Firearm "registration"

[Fsorrent]

I guess we can all just thank your accurate and enriched knowledge of firearms law's in MA. It seems to me that you've hit the nail on the head.

Now that I am armed with all this knowledge/the correct interpretation from now on I am strictly doing business with only the "unlicensed" gun dealer's and have no intention of making any effort of notifying anyone about this transfer...oh wait I believe there are groups of people that do this but I can't really spawn their names..ooo its like ...um i know it rhymes with "ang-bangers"... Oh well.

 

[vellnueve]

Some people only choose to read the parts of the law that they want to see.

 

[Half Cocked]

I think you guys are missing it.

break the two laws down into the elements.

C140S128A covers private sales by residents and states that a resident who possesses a license to carry or an FID card may sell up to 4 firearms a year, including rifles and shotguns.

This chapter authorizes private licensed (LTC/FID) individuals to sell guns to other licensed (LTC/FID) and states that the SELLER complete an FA-10.

C140S128B covers purchases outside the scope of Sections 122 and 128A.

Section 128B states that any resident of the commonwealth who purchases or obtains a firearm,rifle or shotgun from any source OTHER THAN A LICENSEE (GUNSMITH) OR FROM A PERSON AUTHORIZED TO SELL FIREARMS UNDER 128A (resident w/LTC or FID).

Therefore, as I read it. If you are given a firearm from a resident who possesses a LTC/FID. You are not required to submit an FA-10.

Scrivener, you are allowed to obtain firearms from an unlicensed person legally as long as you do submit an FA-10 in that situation.

That is what C140S128B addresses.

An example. If someone moves into Massachusetts and brings their firearms with them. They establish residency in Mass. They have 60 days to become licensed to possess those firearms. If they decide that they do not want to bother becoming licensed in Massachusetts they can give the guns to a neighbor who possesses a LTC. Then the neighbor would have to submit an FA-10 because he obtained the guns from a person not authorized to sell firearms under 128A because they did not possess aLTC/FID.

 

[Moderator]

I consider myself knowledgeable of Ma law.

Please enlighten us with your credentials.

 

[Half Cocked]

jDubois, Thank you. I am trying to see what others are seeing different than me. I consider myself fairly intelligent on the matter and I believe that I am correct.

I can see though that others do not like to be challenged intellectually and believe that they are always right and anyone "new" must be an idiot.

It is nice to see that new people are welcomed in a respectful manner on this forum and are just considered "trolls".

 

[jdubois]

C140S128A covers private sales by residents and states that a resident who possesses a license to carry or an FID card may sell up to 4 firearms a year, including rifles and shotguns.

This chapter authorizes private licensed (LTC/FID) individuals to sell guns to other licensed (LTC/FID) and states that the SELLER complete an FA-10.

I think that's your disconnect there. Section 128A does not state that LTC/FID individuals can sell firearms AND they should complete an FA-10. It states that LTC/FID individuals can sell firearms PROVIDED they complete an FA-10. If the seller does not complete an FA-10, then the sale is not covered by that section. So the sale now comes from an 'unauthorized source' as referenced in 128B, and so the buyer is now obligated to file the FA-10.

 

[Half Cocked]

Please enlighten us with your credentials.

I have been a Narcotics Detective for 13 years and conduct training and instruction on Ma Law in regards to narcotics laws and search and seizure. I have received specialized training in Firearms Laws and Investigation of firearm related offenses.

I am a Law Enforcement firearms instructor.

I spent 10 years in the firearm industry as a retailer as well as a manufacturers sales rep.

Competitive shooter since childhood. I have competed the national championship matches at Camp Perry for smallbore rifle and spent many years as a competitive PPC and IPSC shooter.

Many laws are misinterpreted and are difficult to understand. I thought that I had a good comprehension of this area until I came across this forum and read something to the contrary. I understand that there are intelligent people here which is why I started the thread and asked the question.

If I am wrong I want to know why I am wrong and not just because So and So says So.

I like people to understand laws and have a good comprehension of them as it makes everyone safer and more intelligent.

 

[Scrivener]

Scrivener, you are allowed to obtain firearms from an unlicensed person legally as long as you do submit an FA-10 in that situation.

And how, pray tell, does one "obtain firearms from an unlicensed person legally," other than the two specific examples I gave? Cite the statute(s).

That is what C140S128B addresses.

That statute says no such thing. Try again.

An example. If someone moves into Massachusetts and brings their firearms with them. They establish residency in Mass. They have 60 days to become licensed to possess those firearms. If they decide that they do not want to bother becoming licensed in Massachusetts they can give the guns to a neighbor who possesses a LTC. Then the neighbor would have to submit an FA-10 because he obtained the guns from a person not authorized to sell firearms under 128A because they did not possess aLTC/FID.

