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FID question

wheelgun

wheelgun

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Friend of mine would like to get a restricted FID for pepper spray, but is unwilling to do it if it requires giving fingerprints.

Are fingerprints required for this? Again, I asking about the most restrictive FID, pepper spray only.

Thanks.
 
Yup. A friend of mine just got one, one like the new style LTC's. Just like my LTC it has a fingerprint right on the back (I forget which one).

Just asking...why wouldn't they want to give prints?
 
Giving prints is an invasion of privacy that many people won't accept.

As far as "why not just get an LTC"? The person involved is not a "gun" person and would not want an LTC. Besides, FID's are "shall issue" so there 's no question regarding the politics of the Chief in town.
 
An FID restricted is also $25 initially and free to renew for life, and there's no safety course to be taken.
 
Ninsho said:
I'm pretty sure thats not true anymore.
Click to expand...

Better quote your source then!

It's written as noted above in MGLs. That's not to say that some chief somewhere gets "inventive" and creates his own new, improved law, approved only by him! [rolleyes] It's happened before.
 
Guess I was wrong, I wasn't paying attention to the FID info when I took my safety course and something got lost in translation. LTC-A all the way. [smile]
 
I take it then that this friend has never served in the military, held a security clearance or worked as a teacher.

Ken
 
RKG said:
Why?
Click to expand...

Why? Because once the Government has your prints (or any other entity, including retail stores, banks, etc.), they have them forever.

The information can be used in a multitude of ways, tracking your activities, gaining access to secure databases, etc.

And unlike a situation where your credit card number has been stolen, you cannot "close" your account and get a new account number. Not unless you're willing to have some surgery done on your fingers. [wink]
 
wheelgun said:
Why? Because once the Government has your prints (or any other entity, including retail stores, banks, etc.), they have them forever.

The information can be used in a multitude of ways, tracking your activities, gaining access to secure databases, etc.

And unlike a situation where your credit card number has been stolen, you cannot "close" your account and get a new account number. Not unless you're willing to have some surgery done on your fingers. [wink]
Click to expand...

You lost me at the point where someone uses a set of finger prints to track my activities. It might work if I used my fingerprints as a signature on checks, credit card purchases and the like, but as long as I sign my name like a normal person they'd seem to be pretty useless. OK, maybe if I were to use one of those biometric lock boxes for my guns or important papers, but since I'm a cheap bastard and prefer reliability to bleeding edge technology, I just use an old fashion key. I've had dozens of sets of prints in the system since I raised my hand 40+ years ago, and never lost a minute of sleep over it, except for several months worth thanks to Uncle Sam.

Ken
 
wheelgun said:
Why? Because once the Government has your prints (or any other entity, including retail stores, banks, etc.), they have them forever.

The information can be used in a multitude of ways, tracking your activities, gaining access to secure databases, etc.

And unlike a situation where your credit card number has been stolen, you cannot "close" your account and get a new account number. Not unless you're willing to have some surgery done on your fingers. [wink]
Click to expand...

1. True. Also true of your likeness (photo), name, address, adjusted gross income, and whether or not your dogs have been spayed.

2. Doubtful. The only way to employ a purloined fingerprint in order to falsely satisfy an ID screen is so obscure that anyone who could do that could doubtless wreak equal harm without access to a fingerprint.

3. True, but irrelevant.
 
OK, rant on:

You guys are WAY behind the times. 5-10 years ago I'd agree that having fingerprints on file (with the Government) wasn't much of a risk unless you were planning to commit a crime.

However, today fingerprint "readers" are starting to appear at the retail level. Stores, banks, employers, are beginining to actually use such devices - it's no longer just something you read in Popular Science. Heck, they're now using them to scan each kid entering school buildings. Some people are even using them on their personal PC's in lieu of passwords.

Supposedly these "readers" don't actually store your fingerprint. They store some kind of compressed version, based on a few key "biometric" aspects of the print. Nonetheless, they store SOMETHING, and there's no way to verify exactly what.

I don't know about you, but I've personally been involved with at least four instances where my personal credit card information has been stolen from some retailer or business. I've had to close my accounts numerous times and get new cards and account numbers.

