Firearm prohibitionist David Chipman on home-built firearms, the ATF, 2A

[DispositionMatrix]

There’s Only One Reason to Own a Ghost Gun

A ghost gun is a gun that’s manufactured absent that marked part. And really, the only reason to manufacture a gun that way is if you’re someone who wants to avoid a background check, such as a criminal or an extremist. There is no reason to do this. It’s not fun to make a frame or receiver.

It’s quite clear that ATF director isn’t making policy or law, but I think that there is a role to being able to more publicly and articulately and transparently describe the why of things that are going on. That’s not going on. As I said, with ghost guns, ATF was doing the opposite. They should have known that there was a problem brewing, and what they did was they attempted to cover up the problem by putting a good light on it—that, no, this is just what hobbyists are up to. I think any law enforcement official today would understand that ghost guns are not primarily what hobbyists are up to. They’re what criminals and extremists are doing to make our streets less safe.

Well, the pro-gun groups would argue that there should be no ATF. I think where much of the debate is today is that they believe in their constitutional view that the ownership of guns is some sort of birthright and that there is this insurrectionist belief that one of the reasons for the Second Amendment was so that the public could take up arms against the government themselves. And so I think there needs to be some kind of structure, just like we have with cars, to take a lawful product and do what we can to make sure that it’s used lawfully and doesn’t cause unintended harms.

 

[weekendracer]

I really don't have an issue with the second statement in general. At least the first part of it. He's dead ass wrong on the 2nd half of 2.0 comment. Hobbyists are probably the vast majority of 80% builders, even if they are building for criminals. It's not like it's hard to get your hands on an illegal gun, every house I went into had one, if not more than one.

The ATF should be one of the most transparent organizations in the federal government since it's regulating a right vs a privilege.

 

[FalArAk]

Only reason I see for it is if you think the ATF will come around with a stack of 4473's and collect your guns.. They can't take what they don't know you have.

Besides, isn't the cost the same as a .gov approved handgun ?

To pretend that prohibited people weren't taking advantage of it is lying to yourself... And like 100% of the gun laws, the law abiding have to pay the price for the things the criminals do.

 

[OnTheRoad]

So using his twisted logic in (1), we should be able to remove serial numbers after completing the background check. Good to know.

 

[eboos]

Here's the real reason:

 

[JRT]

Only reason I see for it is if you think the ATF will come around with a stack of 4473's and collect your guns.. They can't take what they don't know you have.

Besides, isn't the cost the same as a .gov approved handgun ?

To pretend that prohibited people weren't taking advantage of it is lying to yourself... And like 100% of the gun laws, the law abiding have to pay the price for the things the criminals do.

Most prohibited people should not be prohibited and excluded from firearm ownership but thats another discussion.

Prohibited people are most assuredly building P80 firearms but the vast majority of prohibited people are carrying stolen firearms. A P80 build isn't really inexpensive and they aren't 100% reliable without some skill in building. A stolen firearm can be obtained for far less and its going to be far more reliable. In the end, stupid gun laws don't keep guns from prohibited people.

 

[Admin]

Only reason I see for it is if you think the ATF will come around with a stack of 4473's and collect your guns.. They can't take what they don't know you have.

Besides, isn't the cost the same as a .gov approved handgun ?

To pretend that prohibited people weren't taking advantage of it is lying to yourself... And like 100% of the gun laws, the law abiding have to pay the price for the things the criminals do.

I don't think anyone here is pretending criminals aren't being criminals. Our government will eventually come for the guns, it will happen. The more guns the serfs have the better.

 

[eboos]

There’s Only One Reason to Own a Ghost Gun

I think where much of the debate is today is that they believe in their constitutional view that the ownership of guns is some sort of birthright

Crazy how it is right there in the Second Amendment. "The right of the people" - meaning preexisting and not created by the Constitution or by government "...shall not be infringed" - meaning shall not be curtailed or removed by any government action.

and that there is this insurrectionist belief that one of the reasons for the Second Amendment was so that the public could take up arms against the government themselves.

Someone clearly does not understand the historical context in which the country was founded and the Second Amendment was created.

 

[FalArAk]

Most prohibited people should not be prohibited and excluded from firearm ownership but thats another discussion.

Prohibited people are most assuredly building P80 firearms but the vast majority of prohibited people are carrying stolen firearms. A P80 build isn't really inexpensive and they aren't 100% reliable without some skill in building. A stolen firearm can be obtained for far less and its going to be far more reliable. In the end, stupid gun laws don't keep guns from prohibited people.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone should be prohibited... If they were released from prison, the powers that be deemed them safe to be in society.

When these kits first came out I couldn't believe it, just like FRT's... It was just a matter of time and these rulings shouldn't be surprising to anybody with a somewhat open mind.. Unfortunately, when you push the boundaries of legality the people in charge will push back harder.

"We the people" are not in charge, and by and large obey the master.

 

[Mesatchornug]

And really, the only reason to manufacture serialize a gun that way is if you’re someone who wants to avoid a background check know who has them, such as a criminal or an extremist government that wants to be able to collect them at will. There is no reason to do this. It’s not fun to make take a frame or receiver.

