FA-10 forms

[Independence Arms]

Do you have any idea what the street value of this mountain is?

 

[drgrant]

What was the movie that had the kid on a bicycle keep showing up screaming TWO DOLLARS? Something to do with skiing I think.

 

[cekim]

Do you have any idea what the street value of this mountain is?

I can't feel my right arm!

 

[Coyote33]

If they really want people to use the E FA10, why not make it easy: instead of having to print it out right away make it so you can simply have a copy go to your email???

Great idea. It should send one to you, the other party, and the state all at the same time.

That, or just get rid of it completely!

The PDF forms we've been discussing ... and were originally furnished by the FRB. If YOU decided to print new, serialized forms essentially identical to the original it would be illegal if for no other reason than the statute requires submission on forms furnished by the FRB..

Then I guess there is no problem here, is there?

 

[center442]

Since the CHSB is still using the serialized paper forms, I assume that the scanning unit is still in existence. They must still have all their equipment, software, and must still be paying their employees. I'm guessing that they also have a few cartons of the "official" forms sitting in their offices.

The unserialized paper forms, printed from the PDF that is floating around here and elsewhere, has all of the information that the serialized forms do. It's an exact copy, except for the freaking serial number. If the CHSB receives an unnumbered form, how difficult is it for them to take a blank official form, type in the number from that form, and then discard the blank official form? They have to run all paper forms through the OCR software anyway. How long can it take to type out a serial number? Let me give it a try: F483956. It took me about 3 seconds, and that included hitting the shift key for the capital letter.

That has to be way less time then mailing the "unacceptable" form back to the person who mailed it in, not to mention that it doesn't involve paying for the envelope and postage.

This whole serial number bullcrap has nothing to do with the form itself. It is just another lesson in teaching MA residents to kneel and kiss the King's ring.

 

[namedpipes]

Since the CHSB is still using the serialized paper forms, I assume that the scanning unit is still in existence. They must still have all their equipment, software, and must still be paying their employees. I'm guessing that they also have a few cartons of the "official" forms sitting in their offices.

The unserialized paper forms, printed from the PDF that is floating around here and elsewhere, has all of the information that the serialized forms do. It's an exact copy, except for the freaking serial number. If the CHSB receives an unnumbered form, how difficult is it for them to take a blank official form, type in the number from that form, and then discard the blank official form? They have to run all paper forms through the OCR software anyway. How long can it take to type out a serial number? Let me give it a try: F483956. It took me about 3 seconds, and that included hitting the shift key for the capital letter.

That has to be way less time then mailing the "unacceptable" form back to the person who mailed it in, not to mention that it doesn't involve paying for the envelope and postage.

This whole serial number bullcrap has nothing to do with the form itself. It is just another lesson in teaching MA residents to kneel and kiss the King's ring.

But we HAVE to obey! It's for our own good!

 

[Amazon]

stopped at my local PD this morning for an FA10, and the officer on duty had no idea what it was, so obviously they didn't have any.

WTF

 

[DavidC77]

stopped at my local PD this morning for an FA10, and the officer on duty had no idea what it was, so obviously they didn't have any.

WTF

That's the same answer I got from Easthampton awhile back, they had no clue what it was, or they are told to act dumb and say they don't know what it is.

At least when I went to Southampton they had three of them, he would only give me one though, he said he wanted to save them incase someone else needed one.

I have to go to my local PD soon, I'll ask there if they have any.

 

[oilspill]

Barnstable PD has the new serialized single page forms - keep in mind the records dept is only open weekdays (8-4 I think).

 

[Coyote33]

Barnstable PD has the new serialized single page forms - keep in mind the records dept is only open weekdays (8-4 I think).

So, is this the official word? Should all police departments have these? If so, who do they contact, and what do they ask for? This would be good information to have, to expedite "getting it done".

 

[Len-2A Training]

So, is this the official word? Should all police departments have these? If so, who do they contact, and what do they ask for? This would be good information to have, to expedite "getting it done".

I know that there have been tons of posts on this issue, but I'll repeat this again . . .

- ALL PDs have been advised at least twice (most likely Email) from CJIS that they are SUPPOSED TO REQUEST pads of FA-10s (1 sheet/transaction) from CJIS to give out to those that request them.
- These new FA-10 forms and the old 3-part forms are the ONLY ones that CJIS will accept via Snail Mail. They really want us to use the e-FA-10 system however and all "push" goes to that effort.
- CJIS will no longer send any FA-10 forms to mere subjects, period! [Only exception is with the reject letters for those filing photocopies or PDF forms.]
- If you visit a PD that tells you that they don't have the forms or tries to give you photocopies, you can call CJIS and request that they mail the proper forms to that PD! [Telling a PD that they should request them probably will go nowhere as most don't really care to be giving forms out anyway.]