So what are you going to do when they steal your prints from the retailer's database? I mean, it's absolutely no different than stealing credit card data. The prints (or equivalent) are stored in a database just like anything else. They're just as vulnerable to being stolen. The problem is, once stolen there's nothing you can do about it. You can't close your "account". You can't change your PIN number.

These readers can be purchased by anyone (just like credit card readers). Their internal algorithms can be easily reverse-engineered to allow unscrupulous people to produce a "pseudo print" Actually, I expect the algorithm would be in the public sector as open source, becoming an industry standard if it hasn't already. Imagine someone producing a plastic finger that produces the same match on a reader as YOUR finger (just like producing a phony credit card).

The bottom line is that once your prints (or biometric equivalents) are out there in retail/commercial databases, there's no turning back. And I'm intentionally excluding Government use here, since it's extremely rare compared to the commercial sector. How many times a week do your have your prints scanned for a new LTC? Compared with all the banks, drugstores, supermarkets etc that most people visit regularly, it's insignificant.

All it takes is for one creep to steal information from one store that has sloppy security and you're in trouble. Most people are VERY sloppy when it comes to security. How many times a week do you hear a story about some employee that had a laptop containing unencrypted sensitive data stolen out of their car? Such data should have never been allowed on a portable PC in the first place.

As I stated in a previous post, I was willing to provide my prints to the Government (in this case for my LTC), but I would never put my finger in a reader at a bank, retailer, or employer. They have no right to such data and they're not competent to keep it secure.

rant off.
 
wheelgun said:
...However, today fingerprint "readers" are starting to appear at the retail level....
Click to expand...

Only place I've ever seen this would be a couple of gun store for the instant background check.

What kinda shops you talking about ? [thinking]
 
RKG said:
1. True. Also true of your likeness (photo), name, address, adjusted gross income, and whether or not your dogs have been spayed.

2. Doubtful. The only way to employ a purloined fingerprint in order to falsely satisfy an ID screen is so obscure that anyone who could do that could doubtless wreak equal harm without access to a fingerprint.

3. True, but irrelevant.
Click to expand...

1. Your photo is not used for financial transactions. Yes, name and address are used, but often in conjunction with a PIN. In this case, your print would be acting as an irrevocable PIN.

2. Dream on. Reverse engineering of any broadly deployed device or algorithm is standard these days. Unless the data is encrypted, it's vulnerable. And the commercial industry has little motivation to care about security of your personal data, never mind actually employ encryption.

3. You clearly haven't thought this through to call it irrelevant. Either that, or you don't realize the potential given today's broad use of such technology in conjunction with extremely lax security.
 
yes You are correct that it is none of there business....but it i seasier to grap a cup or pencil ...anything and lift a print if they wanted your print.... Think about all the things you touch each day....!!!!!

And for those who work with their hands... My prints change weekly...if not daily...cuts..chemicals... heck ,they say bleach will do enough damage , to alter a print!!!
 
 
Last edited:
I do know of banks asking for an ink print on NON account holders cashing a check at the bank drawn from... Commerce Bank
 
wheelgun said:
1. Your photo is not used for financial transactions. Yes, name and address are used, but often in conjunction with a PIN. In this case, your print would be acting as an irrevocable PIN.
Click to expand...
Untrue - my credit union offers to take a photo of you and attach it to your account so that you can cash a check without having to show a DL or other form of ID.
 
Imagine someone producing a plastic finger that produces the same match on a reader as YOUR finger (just like producing a phony credit card).
Click to expand...
Mythbusters (Discover Channel) managed to lift a print from a CD and make an artificial finger sufficient to open a fingerprint controlled lock.
 
I too read about all sort of fantastic whiz-bang technology in magazines and professional journals. OTOH, I rarely if ever manage to actually see any of this stuff being used in real life. Sure, maybe there's some third-cousin once-removed that shows up 25-30 years later, but most of it vanishes into dreams. When was the last time that your walked into a store and had then insist on your fingerprint in order to make a purchase? When was the last time you took your kid to school and the demanded a retinal scan before they'd let you into the building? Funny, but as much as I read about that block of ice, and hear that it's just the tip of the iceberg, I rarely if ever see so much as a bottle of chilled water in the real world.

Ken
 

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