Great link. Follow the rules and don't fear NJ. Don't try to pump your own gas though!
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
ETA: Keep mags unloaded as this may be construed as a loaded firearm even if transported separately in the vehicle.
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Driving from MA to PA with Guns
- Thread starter glide
- Start date
Great link. Follow the rules and don't fear NJ. Don't try to pump your own gas though!
ETA: Keep mags unloaded as this may be construed as a loaded firearm even if transported separately in the vehicle.
J
Jose
He is wrong
J
Jose
Children should not speak unless spoken to by adults.
Important Note:
Keep the guns locked up separate from the ammo. When I make that trip I keep the guns locked in one case and the ammo locked in another. That may be overkill but NY is not a gun friendly state.
Also, for next time- you can get a PA CCW is 7 days from Centre County, PA.
Keep the guns locked up separate from the ammo. When I make that trip I keep the guns locked in one case and the ammo locked in another. That may be overkill but NY is not a gun friendly state.
Also, for next time- you can get a PA CCW is 7 days from Centre County, PA.
You can travel through NY, NJ and Hell (DC) if you have to as long as you are licensed for that firearm in your starting and destination states; there could be a gray area in regard to destination states that do not require permits, but for the most part if you are doing the former you are covered under FOPA. If you invalidate FOPA like stopping in Queens overnight to check on your college homey or in Trenton to pick up some holiday crackhoney you are SOL.
Like many other things in life if you follow the letter of the law you should be fine.
Like many other things in life if you follow the letter of the law you should be fine.
DickWanner
Banned
Or they could mean open carry for pistols or be legal to carry to hunt for long guns?
daltrey99
NES Member
Also if you go to most county courthouses there, you most likely will get one either on the spot or within a day or two if everything is kosher.
DickWanner
Banned
J
Jose
There is no gray area. Why do some of you make shit up?
J
Jose
Carry does not mean what you think it means. It means to take with you. Just like you carry your luggage.
You can carry your firearm around with you in your car all over Ohio without a license. You can carry it with you in a case or container without a license. Just make sure it is carried unloaded according to the definition of the Ohio Revised Code.
Again, some of you have been so browbeaten by your retarded laws you can't recognize normal any more even if you get smacked in the faced with it.
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It isn't that you need a license in both the origin and destination states, only that you are legal to possess in each.
"Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console."
18 U.S.C.A. sec. 926A (emphasis added).
daltrey99
NES Member
I agree 100%. People from MA have been "trained" to accept these stupid laws that simplicity seems so foreign.
I think that the gray area is why this thread is here. If you get stopped elsewhere outside your 'normal course of travel' or you stop outside of your 'normal course of travel' you can get nailed in Jersey, New York even MA. FOPA comes into play after the fact if the officer or authority is unaware of it during your arrest.
I should have said legal instead of licensed, bad typo.
J
Jose
I'm tracking now. Bottom line: some states don't GAF about FOPA.
Actually, there are lots of gray areas affecting FOPA, which bears all of the hallmarks of being drafted (a) in a hurry and (b) by someone with little direct practical experience in the field.
The concept behind the statute is a singular interstate voyage, with a clear starting point (in State A) and a clear ending point (in State B), with an implicit emphasis on travel by automobile. Among the gray blotches:
Need States A and B be different?
Especially given that automobile treks longer than about 400-500 miles cannot be made in one day, exactly what does it take to "interrupt" the singular voyage (so as to make it two or more "voyages," each of which, presumably, would have to qualify under FOPA)?
Since both conceptually and literally, the statute applies to all interstate voyages (not just those by auto), how does FOPA apply to travel by plane, train or dogsled? Does it include the auto (or taxi) trip from home to a first leg departure airport in another state? Does it include walking from Gate 1 to Gate 2 with your check-in luggage? Does it include the stay in a hotel, and travel to and from an airport to the hotel, where the air travel segments span a single day?
Lots of gray. And here is some more:
Given that, structurally, carrying a firearm in violation of the laws of a state through which the interstate voyage passes is a crime, does FOPA:
A) Constitute only an affirmative defense to conviction?
B) Ground a pre-trial motion to dismiss?
C) Preclude an arrest?
Subsumed within all of the foregoing is the question: who is it who decides if Poor Charlie is within or dehors the protection of FOPA in any given case? If FOPA is only an affirmative defense (as its literal wording implies, particularly in the context in which it is set), then it is perfectly OK for a police officer to arrest for the local state law violation, leaving Charlie to prove his innocence at trial, many months later, and after having been arrested, held long enough to arraignment, having to post bail, and having to swallow the financial and collateral costs of having been arrested.
Bottom line: FOPA is a great tool if you're a lawyer who gets a phone call in the middle of the night from a partner in a firm in some other state, advising that his none-too-bright kid has been arrested for unlicensed possession of his rifle team rifle while driving home at the end of the semester. It is far less well designed as a tool by which common citizens can plan and execute the sort of interstate trip that the sense (if not the words) of FOPA was intended to legitimize.
Lots and lots of gray.
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J
Jose
The good thing about FOPA is that it is unnecessary for the majority of the country.
DickWanner
Banned
Yes, you are right. Though, there are also some places in this country where you can legally possess a gun in your home, but not be able to take it outside of your home (DC and Chicago come to mind).
strangenh
NES Member
Jose's quite right about "carry" in FOPA. They didn't write it such that a NJ firearms owner would never be covered. If they can "carry" it in NJ (in a locked case under certain circumstances), and can "carry" it in their destination state, they are covered by FOPA.
The MGLs use "carry" that very same way with regard to the FID exemption for residents of other states.