Your grasp of statutory analysis is exceeded only by your ability to punctuate. Please go back to dispatching and stop wasting the board's bandwidth.

 

[kevin9]

I have been a Narcotics Detective for 13 years and conduct training and instruction on Ma Law in regards to narcotics laws and search and seizure. I have received specialized training in Firearms Laws and Investigation of firearm related offenses.

From whom was this training in firearms laws provided? You should get your money back from them because what they have taught you is wrong.

I will ask the question, even though it has been answered for you many times; What kind of license(s) are Sections 122 and 128 about? Note that LTCs are in Section 131 and FIDs in 129.

Section 122. The chief of police or the board or officer having control of the police in a city or town, or persons authorized by them, may, after an investigation into the criminal history of the applicant to determine eligibility for a license under this section, grant a license to any person ..., to sell, rent or lease firearms, rifles, shotguns or machine guns, or to be in business as a gunsmith.

Nothing here about licenses to possess (e.g., LTC and FID).

Section 122. The chief of police or the board or officer having control of the police in a city or town, or persons authorized by them, may, after an investigation into the criminal history of the applicant to determine eligibility for a license under this section, grant a license to any person except an alien, a minor, a person who has been adjudicated a youthful offender, as defined in section fifty-two of chapter one hundred and nineteen, including those who have not received an adult sentence or a person who has been convicted of a felony or of the unlawful use, possession or sale of narcotic or harmful drugs, to sell, rent or lease firearms, rifles, shotguns or machine guns, or to be in business as a gunsmith.

Again no references to LTC of FID.

If you continue to refuse to read the laws in question and what others post, including legal experts far more experienced in this area than you or I, then IMNSHO your insistence on promulgating a clearly incorrect understanding of said laws, which places readers who might act on your recommendations at legal risk, constitutes advocation of illegal behavior and should result in banishment from this board. In my opinion.

 

[pdm]

I like people to understand laws and have a good comprehension of them as it makes everyone safer and more intelligent.

Maybe it wouldn't be so hard if the laws weren't written by a pack of drunken monkeys. With those credentials, why don't you publicly advocate for a reformation of the firearms laws to make them clearer and easier? Like, say, eliminating registration requirements completely and the elimination of a license for purchase or mere possession?

 

[Scrivener]

I have been a Narcotics Detective for 13 years and conduct training and instruction on Ma Law in regards to narcotics laws and search and seizure. I have received specialized training in Firearms Laws and Investigation of firearm related offenses.

I am a Law Enforcement firearms instructor.

I spent 10 years in the firearm industry as a retailer as well as a manufacturers sales rep.

Competitive shooter since childhood. I have competed the national championship matches at Camp Perry for smallbore rifle and spent many years as a competitive PPC and IPSC shooter.

And yet you can't grasp the concept that you are wrong, despite ample documentation of that defect.

Is your next career move to Homeland Security?

 

[Admin]

Wow! If all that doesn't drive him off, I'll be surprised

If he's an LEO, I'm sure his skin is thick enough and he'll be fine.

ETA: The DU comment was priceless.

 

[Moderator]

Half Cocked has requested that I reopen this so he can argue his point further. This thread must remain clean and we must all talk to each other with respect, and please keep the popcorn icons etc to a minimum.

 

[Scrivener]

Half Cocked has requested that I reopen this so he can argue his point further. This thread must remain clean and we must all talk to each other with respect, and please keep the popcorn icons etc to a minimum.

He is certainly free to "argue his point further" if the forum administrator wishes.

Whether granting that request serves any useful purpose is questionable. Put me down as "Asked and answered - repeatedly."

 

[kevin9]

Half Cocked has requested that I reopen this so he can argue his point further. This thread must remain clean and we must all talk to each other with respect, and please keep the popcorn icons etc to a minimum.

I understand that. I do look forward to him providing any additional information in support of his position.

However, respect also includes listening to what people say. I consider it disrespectful for someone to keep repeating that same points over and over without providing any additional evidence or showing any appearance that one has read what others have written. If this turns out to be the case then I'm with Scrivener; been there, done that, got the tee shirt.

 

[FPrice]

Half Cocked has requested that I reopen this so he can argue his point further. This thread must remain clean and we must all talk to each other with respect, and please keep the popcorn icons etc to a minimum.

I'm always up to a challenge.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on the TV, in the movies, or on the internet. I'm just a reasonable man and have a reasonable man's viewpoint.

Could someone please tell me where in Ma law it states that one must "register" a firearm?

When I first read this question, I wondered why the word "register" was placed in quotation marks? Did the OP have a problem or disagreement with this word?

I did a cursory check of the MGLs which I could determine referenced this general subject and did not come across the word "register". So one "could" argue that "registration" is not required.