FIFY, Mr. Chipman.

But then, you knew this. Because you killed innocent women and children, to take someone's guns. Then you posed in front of the wreckage. So maybe it is a little fun?

 

[Dennis in MA]

What a tool.

"There is no reason to complete a jigsaw puzzle. Jigsaw puzzles are not fun. The only people that complete jigsaw puzzles are ones hoping it's some kiddie-porn on the picture so they can look at it. Because it isn't fun."

"There is no reason to build your own furniture. It is not fun. The only people that build their own furniture do so because they are designing a bomb or a still. No normal person builds furniture on their own."


Funny is I was watching a Brendon Hererra video the other day. I forget if it was new or old. He had a Walker Colt replica. And a conversion cylinder.

The ONLY reason "ghost guns" are an issue is that they got popular and then crims started using/making them. It isn't cheap. It's getting cheaper, but it is NOT cheap. You can find a used Glock that is far more reliable (outside of mASS, FWIW) for less money than your typical P80 build.

Same with a conversion gun. Wait until this is the only way people can get a non-registered, thru-the-mail firearm. Suddenly, it's 1885 all over again for hte ATF. A cut-down A/N Colt type gun shooting 38's isn't terribly big. They feel pretty good too. Not very accurate unless you use wadcutters, but most GB's don't care that much for accuracy. Perhaps the bad accuracy will make up for their bad aim. Two wrongs make a right and all that.

Still hells-expensive versus buying/stealing one off the street. But easy to obtain. Just like a 30secondroundclip ghost. . . . . . .gunthirtybulletsecond.

 

[Uzi2]

I honestly don't care a whit what Chipmunk thinks, believes or says. As for "extremists", HE is one of the highest order.

When you want to know the true character of a person, give them a little bit of power.

 

[DispositionMatrix]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone should be prohibited... If they were released from prison, the powers that be deemed them safe to be in society.

When these kits first came out I couldn't believe it, just like FRT's... It was just a matter of time and these rulings shouldn't be surprising to anybody with a somewhat open mind.. Unfortunately, when you push the boundaries of legality the people in charge will push back harder.

Building a firearm is not "pushing the boundaries of legality." It is complying with already-existing, albeit idiotic, law. This entire effort by the ATF is to criminalize things that are not illegal.

 

[FalArAk]

Building a firearm is not "pushing the boundaries of legality." It is complying with already-existing, albeit idiotic, law. This entire effort by the ATF is to criminalize things that are not illegal.

It isn't "building a firearm".. It is a kit that all the hard work is done already, you just finish it.... It's like saying you built a house when all you actually did was install the garage opener... C'mon man lol
All I am saying was that anybody could have seen this ruling coming from a mile away, or in this case when they first arrived on the market... Same with FRT's. I don't agree with it, but trying to pretend WHY they did it is a mystery is not being honest with yourself.

 

[DispositionMatrix]

It isn't "building a firearm".. It is a kit that all the hard work is done already, you just finish it.... It's like saying you built a house when all you actually did was install the garage opener... C'mon man lol

Not a single component in that kit is a firearm.
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/STATUTE-82/pdf/STATUTE-82-Pg1213-2.pdf

Your _feelings_ about ease of completion do not make those non-firearms firearms.

 

[JRT]

FIFY, Mr. Chipman.

But then, you knew this. Because you killed innocent women and children, to take someone's guns. Then you posed in front of the wreckage. So maybe it is a little fun?

He recently claimed the murders of the Branch Davidians was justified since they had shot down an ATF helicopter with a 50 caliber. His ability to make shit up is well documented.

Switching to the current nomination, a white gun grabber. It's not going to well internally as the current acting head of the ATF is a well respected black man who has been passed over twice, even the libs are suspect.

 

[SKumar]

IDGAF what that child killer has to think or say. He can EABOD big time.

 

[Tartakovsky]

If the US government wasn't constantly infringing on 2A rights, no one would be talking about ghost guns or care about building them. The government doesn't care about controlling the .1% of people that are criminals as they'll continue to be criminals no matter what laws they pass. They care about controlling the 99.9% that are law abiding citizens until they turn those law abiding citizens into criminals.

 

[HorizontalHunter]

I don't think anyone here is pretending criminals aren't being criminals. Our government will eventually come for the guns, it will happen. The more guns the serfs have the better.

100% it will happen. They continually chip away at our rights and set the precedent for confiscation with bump stocks.

 

[Glocklike tendencies]

I love the part about regulating guns like we do cars “so they don't do unintended harm” blah blah blah

how many deaths do our “regulated“ automobiles cause agan????

 

[Rob Boudrie]

There is the third leg of the consumer stool. You have hobbyists who enjoy the build; criminals and the law abiding subjects who view their ghost guns as insurance against a future confiscation program.

 

[Uzi2]

It isn't "building a firearm".. It is a kit that all the hard work is done already, you just finish it.... It's like saying you built a house when all you actually did was install the garage opener... C'mon man lol
All I am saying was that anybody could have seen this ruling coming from a mile away, or in this case when they first arrived on the market... Same with FRT's. I don't agree with it, but trying to pretend WHY they did it is a mystery is not being honest with yourself.