Since there are some here on NES that like to shoot the messenger, I'll probably get crap for the following . . . but here are the reasons for the above as given to me by Jason Guida in a recent phone conversation.

- CJIS budget keeps getting cut, Jason now has less than 1/2 the number of employees (now 4) that he had 4 years ago when he took the job.
- The scanning software is ancient, developed back in 1998 and there is no money to upgrade it.
- Oftentimes printers print pages just a hair off proper registration. CJIS scanning software can't handle pages that aren't perfectly lined up and thus requires an employee to hand-type in the information off the form.
- They do use the S/N for tracking purposes. [I suggested and still don't understand (like most here) why CJIS can't slap a S/N sticker on a form just like Red Cross does when you donate blood!]
- Jason reads NES and is upset when he sees posts where people mention/show that they have scooped up many forms from PDs. The hoarding of forms costs CJIS money for printing more than they think that they need and upsets them. Therefore, they have changed policy and will no longer mail them to us directly.

That's it in a nutshell.
Signed,
Just the messenger!

 

[MtRiverCharlie]

I know that there have been tons of posts on this issue, but I'll repeat this again . . .

- ALL PDs have been advised at least twice (most likely Email) from CJIS that they are SUPPOSED TO REQUEST pads of FA-10s (1 sheet/transaction) from CJIS to give out to those that request them.
- These new FA-10 forms and the old 3-part forms are the ONLY ones that CJIS will accept via Snail Mail. They really want us to use the e-FA-10 system however and all "push" goes to that effort.
- CJIS will no longer send any FA-10 forms to mere subjects, period! [Only exception is with the reject letters for those filing photocopies or PDF forms.]
- If you visit a PD that tells you that they don't have the forms or tries to give you photocopies, you can call CJIS and request that they mail the proper forms to that PD! [Telling a PD that they should request them probably will go nowhere as most don't really care to be giving forms out anyway.]


Since there are some here on NES that like to shoot the messenger, I'll probably get crap for the following . . . but here are the reasons for the above as given to me by Jason Guida in a recent phone conversation.

- CJIS budget keeps getting cut, Jason now has less than 1/2 the number of employees (now 4) that he had 4 years ago when he took the job.
- The scanning software is ancient, developed back in 1998 and there is no money to upgrade it.
- Oftentimes printers print pages just a hair off proper registration. CJIS scanning software can't handle pages that aren't perfectly lined up and thus requires an employee to hand-type in the information off the form.
- They do use the S/N for tracking purposes. [I suggested and still don't understand (like most here) why CJIS can't slap a S/N sticker on a form just like Red Cross does when you donate blood!]
- Jason reads NES and is upset when he sees posts where people mention/show that they have scooped up many forms from PDs. The hoarding of forms costs CJIS money for printing more than they think that they need and upsets them. Therefore, they have changed policy and will no longer mail them to us directly.

That's it in a nutshell.
Signed,
Just the messenger!

So... what you're saying is we should keep hoarding forms as to bleed this state apparatus dry?

 

[chinalfr]

If Jason read this, please make the FA10 form WIDELY available. Hoarding only happen when the FA10 forms are scarce to obtain. By limiting access to FA10 forms will not help.

Sent from iPhone 5 using Forum Runner

 

[M1911]

If Jason read this, please make the FA10 form WIDELY available. Hoarding only happen when the FA10 forms are scarce to obtain. By limiting access to FA10 forms will not help.

Exactly. If I knew that I could always obtain an FA-10 at any police station, then I wouldn't need to hoard them. But many/most police stations that I've been to don't have them, so I will hoard them.

The electronic system simply won't work. I do my transfers at gun clubs. Gun clubs don't have public wifi. It isn't feasible to use the system on a smartphone. I won't take someone that I don't know to my home, and doing a transfer at a Starbucks would result in the police being called. So the electronic system simply won't work for me. Paper works.

 

[cekim]

Exactly. If I new that I could always obtain an FA-10 at any police station, then I wouldn't need to hoard them. But many/most police stations that I've been to don't have them, so I will hoard them.

The electronic system simply won't work. I do my transfers at gun clubs. Gun clubs don't have public wifi. It isn't feasible to use the system on a smartphone. I won't take someone that I don't know to my home, and doing a transfer at a Starbucks would result in the police being called. So the electronic system simply won't work for me. Paper works.

