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Firearm "registration"

He sure does agree, which really confuses me. If no FA-10 is ever filed for a gun and you have it in your posession, I'd assume it is still listed under someone else's name. Would you run into problems if you were caught with it? What about if you yourself then wanted to sell it, would something kick out of the system since it would appear no form was ever filed to transfer it?

Or in the original post's situation, your dad dies....who files the FA-10? No one? or are we just saying "who cares so long as its not legally required for us to do so?"
 
Tiktock said:
He sure does agree, which really confuses me. If no FA-10 is ever filed for a gun and you have it in your posession, I'd assume it is still listed under someone else's name. Would you run into problems if you were caught with it? What about if you yourself then wanted to sell it, would something kick out of the system since it would appear no form was ever filed to transfer it?

Or in the original post's situation, your dad dies....who files the FA-10? No one? or are we just saying "who cares so long as its not legally required for us to do so?"
Click to expand...


You would not run into problems if you got caught with it. There is no basis to ever have to show ownership of it. The only issue would be if the gun had been reported stolen. You would want to make sure you knew who you had gotten it from. This could also happen if an FA-10 was filed as well. I have seen stolen guns purchased from gun shops!!

This is sort of my point. The state only wants to know who is SELLING guns and who is buying them out of state.

There is no "registration" of guns per se in Massachusetts.
 
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The database is useless and serves no purpose. It is incomplete. I can tell you for a fact that I have firearms listed to me that I do not own. They were sold out of state. I have firearms with the old tissue registration form that are not in the database.
 
+1 on the bad data in that database. I still don't know why they even bother with it. How many murderers has it caught? [thinking]
 
derek said:
+1 on the bad data in that database. I still don't know why they even bother with it. How many murderers has it caught? [thinking]
Click to expand...
None and never will. The database could not be used for prosecution because of it's flaws. It cannot be relied upon for any LE use.
 
Half Cocked said:
I did not realize that I, as being a police officer needed the permission and gratitude of one Scrivener to seek a legal opinion of the AG's office on a matter that quite frankly is not as black and white as ANY of us realize.
Click to expand...

Spare us your specious attempts at misdirection. At no time was it ever suggested by anyone on this forum that you needed anyone's permission to do anything.

If you feel it is your "duty" to seek an answer to a largely non-existent problem, do so. I'm looking forward to reading the Definitive Explanation of how corpses file FA-10's.
 
JonJ said:
None and never will. The database could not be used for prosecution because of it's flaws. It cannot be relied upon for any LE use.
Click to expand...


You are correct. It is useless from a Law Enforcement standpoint. To trace a gun is a nightmare.
 
JonJ said:
The database is useless and serves no purpose. It is incomplete. I can tell you for a fact that I have firearms listed to me that I do not own. They were sold out of state. I have firearms with the old tissue registration form that are not in the database.
Click to expand...

The funny thing is meeting people who have collected guns over the period of most of their life, and then they get the printout that says they own like 500 guns- when in reality they only have like 20 in their safe currently. [laugh].

Must be interesting for a PD to serve a 209A against a guy like
that... "Sir, we need you to tell us where these other 480 firearms
are" Or do they not even bother- knowing that the database is basically
a farce? [laugh]

-Mike
 
derek said:
+1 on the bad data in that database. I still don't know why they even bother with it. How many murderers has it caught? [thinking]
Click to expand...

The objective "appears" to be not to catch murderers (or other actual criminals) but probably to:

1. Create jobs for some people.

2. Create more unnecessary paperwork for honest gun-owners.
 
drgrant said:
Must be interesting for a PD to serve a 209A against a guy like
that... "Sir, we need you to tell us where these other 480 firearms
are" Or do they not even bother- knowing that the database is basically
a farce? [laugh]

-Mike
Click to expand...
The only firearm related check done is for FID/LTC not firearms.
 
I know I'm going to regret this, but... dead people have no rights under law. At least the way I understand it. Dead people also can't possess anything, hence the term "you can't take it with you". If there is no person in the house with a FID or LTC, don't the guns have to go through a FFL to be transferred to their new owner? Or is that only if someone lets their FID/LTC lapse?

Or neither?

Or both?

Gary
 
Scrivener said:
Spare us your specious attempts at misdirection. At no time was it ever suggested by anyone on this forum that you needed anyone's permission to do anything.

If you feel it is your "duty" to seek an answer to a largely non-existent problem, do so. I'm looking forward to reading the Definitive Explanation of how corpses file FA-10's.
Click to expand...

Who has ever said a corpse needed to?
 
An email that I sent to Attorney Pat Rogers who is the founder of Commonwealth Police Services. He conducts legal training for Police Departments and District Attorneys as well as the curriculum for the Police Academy. He also creates and administers the promotional exams for the local police Departments and is the author of many legal reference books for law enforcement.

Pat,

I have some confusion on firearm transfers.

Here is the scenario. An old timer who is a licensed gun owner gives a couple of firearms to his neighbor who is another licensed gun owner. The old timer has no interest in filling out an FA-10 on the transfer. Is the neighbor who receives the guns under any obligation to submit an FA-10.

C140S128A deals with the SELLER and it seems to place the obligation on the SELLER.
C140S128B deals with the purchaser and seems to read that an FA-10 only needs to be completed by the purchaser when the firearm is not obtained from a dealer OR someone authorized to sell under C140S128A which to me would be someone with a LTC/FID.

So because the neighbor received the gun from someone with a LTC I do not see anywhere that HE is obligated to file an FA-10.

Am I missing something?

Hello Detective,

The obligation here is on the seller. Not the buyer. You are correct. The buyer here is explicitly exempt under 128B. Your seller........has committed a misdemeanor. See C. 269, section 10, para (h). It happens to be arrestable in the past on probable case case as well.