However, what a reasonable man could not do is argue that there is no requirement within the Commonwealth of Massachusetts to report the sale or transfer of a firearm.

i.e. if my father passes away and he owns firearms and I take possession of them and I am licensed. Where is there a requirement to file an FA-10?

If the old timer who lives next door to me wishes to give me a couple of firearms that he owns. Where is the requirement to file an FA-10.

The requirement is very easy to find:

"Chapter 140: Section 128B. Unauthorized purchase of firearms; report to commissioner; penalties

Section 128B. Any resident of the commonwealth who purchases or obtains a firearm, rifle or shotgun or machine gun from any source within or without the commonwealth, other than from a licensee under section one hundred and twenty-two or a person authorized to sell firearms under section one hundred and twenty-eight A...shall within seven days after receiving such firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, report, in writing, to the executive director of the criminal history systems board the name and address of the seller or donor and the buyer or donee, together with a complete description of the firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, including the caliber, make and serial number. Whoever violates any provision of this section shall for the first offense be punished by a fine of not less than $500 nor more than $1,000 and for any subsequent offense by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than ten years."

The above quite clearly establishes the requirement to report such acquisitions as the OP mentioned in his original post. The existance of the FA-10 form also serves to support this requirement.

I do not see any "registration" requirements in Ma Law and or any penalties.

Again we are back to that pesky little word, "registration". At this point we might ask ourselves, just what does the word "registration" mean? I decided to go to my trusted 1936 Edition of the National Dictionary and see if I could find out what this word meant.

"registration - n. the act of inserting into a register."

"register - n. an official written record."

An official written record?

For the purposes of this arguement, er, discussion, if we could agree that any document or data storage which contains information, such as a database of scanned records could be considered as an official written record, then we would have to consider the CHSB's Firearms Record Bureau Database as a "register". For, as Shakespeare wrote, "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." (Meaning: What matters is what something is, not what it is called.)

So, parsing words aside, a simple reading of MGLs reveals that a Massachusetts resident is required to report the acquisition of a firearm (after all, once your father or that old guy next to you "gives" you a furearm, it is no longer their's, it is yours) and in doing so you provide the information which goes into the CHSB database/register.

I think that is pretty clear, don't you?

 

[Half Cocked]

FPrice, one needs to read the entire statute:

Section 128B. Any resident of the commonwealth who purchases or obtains a firearm, rifle or shotgun or machine gun from any source within or without the commonwealth, other than from a licensee under section one hundred and twenty-two or a person authorized to sell firearms under section one hundred and twenty-eight A...shall within seven days after receiving such firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, report, in writing, to the executive director of the criminal history systems board the name and address of the seller or donor and the buyer or donee, together with a complete description of the firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, including the caliber, make and serial number. Whoever violates any provision of this section shall for the first offense be punished by a fine of not less than $500 nor more than $1,000 and for any subsequent offense by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than ten years."

A licensee under S122 is a gunsmith/dealer
A person authorized to sell firearms under S128A is a person with a LTC/FID.

That is the answer in my opinion!! The person who RECEIVES a firearm from a gunsmith/dealer or a person with an LTC/FID are exempt from this!!

 

[FPrice]

That is the answer in my opinion!! The person who RECEIVES a firearm from a gunsmith/dealer or a person with an LTC/FID are exempt from this!!

Please tell me, can you purchase a firearm from a Massachusetts gunsmith/dealer without filling out an FA-10 along with the 4473?

And what does the gunsmith/dealer do with that FA-10?

 

[jdubois]

I think that is pretty clear, don't you?

Seems all pretty clear to me. However, I think Half Cocked's (latest, at least) argument is that if the transfer falls under 128A, it's the transferer's responsibility to register the transfer, and so in this case the transferee has no obligation under 128B. I believe, if I remember correctly, that this is Ron Glidden's interpretation as well.

Half Cocked has not addressed my interpretation, however, that a transferer who does not file an FA-10 is not authorized under 128A, and so 128B then becomes relevant.

 

[Dirtypacman]

Could someone please tell me where in Ma law it states that one must "register" a firearm?

i.e. if my father passes away and he owns firearms and I take possession of them and I am licensed. Where is there a requirement to file an FA-10?

I only see that as a "seller" that you would want to file an FA-10 to transfer ownership in the event that the firearm turns up somewhere in the future.

Are you expecting your dead father to assume responsibility for filing the FA-10?

 

[Adam_MA]

If there was no requirement for a buyer to ever file an FA-10, then why would they include the registration only selection at the top?

 

[Half Cocked]

Please tell me, can you purchase a firearm from a Massachusetts gunsmith/dealer without filling out an FA-10 along with the 4473?

And what does the gunsmith/dealer do with that FA-10?