What is really absurd about this, is that what the CHSB/FRB is after is information. Why do they care how that information gets to them?

When I file a form with the ATF, I download a PDF, print it, then fax or mail it in.

This just smells like everything else this agency does which is intended to obstruct, intimidate and annoy gun owners with absolutely no demonstrable benefit shown.

 

[drgrant]

If Jason read this, please make the FA10 form WIDELY available. Hoarding only happen when the FA10 forms are scarce to obtain. By limiting access to FA10 forms will not help.

Like Guida cares. IMHO he relishes in our plight, frankly.

What is his definition of "hoarding"? So is a C&R collector that needs 10 forms a month is "hoarding"? (after all, the law requires him to register those guns. ) The fact of the matter is Guida does not care. He wants you to suffer, and that's why his agency is playing these games with us (and with the PDs. ). All these reasons he has supplied for not having proper distribution of the forms are just excuses. This was pretty much confirmed when 7mmmag went to Chelsea and he couldn't even get the forms in person. There is NO REASON for Guida to have not given him a few forms on the spot, other than the fact that Guida is being intentionally difficult. This whole business of "Have the PD ask for them and we will send them some" is code for "I'm going to send you on a wild goosechase/circle jerk to get you out of my hair". Guida knows that the PDs have bigger things to worry about than FA-10 forms, so basically he is trying to pass the buck on them and more or less phase out the form through "natural attrition" rather than having his fingerprints on the issue.

This whole problem is incredibly lame.

-Mike

 

[cekim]

Like Guida cares. IMHO he relishes in our plight, frankly.

This whole problem is incredibly lame.

Yes and yes, this whole function is a shameful waste of resources and offensive to our rights, 2A, 4A and 5A.

Fixing that requires getting a real governor and/or beating back this nonsense in the courts. In the mean time, they should just try not to be obnoxious. I guess on the bright side, they are ensuring there are enough dollars to fund the process of addressing these abuses in the courts.

 

[chinalfr]

Like Guida cares. IMHO he relishes in our plight, frankly.

What is his definition of "hoarding"? So is a C&R collector that needs 10 forms a month is "hoarding"? (after all, the law requires him to register those guns. ) The fact of the matter is Guida does not care. He wants you to suffer, and that's why his agency is playing these games with us (and with the PDs. ). All these reasons he has supplied for not having proper distribution of the forms are just excuses. This was pretty much confirmed when 7mmmag went to Chelsea and he couldn't even get the forms in person. There is NO REASON for Guida to have not given him a few forms on the spot, other than the fact that Guida is being intentionally difficult. This whole business of "Have the PD ask for them and we will send them some" is code for "I'm going to send you on a wild goosechase/circle jerk to get you out of my hair". Guida knows that the PDs have bigger things to worry about than FA-10 forms, so basically he is trying to pass the buck on them and more or less phase out the form through "natural attrition" rather than having his fingerprints on the issue.

This whole problem is incredibly lame.

-Mike

I agreed that. Having being a puppet of Deval, it's his job to screw us (legal gun owner). But I'll take a shot as he might have mole hiding on NES reading how we praised his work.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Exactly. If I knew that I could always obtain an FA-10 at any police station, then I wouldn't need to hoard them. But many/most police stations that I've been to don't have them, so I will hoard them.

The electronic system simply won't work. I do my transfers at gun clubs. Gun clubs don't have public wifi. It isn't feasible to use the system on a smartphone. I won't take someone that I don't know to my home, and doing a transfer at a Starbucks would result in the police being called. So the electronic system simply won't work for me. Paper works.

I'm with you on this and made this case (about where xfrs happen) when talking with him. Didn't seem to compute.

Thereare two alternatives that he told me about:

- Get person to give you needed info over the phone/Email in advance, do online transaction and print out forms to take to the actual transfer. Problem is many won't give you info that way. [Jason tells me that there is an online way to cancel a transaction that doesn't happen for whatever reason.]
- Write down info at transfer, go home and create online FA-10 and then print/copy to other party. No signatures this way, but he doesn't care about that as e-system doesn't require pen signatures.

What is really absurd about this, is that what the CHSB/FRB is after is information. Why do they care how that information gets to them?

When I file a form with the ATF, I download a PDF, print it, then fax or mail it in.

This just smells like everything else this agency does which is intended to obstruct, intimidate and annoy gun owners with absolutely no demonstrable benefit shown.