Will the government regulate pipe next? Air compressors for air guns? Gasoline? Fertilizer?

Governments do not like people being armed and able to challenge or resist their illegal dictates.....plain and simple. Whether or not a gun has a serial number doesn't mean a damned thing when the person behind the trigger is intent on harming others.

Governments ALWAYS look for ways to diminish the ability of the general public to defend themselves against the criminal element of society......AND GOVERNMENT IS USUALLY THE WORST CRIMINAL ELEMENT. They will use any means, any excuse, any item to incrementally diminish the RIGHTS of people. Governments want absolute control of people in every way shape and form.

They regulate things because they cannot (yet ) control the psyche of people.....but rest assured they are trying to.

 

[Uzi2]

I love the part about regulating guns like we do cars “so they don't do unintended harm” blah blah blah

how many deaths do our “regulated“ automobiles cause agan????

Hundreds of thousands.

 

[Dennis in MA]

Building a firearm is not "pushing the boundaries of legality." It is complying with already-existing, albeit idiotic, law. This entire effort by the ATF is to criminalize things that are not illegal.

Imagine if he felt about alcohol or tobacco or explosives like he feels about guns. "Ooooh, we can't have people making beer and wine at home. Only moonshiners do that." "We can't have people having access to explosives. They're too dangerous. Get some slaves to dig them holes in them mines. Or use my beaver-teef. I'd be good at that."

 

[Win]

A lot of the used guns I've purchased over the years have needed some minor work - some just needed a full disassembly and cleaning, a few needed new springs, one needed a new ejector. I always enjoyed figuring out why a gun wasn't working correctly and remedying the issue. I enjoy that as a hobby. I could understand someone wanting to build a gun as a hobby - why not? People enjoying building a lot of things as hobbies.

 

[FalArAk]

Not a single component in that kit is a firearm.
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/STATUTE-82/pdf/STATUTE-82-Pg1213-2.pdf

Your _feelings_ about ease of completion do not make those non-firearms firearms.

No shit it's not a firearm, did I ever say it was ?

This is like debating with a 9 year old whether corn syrup is the same as sugar.

 

[DispositionMatrix]

No shit it's not a firearm, did I ever say it was ?

This is like debating with a 9 year old whether corn syrup is the same as sugar.

You did post "It's like saying you built a house when all you actually did was install the garage opener," which would be referring to a house that's clearly already a house. So you made a false comparison.

I'll make this simple for you: a thing that is not a firearm should not be regulated as a firearm, regardless of your feelings about it.

 

[teamRR]

I think I listened to this interview, some of it is blatant garbage but he did tone the gun grabbing down more than I anticipated.

The concept that only criminals build these guns is total BS. Most of us who own them are legal owners who place them right next to serialized versions we bought via 4473 & background check in the same safe.

At the same time, the fact school age kids are in some cases building these, the fact that criminals are building these things, some in volume for trading, that they undermine current law to some degree (Brady - not that I agree with it but it's still there), it's hard to say no issue exists.

Not that the real bad guys seem to ever experience a problem finding guns to shoot each other with but I do think p80 glocks made it easier.

At the same time, if I had the choice as a legal gun owner of a serialized gun, a background check, or say pay 20% more and walk right out without any papers or maybe even a serial #, I'd pay the 20% . It just would take the ick out of gun buying.

 

[FalArAk]

You did post "It's like saying you built a house when all you actually did was install the garage opener," which would be referring to a house that's clearly already a house. So you made a false comparison.

I'll make this simple for you: a thing that is not a firearm should not be regulated as a firearm, regardless of your feelings about it.

I agree that something that isn't a firearm shouldn't be regulated as a firearm.. Pretty sure that we are closer in opinion but a lot is being lost on a chat board.

 

[Dennis in MA]

At the same time, the fact school age kids are in some cases building these, the fact that criminals are building these things, some in volume for trading, that they undermine current law to some degree (Brady - not that I agree with it but it's still there), it's hard to say no issue exists.

I'm gonna be gentle. Because I've been b-slapped for silly opinions here. And it isn't fun. I'm here to ejamacate.

"Because Donald Trump incites riots we can't have you typing what you want to type on the inter webs without a special permit. It's hard to say no issue exists."

Ask around - I'm FAR from the right-wing-nut-job or right-job wing-nut, around here. FAR from it. But as soon as we start the "well, people who 'shouldn't' have them will get them" argument, we've lost. Reread 2A.

I'll say it. It's not hard.

No

Issue

Exists!

I've built 3 (I think) P80's. All for fun. Not a single one to be "ghosty." (Although one is white - its' a stormtrooper Glock. White frame and all else black.)

I mentioned here or elsewhere earlier today about buying a $260 Pietta BP gun and a $250 conversion cylinder. No time spent milling or assembling. $510 or so and about 5 min work and you've got a workable 6-shooter. The issue is not about criminals getting guns. It's about governing the masses who are looking at these tools as non-governable.

Don't buy their lie that they're trying to keep you safe. They aren't.