No you can not. But I am not discussing purchases from a licensed dealer/gunsmith. I am talking personal transfers and the responsibility of the RECEIVING PERSON.

Section 128B applies to individuals who receive firearms FROM OTHER THAN A LICENSED DEALER OR INDIVIDUAL WHO POSSESSES AN LTC/FID. This is my point!!! It is the gunsmith/dealer responsibility to file an FA-10 as they are required to do so under their licenses. NOT THE RECEIVER/PURCHASER.

 

[Half Cocked]

Seems all pretty clear to me. However, I think Half Cocked's (latest, at least) argument is that if the transfer falls under 128A, it's the transferer's responsibility to register the transfer, and so in this case the transferee has no obligation under 128B. I believe, if I remember correctly, that this is Ron Glidden's interpretation as well.

Half Cocked has not addressed my interpretation, however, that a transferer who does not file an FA-10 is not authorized under 128A, and so 128B then becomes relevant

Yes....The obligations are on the SELLER under 128A!!!! There is no obligation on the one who receives the firearm. The seller commits a misdemeanor but there is no penalty to the purchaser/receiver.

 

[Half Cocked]

If there was no requirement for a buyer to ever file an FA-10, then why would they include the registration only selection at the top?

Because section 128B adresses this. It is for firearms received from someone OTHER THAN A DEALER/GUNSMITH or someone authorized to sell guns pursuant to Section 128A which is an individual who possesses a LTC/FID.

It is for firearms obtained from people who do not possess a LTC/FID.

Example: someone who has guns in their home that were left from an uncle who passed away and wants to give them to you who possesses a LTC/FID. They do not possess a LTC so you would be obligated to file an FA-10.

Someone who has an expired LTC/FID and wants to give you a firearm. You would have to submit an FA-10.

 

[jdubois]

Yes....The obligations are on the SELLER under 128A!!!! There is no obligation on the one who receives the firearm. The seller commits a misdemeanor but there is no penalty to the purchaser/receiver.

Are you purposely ignoring me?

Half Cocked has not addressed my interpretation, however, that a transferer who does not file an FA-10 is not authorized under 128A, and so 128B then becomes relevant.

 

[Tiktock]

If someone is dead, they do not hold a LTC/FID anymore. They are dead. So I would think that a dead person is not authorized under 128A to do anything at all, nor could they even if they were....because they are dead.

 

[FPrice]

Half Cocked has requested that I reopen this so he can argue his point further. This thread must remain clean and we must all talk to each other with respect, and please keep the popcorn icons etc to a minimum.

Well, we have tried. However I, like others I am sure, feel that Half Cocked has not provided any substantive arguement on his part. My analysis is that he really does not know what the subject, cannot bring himself to admit it, and is using this thread to educate himself. Look at how many times he appears to adopt the information someone else presents in a post as his position.

Sorry, but that's the way I feel. Make a referral on me, ban me from this thread, heck, take away my birthday if you want!

 

[Half Cocked]

Are you purposely ignoring me?

Sorry I did not respond sooner I was busy.

No I do not agree. Just because the seller does not file the FA-10 does not trigger 128B.

There is no element of that mentioned in S128B. The seller is subject to prosecution but not the purchaser.

The elements of S128B, specifically EXCLUDE licensed dealers/gunsmiths and those authorized to sell under 128A (persons with LTC/FID).

 

[Half Cocked]

If someone is dead, they do not hold a LTC/FID anymore. They are dead. So I would think that a dead person is not authorized under 128A to do anything at all, nor could they even if they were....because they are dead.

You are missing my point. I never said a dead person would fall under 128A.

 

[Tiktock]

You are missing my point. I never said a dead person would fall under 128A.

You said in your first post:
"i.e. if my father passes away and he owns firearms and I take possession of them and I am licensed. Where is there a requirement to file an FA-10?"

I read this as meaning you obtain a firearm from your dead father.

Law states:
"Chapter 140: Section 128B. Unauthorized purchase of firearms; report to commissioner; penalties
Section 128B. Any resident of the commonwealth who purchases or obtains a firearm, rifle or shotgun or machine gun from any source within or without the commonwealth, other than from a licensee under section one hundred and twenty-two or a person authorized to sell firearms under section one hundred and twenty-eight A...shall within seven days...."

So, you obtained a firearm from a source and that source is not a licensee under 122 or 128A and thus need to file. I dont know how it gets any clearer than that.

My breakdown works like this, i'd like to see yours:
You: Resident
Source: Dead father
Source fall under 122 or 128A?: No
Obtained a firearm?: Yes
File form required: Yes

Im not a lawyer, lawyers have tried in vain to help you. I suggest that if no one here has sufficiently supported what you believe to be the truth, that you pony up the money and pay a lawyer to tell you the same thing.