First AR-15 Dilemma

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SigSlinger508

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I'm on the verge of buying my first AR platform rifle. I was set on the S&W M&P 15 sport for price, reliability, and philosophy of use reasons. However I would at minimum have to purchase a red dot sight as an upgrade even if I left everything else factory. The most affordable red dot I have seen was what I believe was a sig with 3 MOA which is fine for combat accuracy. I sont want to break the bank or pay as much for a red dot as I did for the damn gun. My dilemma is that one of my local FFLs just got some Bushmaster Carbon 15s in stock as well. They are a little more expensive but come with a red dot sight already installed. However, they do not have iron sights on them at all. I sont need them to co witness, but I do need both iron sights and a red dot or acog as well. Shoukd I go tith the S&W and find an affordable red dot to install or should I go with the Bushmaster and get some flip up sights? Which will be more cost effective in your opinion? Which is more reliable? Links to guns posted below, bushmaster is like 30 bucks more expensive presumably because its got a red dot on it already.

http://www.massfirearmsshop.com/bushmaster-carbon-with-p-2009.html

http://www.massfirearmsshop.com/smith-wesson-mp15-sport-556x45mm-p-1983.html
 
If I were in your shoes I'd get the S&W and a Aimpoint clone from Primary Arms.
 
The Carbon 15 is all polymer.

Get the S&W, and get a 1-4x (Vortex Crossfire), or a PA ACSS 1-6x. You can run them both eyes open like a red dot, or zoom in and use it like a scope.

That being said, I would just buy a stripped lower and buy a lower build kit and compliant upper online and save yourself like $100
 
Don't do it, and btw how much are you looking to spend? I just don't believe in "for the first AR platform rifle." There are so many options nowadays that one should not settle for "less quality more expensive".
 
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the m&p sport is a good rifle for the price. just buy an affordable red dot like the trs 25 or the pa micro and youll be all set.

ps you need to switch your "d" and "s" keys on your keyboard [smile]
 
Artifact said:
Don't do it, and btw how much are you looking to spend? I just don't believe in "for the first AR platform rifle." There are so many options nowadays that one should not settle for "less quality more expensive".
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Dont do what exactly? Get either one? I dont have alot of experience with assembling and disassembling ARs as ive never owned one. Dont come from a gun family so i dont have someone close to me to mentor me on how to build one hands on. I figure ill buy this one and my next one will be a buikd and higher "quality" once i get the hang of it

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mursenary4 said:
the m&p sport is a good rifle for the price. just buy an affordable red dot like the trs 25 or the pa micro and youll be all set.

ps you need to switch your "d" and "s" keys on your keyboard [smile]
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Not sure i understand the last part? Went right over my head i guess

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And im not looking to soend any more than that bushmaster costs, pretty mich under 700 bucks i guess
 
SigSlinger508 said:
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Not sure i understand the last part? Went right over my head i guess

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And im not looking to soend any more than that bushmaster costs, pretty mich under 700 bucks i guess
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I sont want to break the bank or pay as much for a red dot as I did for the damn gun.
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If you spend $700 you will spend another few hundred $ to make it internet tactical.
 
If you are willing to shoot the bushmaster with open sights, then why not the Smith? It comes with a fine Magpul MBUS rear sight.

In all seriousness. You can not compare the Carbon 15 to the Sport. One is a real AR, and the other is an all plastic . . . well. Something.

The Sport is a far far superior firearm.

Melonited barrel inside and out.
Better than mil spec upper and lower made out of forged 7075 Aluminum
Smith and wesson LIFETIME service policy - including 2 way shipping for all repairs.

Its a no brainer.
 
dcmdon said:
If you are willing to shoot the bushmaster with open sights, then why not the Smith? It comes with a fine Magpul MBUS rear sight.

In all seriousness. You can not compare the Carbon 15 to the Sport. One is a real AR, and the other is an all plastic . . . well. Something.

The Sport is a far far superior firearm.

Melonited barrel inside and out.
Better than mil spec upper and lower made out of forged 7075 Aluminum
Smith and wesson LIFETIME service policy - including 2 way shipping for all repairs.