Since they are down to 4 employees (from 9) I suspect (my assumption here) that they don't have the manpower to process everything on paper, thus the desire to do e-forms. You can do more with fewer employees this way.


Jason has seen posts offering forms to folks, I'm sure that he's seen Andy's pile of forms by now, mentions of giving them out as Karma, etc. He interprets this as us doing unnecessary hoarding and I think the result of no longer sending them to residents directly is a knee-jerk reaction to this.

 

[cekim]

Since they are down to 4 employees (from 9) I suspect (my assumption here) that they don't have the manpower to process everything on paper, thus the desire to do e-forms. You can do more with fewer employees this way.


Jason has seen posts offering forms to folks, I'm sure that he's seen Andy's pile of forms by now, mentions of giving them out as Karma, etc. He interprets this as us doing unnecessary hoarding and I think the result of no longer sending them to residents directly is a knee-jerk reaction to this.

Hold on, let me get out my tiny pity fiddle...

If he cannot perform the function they have designed, then they need to change the function. The easy solution given that they cannot demonstrate a reduction in crime from their activities and they are of questionable constitutional validity is to stop doing them.

Are you honestly telling me that providing a well scanned (rather than the poorly scanned version they have provided) copy with or without a serial number makes any material difference?

If the issue is the scanning itself and the recognition, then they need to provide a far more professional, secure and transparent online interface than that which exists today. Between the transactional data security and possibility of identity theft, that system is a nightmare in the waiting for someone.

 

[M1911]

I'm with you on this and made this case (about where xfrs happen) when talking with him. Didn't seem to compute.
- Get person to give you needed info over the phone/Email in advance, do online transaction and print out forms to take to the actual transfer. Problem is many won't give you info that way. [Jason tells me that there is an online way to cancel a transaction that doesn't happen for whatever reason.]

Do the electronic transfer before actually doing the transfer? Not only will I not do that, but I suspect that would actually be illegal. Are you not signing an affidavit when you sign an FA-10? Would that not also be true of the electronic system? More than a few of us have had screw ups happen at transfers where people don't show or back out and if you are the buyer, you have no guarantee that the seller will properly cancel the transaction. In contrast, with a paper form if the seller doesn't show up or you don't like the gun, then you simply don't complete the paper form and nothing goes to the state.

Write down info at transfer, go home and create online FA-10 and then print/copy to other party. No signatures this way, but he doesn't care about that as e-system doesn't require pen signatures.

Do double the work just for him plus risk all of the privacy issues with the electronic system? No, Jason, not going to happen.

Since they are down to 4 employees (from 9) I suspect (my assumption here) that they don't have the manpower to process everything on paper, thus the desire to do e-forms. You can do more with fewer employees this way.

That doesn't change the fact that the e-system is simply unworkable. We don't have wifi where we do transfers. The places that do have wifi are not suitable for doing a transfer. So he has spent a great deal of state time and money creating a system that is fundamentally unusable because he simply did not understand the users' requirements before building it.

Jason, you could have avoided all of this crap if you had simply been open about what you wanted to do and solicited input from gun owners (the users of this system) prior to building it.

 

[beaker]

How about an NES upgrade crew for the antiquated system? There are lots of IT people on NES, we could take up a collection to implement equipment. Would they go for it if offered?

I know that there have been tons of posts on this issue, but I'll repeat this again . . .

- ALL PDs have been advised at least twice (most likely Email) from CJIS that they are SUPPOSED TO REQUEST pads of FA-10s (1 sheet/transaction) from CJIS to give out to those that request them.
- These new FA-10 forms and the old 3-part forms are the ONLY ones that CJIS will accept via Snail Mail. They really want us to use the e-FA-10 system however and all "push" goes to that effort.
- CJIS will no longer send any FA-10 forms to mere subjects, period! [Only exception is with the reject letters for those filing photocopies or PDF forms.]
- If you visit a PD that tells you that they don't have the forms or tries to give you photocopies, you can call CJIS and request that they mail the proper forms to that PD! [Telling a PD that they should request them probably will go nowhere as most don't really care to be giving forms out anyway.]


Since there are some here on NES that like to shoot the messenger, I'll probably get crap for the following . . . but here are the reasons for the above as given to me by Jason Guida in a recent phone conversation.

