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- Thread starter Ray-500
- Start date
I am all for free enterprise so businesses can charge whatever they want or even 'pass' on making the transfer because of how the state AG acts (this happened to me recently).
Free enterprise also dictates you take your business somewhere else if you don't like it.![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
Yet, when my recent transfer went through my second choice FFL I ended up buying a case of .223 while I was there (no cheap purchase as you all know too well). So, the dealer that didn't want the hassle also missed out on a sale. Any good retailer should know once the customer is in the store, the odds of making a sale GREATLY increases.
Free enterprise also dictates you take your business somewhere else if you don't like it.
Yet, when my recent transfer went through my second choice FFL I ended up buying a case of .223 while I was there (no cheap purchase as you all know too well). So, the dealer that didn't want the hassle also missed out on a sale. Any good retailer should know once the customer is in the store, the odds of making a sale GREATLY increases.
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I have looked into it. It does appear that a dealer should collect the tax.
however, if you have a copy of this "letter," then please send it to me. I would appreciate it.
Thanks
dwarven1
Lonely Mountain Arms
Time for both of you to find new FFLs to use. Can't help you, Ray, as I'm in MA, and IIRC, Jack, you're not real close to where I live, but I will tell folks - again - that Mike at TiteGroup Sporting in Northboro and Richie at Callaghan's in Marlboro are both stand up guys and charge a flat fee, and they know that they don't charge sales tax on transfers.
TiteGroup Sporting gets $40 for a transfer, and Callaghan's gets $25. (but Richie is on his summer hours now - Wed - Fri, 10:00 - 6:30).
Ross
That's what I was thinking and why I asked the question....to see how much of a "norm" this is.
At the time, I had two items coming in from Guns America...both were not-currently-produced S&W items. Went in to pick up the first, and that's when I found out about the 10%. I objected, and in all fairness, they did not charge me the 10% on the first one....but stated it would be due on the second. The item was already on the way and there was no way to stop it, so I did end up paying the fee.
According to this dealer, a lot of shops are charging not only the 10%, but as much as 15 to 20. Grin, outside of calling all dealers, the best way to find out what's happening is to ask the question in a forum such as this.
Thanks to all for the info.
That's what it looks like, and the end result will be a double markup being paid. I have nothing pending right now and no immediate purchases planned. When I do, will definitely call various RI dealers to see what the story is.
the_shootist
Banned
Sorry for misrepresenting what I meant. Clearly whining wasn't the right word and I apologize. The idea was to simply make known who is practicing this type of business so everyone here can make a sound decision where you want to send your business rather than be a victim of it.
Give this place a try. Interesting shop and seem like straight shooters (pun intended).
Foster Bear Arms Trading Post Inc
120 Danielson Pike, Foster, RI 02825
(401) 647-4867
You might do a Search here on NES about them. I'm pretty sure that I wrote up some info on them a year or so ago.
Just as a fore-warning. I have only bought ammo there, no guns. But I've talked with the owner at length a couple of times and he seems like a decent guy.
If all he's doing is the transfer, charging any sales tax is ILLEGAL! [I stand by that statement until someone shows me a MA DOR TIR stating otherwise.]
I'd recommend reporting him to the Sales Tax Unit at MA DOR . . . that's the way to stop this BS (if it is illegal as I contend, they will investigate and perhaps prosecute). For a non-sale, I do not see any way for a vendor to report (pay) this money to the state, so some may just be pocketing it (no way to tell who or if) . . . that's based on the ST-9Q form that I get sent by MA DOR to fill out each quarter. [Line 1 of said form asks "gross sales" numbers and DOR expects that to show up on the vendor's state tax return as income. If vendor doesn't sell the product and reports it as "gross sales" they'd be responsible for income tax on "income" they never received. Makes no sense. I also don't believe that there is a "special sales tax form" just for gun dealers . . . and if so, there would be a TIR on it.]
If it is an "in-state purchase" you should be paying the shipping dealer (including sales tax at point of purchase). If it is a private individual you are buying from, you should be paying the "use tax" yourself to the state, probably on your Form 1 Income Tax form. So there are legal mechanisms to pay the tax, they just don't involve the dealer who is merely doing a transfer.
But a "transfer" is NOT a "sale of product". You pay ~$25.00 for paperwork (defined as "services" and thus NON-taxable wrt sales tax). You paid the shipping person/dealer direct. Therefore Dealer B is NOT entitled to collect sales tax . . . and as I stated, doing so would require him to show the VALUE of the gun as "money collected" (gross receipts) on his books for income tax purposes.
Having been a vendor that collects sales tax for the state of MA for 40 years, I have a clue on how that system works.