Its a no brainer.
Click to expand...

What I was saying is i want the red dot AND open sights for both. The S&W comes eith the sights and the Bushmaster comes with just the red dot so either way Id have to buy a new red dot or sone flip up sights to have both for either gun. Yeah that seems to be the concensus but ive heard mixed things about the melonite barrel vs chrome lined
 
The bushmaster looks like you will need a new gas block if you want a front sight. Doesn't looked railed?

If you don't have a means of saving more then here is my take.
SW few mags and ammo. Learn to shoot with iron sights then after a few thousand rounds re think optics. I personally can't really get into red dots but I'm trying to shoot small groups not hits on a 18x22 torso size targets are not my thing. I bought a acog about 6 years ago. Great piece of equipment but just couldn't get into it. I,might even go as far as to say replace the SW rear sight with a detach A2 style rear sight.
At least gives you winddage and elevation adjustments.
 
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Just a,note .... the red dot mount set up on the BM looks awful. Looks cheap and flimsy ?
 
It costs about $12 to shoot a 30-round mag. Don't nickel-and-dime the rifle or worry about $30 here or $50 there. I would buy the S&W, put on a TRS-25 with 1/3 co-witness and call it a day. Eventually you'll probably want more stuff (like a sling) but that'll get you shootin'.
 
mac1911 said:
The bushmaster looks like you will need a new gas block if you want a front sight. Doesn't looked railed?

If you don't have a means of saving more then here is my take.
SW few mags and ammo. Learn to shoot with iron sights then after a few thousand rounds re think optics. I personally can't really get into red dots but I'm trying to shoot small groups not hits on a 18x22 torso size targets are not my thing. I bought a acog about 6 years ago. Great piece of equipment but just couldn't get into it. I,might even go as far as to say replace the SW rear sight with a detach A2 style rear sight.
At least gives you winddage and elevation adjustments.
Click to expand...

The barrel on the Sport is better than mil spec. Here's why:

1) No M204 cuts - Do you really intend to use a grenade launcher with your AR? I didn't think so. Especially when you pay for those cuts with decreased accuracy and increased cost.
2) Melonite on the outside of the barrel - Far far far harder and more corrosion resistant than the mil spec manganese dioxide parkerizing.
3) Melonite on the inside of the barrel - Meloniting is is not a coating (like hard chrome) so it can't flake off. Its a surface treatment that leaves the metal more corrosion and wear resistant, like chrome. Unlike chrome, it doesn't change the dimensions of the barrel. So you maintain the inherently greater accuracy of an unplated barrel. I am not saying that a chrome plated barrel can't be more accurate than an unplated barrel (whether its just bare CroMo, Stainless, or melonited) I'm saying that its easier to build an accurate barrel that is unplated. So for a gun that is built to a price point, like a Sport, you are going to get good accuracy at a reasonable price.
4) Lets not forget that the military standard for building an AR or M4 is based on a 50 year old set of requirements. Much has changed and improved since then. Based on modern technology, it is sometimes possible to make something for less money that is better than the more expensive set of requirements called for in the TDP.

Don
 
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dcmdon said:
The barrel on the Sport is better than mil spec. Here's why:

1) No M204 cuts - Do you really intend to use a grenade launcher with your AR? I didn't think so. Especially when you pay for those cuts with decreased accuracy and increased cost.
2) Melonite on the outside of the barrel - Far far far harder and more corrosion resistant than the mil spec manganese dioxide parkerizing.
3) Melonite on the inside of the barrel - Meloniting is is not a coating (like hard chrome) so it can't flake off. Its a surface treatment that leaves the metal more corrosion and wear resistant, like chrome. Unlike chrome, it doesn't change the dimensions of the barrel. So you maintain the inherently greater accuracy of an unplated barrel. I am not saying that a chrome plated barrel can't be more accurate than an unplated barrel (whether its just bare CroMo, Stainless, or melonited) I'm saying that its easier to build an accurate barrel that is unplated. So for a gun that is built to a price point, like a Sport, you are going to get good accuracy at a reasonable price.
4) Lets not forget that the military standard for building an AR or M4 is based on a 50 year old set of requirements. Much has changed and improved since then. Based on modern technology, it is sometimes possible to make something for less money that is better than the more expensive set of requirements called for in the TDP.