You are not missing anything...............

Please email me back if you have any further questions.

Are you going to the 4 day Det seminar starting tomorrow in Taunton????
 
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E-Mail from Chief Glidden:

Chief,

I have a question regarding FA-10 transfers under C140S128A and S128B.

If a resident who possesses a LTC gives/sells a firearm to another person who possesses a LTC and the seller/giver fails to file an FA-10 is there any violation on behalf of the buyer/receiver?

My interpretation is that there would be no violation on behalf of the receiver as S128A deals with the seller and requires the seller to file an FA-10 and that S128B, which deals with the buyer/receiver, exempts them from filing an FA-10 on firearms obtained from a licensed gunsmith/dealer or a person authorized to sell under S128A (person with LTC/FID). Does the failure of the seller to file a FA-10 negate them from authorization to sell under 128A and therefore make the receiver liable under 128B?
I believe that the obligation in the above transfer lies strictly with the seller/giver who commits a crime by not filing but there is no violations on the receiver.

What are you thoughts on the matter. I have been debating this topic with several people.

Thank You,



Hi Bob,

128A requires that the seller make the report. There is no penalty under 128A. However, if the private seller under 128A does not comply with all the requirements, he could conceivably fall under 128. You are only exempt from the dealer requirements if you follow all the 128A rules, otherwise, you could be considered a dealer selling without a license. A 10 year felony!

You bring up an interesting point about 128B. The Firearms Record Bureau has always maintained it was both the buyer and seller's responsibility to fill out the FA10. But 128B does appear to say he doesn't have to fill one out if the gun is purchased from a MA dealer, or a private seller complying with 128A. Of course one could argue in your case, the seller did not comply with 128A. There's room for debate, but the main problem would be for the seller and not the buyer in your scenario. And since the 128B penalty only applies to the buyer, the 128A seller gets stuck with the felony penalty under 128. I'm going to check with EOPS to see if they have an opnion on this.

Chief Ron Glidden
 
When a person dies their stuff goes to whom it is willed too or the next of kin, right? There for they are they now rightful owners of the guns/property, right? So if they choose to give the guns/property to a friend or neighbor aren't they now responsible?
 
Half Cocked,
Thanks for the updating us, please post further updates. This has been interesting.

Gary
 
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Half Cocked said:
E-Mail from Chief Glidden
Click to expand...

Interesting, Chief Glidden seems to be waffling on the matter of 128B a little bit more than in his earlier answer in the other thread. At least it's clear now he sees my interpretation. Also note that he admits that the Firearms Record Bureau maintains my point of view as well.

Thanks for keeping us updated.
 
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Half Cocked said:
Who has ever said a corpse needed to?
Click to expand...

From the OP:

i.e. if my father passes away and he owns firearms and I take possession of them and I am licensed. Where is there a requirement to file an FA-10?
Click to expand...

By your own subsequent admissions, s. 128A applies to authorized sellers; i.e., FFL's and those holding a license under s. 129B or 131. Once again, tell us how a corpse can be "authorized" to do anything. [rolleyes]

Also from the OP:

If the old timer who lives next door to me wishes to give me a couple of firearms that he owns. Where is the requirement to file an FA-10.[?]
Click to expand...

How is your unlicensed "old timer" authorized to transfer a firearm under s. 128A OR B?

In short, the issues in your OP are not what you sent to your friends.
 
Half Cocked, at first I thought you were going off "HALF COCKED", and would be set straight by Scriv or Cross-X.

I have to admit you are a tenacious detective.

Trying to understand the laws in Massachusetts, and running into differing opinions like yours vrs others, reminds me of trying to talk to my 86 year old mother and tell her why she shouldn't vote for Ted Kennedy.

It's useless argument. She's so sure it's right nothing I say could change her mind.

Now I might be wrong about Kennedy, and I might be wrong about your point of view, but I'm willing to listen to both sides and see what we finally do, agree or disagree.

You're a stubborn SOB (I mean that in the nicest way), and I admire your persistence.

It seems I've been told many a time on this board that it wasn't the buyers responsibility to make sure the FA-10 is filed. Of course our old friend LenS, who also took this stance, is no longer with us.

I know when I acquire a new firearm, or rifle or shotgun, I want a piece of paper called an FA-10, to keep in my files to insure against future problems.

The fact that the laws are difficult to understand in Mass is more the problem. Why does it take a Detective, a Chief of Police, 5 lawyers and the attorney General to answer this simple question.

Two days ago PACKINGUNGAL posted a quick synopsis of the Florida gun laws. It was all on one page. It made complete sense, and was clear as a bell.

The problem we have here is not between you and Scriv or Cross-X and us.... the problem is a state that is trying by legislation to deprive us of the God given and Bill of Rights affirmed ability for self defense.

Welcome to the board. You don't have to be proven correct for me to enjoy the exchange.

Hope you'll stick around with us and share your point of view. You do cause me to be very confused however, I'll admit that.

Bill
 
Everyone has been looking at this problem with the firearms being transferred AFTER the death of the OP's father.

What if the OP's father transferred the gun to the OP the day BEFORE he died and then failed to complete and FA-10 before his passing?
 
In short, the issues in your OP are not what you sent to your friends.
Click to expand...

Thank you for pointing out the "discrepancy" between post #1 and posts #106/7.
 
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It is obvious from this post that some people interpret things differently than others.
All we have to do is look at how differently some people interpret the 2nd Amendment even though the language seems clear to me.
 
Since we are picking legals brains here. I have a question about C&R when I buy a firearm from out of State person, I file it in my bound book and fill out a FA10 now when I sell a firearm to an out of State FFL OR C&R I just file it in my bound book. Am I doing this right.
 

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