzle down on rapid fire( each pull of the trigger) just incase big brother is reading [wink] all though it does in this process , (unintentionally), hide flash
Click to expand...

Good luck with that.
 
mpoirier83 said:
i have an a2 birdcage but only slotted on top, i was told (and looked up the def on flash hiders) that this is a muzzle brake/compensator and not a flash hider because flash hiders are slotted all the way around. looks sweet and pushes muzzle down on rapid fire( each pull of the trigger) just incase big brother is reading [wink] all though it does in this process , (unintentionally), hide flash
Click to expand...

Just curious where you found that definition. I'm guessing not in the MGLs.
 
mpoirier83 said:
i have an a2 birdcage but only slotted on top, i was told (and looked up the def on flash hiders) that this is a muzzle brake/compensator and not a flash hider because flash hiders are slotted all the way around. looks sweet and pushes muzzle down on rapid fire( each pull of the trigger) just incase big brother is reading [wink] all though it does in this process , (unintentionally), hide flash
Click to expand...

Sorry guy. You are wrong.

An A2 flash hider is a flash hider. Anyone who knows the difference will look at the end of the item. If the inside has a venturi shape with no end plate, its a flash hider.

If its got an end plate with an exit aperture just a bit larger than the bullet, then its a brake.

A flash hider generally draws air in through the slots. A muzzle brake blows air out.

Don

- - - Updated - - -

jasons said:
Just curious where you found that definition. I'm guessing not in the MGLs.
Click to expand...

MGLs don't define anything like that. But if anyone is ever prosecuted, any expert witness brought in by the prosecution will say an A2 is a flash hider. The defense would have a very difficult time finding an expert with any credentials to state that an A2 is not a FH.

Don
 

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