Don
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I noticed looking through the different MIL-STD for rifles and ammo that your right the standard has not changed much for accuracy of ammo or guns in a long time. I read through the testing for M855 and was surprised at how they play with the averages/median/percentage that there is pretty good room for bad lots to get through.

As for the SW sport... Its hard to find a better rifle for 600.00 right from the box. IMHO
 
Stay away from the Carbon 15 IMHO. I had bought one in a moment of weakness and could not get rid of it fast enough. It's light, that's about the only nice thing I can say about it.
 
I can't believe this thread is more than 24 hrs old and nobody has chimed in "learn to shoot with iron sights first- back in 1903 when the Springfield rifle came out, me and my buddies would shoot 3000 yards open sights on a man sized prison inmate...damn kids and their fancy red dot whoozie whatsies"

Come on NES, letting me down! [smile]
 
M&P15 Sport was my first rifle. I love it. No issues with anything at all. Runs great and I've never had a single issue.
 
Badcat22 said:
I can't believe this thread is more than 24 hrs old and nobody has chimed in "learn to shoot with iron sights first- back in 1903 when the Springfield rifle came out, me and my buddies would shoot 3000 yards open sights on a man sized prison inmate...damn kids and their fancy red dot whoozie whatsies"

Come on NES, letting me down! [smile]
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It was implied.

OP acknowledged keeping/adding irons so I think we all made the assumption that he was going to master those first, then after demonstrating his ability to make cloverleafs at 3,000 yds (off hand, while maneuvering in/around vehicles) move on to using the crutch that is a red dot. I mean, that was my progression anyway.
 
Badcat22 said:
I can't believe this thread is more than 24 hrs old and nobody has chimed in "learn to shoot with iron sights first- back in 1903 when the Springfield rifle came out, me and my buddies would shoot 3000 yards open sights on a man sized prison inmate...damn kids and their fancy red dot whoozie whatsies"

Come on NES, letting me down! [smile]
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Haha well thats why i said id get the open sights for the Bushmaster id notmally use them but want a red dot too for range fun
 
Deals on the M&P 15 Sport: http://www.slickguns.com/search/apachesolr_search/m%26p 15 sport?op=

I second the thought to learn to shoot irons first.

The first and probably only thing I'd add to the gun itself is a 2 stage trigger.

A RRA can be had for about $90 on Gun Broker. No need to get a Geissele, Jard, or similar for a non-match rifle.

Don

p.s. I would not get a Timney for a gun that may be pressed into defensive use. I had one on a rifle I used for 3 gun. I loved it. It ran perfect, until it started giving light strikes. I sent it back and Timney built me a hybrid with an AR10 hammer spring. That was bullet proof. But RRA and Geissele both use standard single stage strength hammer springs.
 
dcmdon said:
Deals on the M&P 15 Sport: http://www.slickguns.com/search/apachesolr_search/m%26p 15 sport?op=

I second the thought to learn to shoot irons first.

The first and probably only thing I'd add to the gun itself is a 2 stage trigger.

A RRA can be had for about $90 on Gun Broker. No need to get a Geissele, Jard, or similar for a non-match rifle.

Don

p.s. I would not get a Timney for a gun that may be pressed into defensive use. I had one on a rifle I used for 3 gun. I loved it. It ran perfect, until it started giving light strikes. I sent it back and Timney built me a hybrid with an AR10 hammer spring. That was bullet proof. But RRA and Geissele both use standard single stage strength hammer springs.
Click to expand...

The Hiperfire trigger solves this issue, It is really a neat design, you get a 2lb trigger but higher hammer strike force than milspec
 
I'd get the M&P (though I personally wouldn't get a gun without a forward assist) and a Vortex red dot. Lot of crappy red dots out there and I definitely wouldn't want a gun that comes with one on it. Vortex makes good budget red dots that you can trust if you're set on going cheap.
 

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