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Sales tax is intended to tax a transaction when the consumer is purchasing it. This distinguishes the tax from VAT. MGL 64H Section 1 defines a taxable event as the transfer of title and/or possession. It is unclear whether you would be charged twice if a Massachusetts vendor had shipped your gun to another vendor for you to pick up.
Len does not understand how net income is calculated or the definition of taxable sales and gross sales. Gross Sales does not reconcile to Net Sales on Schedule C or Form 355 without making adjustments. The idea that it would match perfectly is a non-starter. Just consider that repair services are not tangible personal property and would not be included on line 1 of a sales and use tax return. Or think about a gun store making transactions in multiple states.
I would also point out that I was unable to find a "sales tax unit" in their roster. I would suggest finding the actual place to make a complaint prior to issuing advice against the lawful dealers of the state, which be the area designated with receiving and processing such complaints. I am sure that in this state that we have a unit for receiving false complaints about lawful citizens.
![[grin]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/041.gif "Grin [grin]")
bill
In fact, I would say there should be a sticky. A ten percent dealer thread.
IMO that fee is very excessive. Sure they have the right to do it, but we have the right to inform each other and use other FFL's to not get ripped off.
It is a rip off. No two ways about that.
the doctor,
A query off of DOR's website would give anyone the info and proper channels to file a complaint. A response about improperly charging sales tax on a US Flag (that was Wal-Mart) and a gun dealer (gun safe) provided me that info a number of years ago, but that Email is buried in my archives and would take more time than it's worth to dig out.
Dealers can do what they want . . . until someone complains . . . and if they are in the wrong, they may get nailed by the state/feds (depending on the situation).
As I stated to you in the Email response, if a dealer making many such transfers, shows $100K+ as "gross receipts" in Line 1 of an ST-9, but NOT on the "gross receipts" part of his/her Income Tax form, it's likely to raise some serious attention at DOR. I never said that the numbers had to match. [e.g. In my case, my businesses are much more about services than product, so I don't report service income in Line 1 of ST-9, just "hard goods" and thus my "gross receipts" on Schedule C is much higher than the number shown on ST-9.]
You even raised the possibility that a buyer might have to pay sales tax TWICE if it was shipped from a MA Dealer to another MA Dealer. That should give you (and the rest of us) a clue that something is wrong with the transfer FFL collecting tax on monies not received and value arbitrarily set by said dealer. Sounds to me like you are trying to justify a questionable (at best) practice by yourself or a friend of yours.
"Sales Tax Unit" is s poor name, but if you look at the "cover sheet" (contains Form AI-1) that comes with your Sales Tax forms, right at the top it reads as follows:
Mass Department of Revenue
PO Box 7011
Sales Tax Unit
Boston, MA 02204-7011
So nit-pick away, but I didn't pick "sales tax unit" out of thin air.
As a vendor, I understand what they expect of us, but IANAL and not an accountant. The few times I've had questions, I've asked via DOR website and received responses that were reasonable.
I'm done on this topic!
A query off of DOR's website would give anyone the info and proper channels to file a complaint. A response about improperly charging sales tax on a US Flag (that was Wal-Mart) and a gun dealer (gun safe) provided me that info a number of years ago, but that Email is buried in my archives and would take more time than it's worth to dig out.
Dealers can do what they want . . . until someone complains . . . and if they are in the wrong, they may get nailed by the state/feds (depending on the situation).
As I stated to you in the Email response, if a dealer making many such transfers, shows $100K+ as "gross receipts" in Line 1 of an ST-9, but NOT on the "gross receipts" part of his/her Income Tax form, it's likely to raise some serious attention at DOR. I never said that the numbers had to match. [e.g. In my case, my businesses are much more about services than product, so I don't report service income in Line 1 of ST-9, just "hard goods" and thus my "gross receipts" on Schedule C is much higher than the number shown on ST-9.]
You even raised the possibility that a buyer might have to pay sales tax TWICE if it was shipped from a MA Dealer to another MA Dealer. That should give you (and the rest of us) a clue that something is wrong with the transfer FFL collecting tax on monies not received and value arbitrarily set by said dealer. Sounds to me like you are trying to justify a questionable (at best) practice by yourself or a friend of yours.
"Sales Tax Unit" is s poor name, but if you look at the "cover sheet" (contains Form AI-1) that comes with your Sales Tax forms, right at the top it reads as follows:
Mass Department of Revenue
PO Box 7011
Sales Tax Unit
Boston, MA 02204-7011
So nit-pick away, but I didn't pick "sales tax unit" out of thin air.
As a vendor, I understand what they expect of us, but IANAL and not an accountant. The few times I've had questions, I've asked via DOR website and received responses that were reasonable.
I'm done on this topic!