- CJIS budget keeps getting cut, Jason now has less than 1/2 the number of employees (now 4) that he had 4 years ago when he took the job.
- The scanning software is ancient, developed back in 1998 and there is no money to upgrade it.
- Oftentimes printers print pages just a hair off proper registration. CJIS scanning software can't handle pages that aren't perfectly lined up and thus requires an employee to hand-type in the information off the form.
- They do use the S/N for tracking purposes. [I suggested and still don't understand (like most here) why CJIS can't slap a S/N sticker on a form just like Red Cross does when you donate blood!]
- Jason reads NES and is upset when he sees posts where people mention/show that they have scooped up many forms from PDs. The hoarding of forms costs CJIS money for printing more than they think that they need and upsets them. Therefore, they have changed policy and will no longer mail them to us directly.

That's it in a nutshell.
Signed,
Just the messenger!

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

[cekim]

How about an NES upgrade crew for the antiquated system? There are lots of IT people on NES, we could take up a collection to implement equipment. Would they go for it if offered?

I would hope no gun owner would be interested in bailing out this broken system?

They need to suffer the full consequences of creating pointless bureaucracies. Did you check the box to pay the optional higher tax rate too?

 

[M1911]

How about an NES upgrade crew for the antiquated system? There are lots of IT people on NES, we could take up a collection to implement equipment. Would they go for it if offered?

Give the state my labor for free to perpetuate a system that is designed solely for the harassment of law-abiding gun owners? Um, no.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Jason, you could have avoided all of this crap if you had simply been open about what you wanted to do and solicited input from gun owners (the users of this system) prior to building it.

I agree 1000% here. Had he solicited input from some of us gun owners/collectors, things could have gone much smoother.

Basically, I don't think that the gov't on any level wants the help or input of citizens. We've gone way too far into the "we're from the gov't, we know what's best for you" mentality!

How about an NES upgrade crew for the antiquated system? There are lots of IT people on NES, we could take up a collection to implement equipment. Would they go for it if offered?

The funny thing is that in the mid-1990s, the RMV revamped their entire computer system by using free labor. I knew some programmers who were out of work and basically did the job as part of a fellowship whereby they learned some marketable skills, the state got free work and the citizens got some improvements in RMV transactions.

I don't think that anyone in state gov't is smart enough to go this route these days.

It certainly could be done again and there are lots of unemployed, but skilled people out there that would be thrilled at the opportunity to add to their resume!

 

[chinalfr]

How about an NES upgrade crew for the antiquated system? There are lots of IT people on NES, we could take up a collection to implement equipment. Would they go for it if offered?
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

I would hope no gun owner would be interested in bailing out this broken system?

They need to suffer the full consequences of creating pointless bureaucracies. Did you check the box to pay the optional higher tax rate too?

I only charged one billion dollars.

 

[drgrant]

Do the electronic transfer before actually doing the transfer? Not only will I not do that, but I suspect that would actually be illegal.

I don't see why it would be illegal, particularly if the law is invoked because it still has that 7 day float period in it. So you could do the actual transfer within that window and still be legal.

The problem is, as you mention the "what if it doesn't happen?" thing. It's easier to back out with paper. Un-ringing the bell with E-FA-10? God only knows how that works.

You can't really do horse trading with E-FA-10 either, where you literally do not know what or how is getting traded for what until you get there.

Jason, you could have avoided all of this crap if you had simply been open about what you wanted to do and solicited input from gun owners (the users of this system) prior to building it.

My gut feeling is that he probably knows this but willfully, and intentionally avoided opening a dialogue with someone like GOAL before going ahead with this. This isn't a problem to him, it's a problem he created for everyone else to deal with. He's not the one that can get prosecuted. Course I would love to see him try to defend a "failure to file" case in court, that would be hilarious, particularly if the gun owner filled out the PDF form properly and it got rejected and then he somehow got charged down the road. That would be a hoot. I would bet nearly anything the state does not have the balls to charge someone with a PDF rejection. The judge would laugh at Guida, considering that, strictly speaking, the law uses the words "in writing" in it.

-Mike

 

[namedpipes]

As of last fall, what was the actual volume of mailed in FA-10 forms? Dozens a day? A hundred? Two forms?

A page feeding scanner with OCR software is a cheap, off the shelf item today. Feed the forms into the machine and you get a matching number of files having the data. It just isn't THAT hard to process those files into database records, unless the remaining staff working for Jason are imbecils.

 

[M1911]

unless the remaining staff working for Jason are imbecils.

Aren't we talking about employees of the Commonwealth?

 

[namedpipes]

Aren't we talking about employees of the Commonwealth?

I have no doubt that there are many such that are intelligent, qualified, ethical and dedicated.

I have no reason to believe that any such work for the department in question.