The MGLs use "carry" that very same way with regard to the FID exemption for residents of other states.
J
Jose
Good point
Pardon me if I'm misinterpreting you, but if you are advocating making a false statement to a police officer, and then perhaps later testifying to the false statement under oath, I do not recommend such a course of action.
The "wrangling" is necessary because when one desires to rely on a qualified exemption from a statutory prohibition, you have to be sure you meet the qualifications. The "burden of proof" (in the sense of the burden of offering sufficient evidence to raise the issue) is on the person relying upon the exemption.
While I am from PA I lived in your "People's Socialist Democrat Republic of Mass" for 20+ years before our recent escape to the freedom of WV.
That's "West 'By Gawd" Virginia"!
I drove that trip with weapons MANY times and I84 is the best route and skips NJ unless you wander off I84 at the last exit on the NY side of the Delaware River. It will drop you in NJ.
RI and CT are ok, I was stopped in both and never had any issues.
NY is very anti gun and NY Troopers WILL ask you if you are carrying any weapons.
Have any weapon locked in a case and secured in the trunk. Do not have ammo with you if possible. It is must easier and cheaper to buy ammo in PA.
Friends who were driving thru NY on their way to a hunt in Maine we hauled in because they had cased rifles and ammo inside their passenger van. All items were locked up but were in the passenger area. While the escaped charges they spent 24+ hours in a police station in Dutchess County NY.
That's "West 'By Gawd" Virginia"!
I drove that trip with weapons MANY times and I84 is the best route and skips NJ unless you wander off I84 at the last exit on the NY side of the Delaware River. It will drop you in NJ.
RI and CT are ok, I was stopped in both and never had any issues.
NY is very anti gun and NY Troopers WILL ask you if you are carrying any weapons.
Have any weapon locked in a case and secured in the trunk. Do not have ammo with you if possible. It is must easier and cheaper to buy ammo in PA.
Friends who were driving thru NY on their way to a hunt in Maine we hauled in because they had cased rifles and ammo inside their passenger van. All items were locked up but were in the passenger area. While the escaped charges they spent 24+ hours in a police station in Dutchess County NY.
PA wrote FOPA directly into their state laws, so it's not really an issue for one who's only passing through.
You don't need a permit for a handgun when travelling on foot if it's open carried (outside of certain cities, that is). In a vehicle, you need a permit for a handgun even in the trunk. There are few exceptions to that, but in many cases people wouldn't be covered. See PA Code 61-6106. It's similar to CT laws in this regard.
Get in a decent accident at highway speeds and they won't need PC to search your possessions that are scattered across the highway.
Good idea!
It depends. PA Code 61-6106(8) isn't clear on that, I think it could go either way. The nuances of PA Code as it applies to the unlicensed aren't my bag, you may want to do some digging over at the PAFOA forums for a good answer on that, specifically how caselaw ties in.
There is a Sportmans Firearms Permit in PA.
If you're walking around outside of certain cities, then no. But just about anyone who'd find themselves in PA would be in a vehicle. There is an exemption for people with guns in the vehicle who're licensed for them in another state, but it's not as simple as say NH where unloaded in the trunk is fine for anyone who can legally possess. I also have no idea how well informed cops in PA are about the specifics of the exemptions.
Indeed I did.
![[grin]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/041.gif "Grin [grin]")
I stand by that statement.Here's the thing. Without a permit, you can't just throw the gun in the trunk, drive to McDonald's, take it out of the trunk and open carry like you could in many states. For a handgun in the car you need to meet one of the specific exemptions or have a license/reciprocity. For all practical purposes, a permit is required.
That may be what it means in Ohio. Interestingly, federal law generally only addresses the possession of firearms, and doesn't differentiate between a gun possessed by home storage or by a gun possessed while being carried in a holster. In some areas, however, it does specifically mention carry.
18 USC 926B:
Also 18 USC 930:
Now with that in mind, let's read FOPA again.
18 USC 926A:
Possess and carry. One is clearly different from the other. Now you could make a very [STRIKE]expensive[/STRIKE] interesting argument to back this up; for instance, in many states it's legal to carry a firearm in the home/business/hotel room/shooting range/etc. without any permit. Hunting guns may be carried while hunting. The law doesn't specificy where, how often or in what manner one may carry, but it does in fact require that one be allowed to carry the gun as well as possess it at both ends of the trip. I wouldn't want to be the one arguing that I'm covered by FOPA because I can carry on a Tuesday on the 2nd fortnight of March in certain areas of the woods of the state I'm travelling to or from, but who knows, it might work.
I think this is a huge part of the problem.
I think the law carefully avoids any mention of a singular voyage, or even of states. According to the commerce clause it should only apply to interstate transport, not intrastate, but given all the recent instances of the feds stating that federal gun laws apply to guns that haven't crossed state lines (such as the "Made in Montana" bill, etc.), I think it could take roads we don't expect.
ATF issued an opinion letter on FOPA, I read it online in the last 3-4 years. Basically they helped hash out some of these things, I'm going to see if I can dig it up.
In theory it could cover any type of trip. They obviously wrote it with a slant towards the Griswold's packing up the family wagon and driving to WallyWorld, assuming that the trip would be direct and continuous. I think the intent of it covers changing from car to plane to dogsled, but the reality is that the law isn't treated that way. I'm also willing to bet that there are cases where a lame duck attorney or a slow minded gun owner takes a conviction or a plea deal that could have been completely avoided because they were in fact covered by FOPA. The only cases we really hear about are the ones that make it to a higher court.
Based on what I've seen of this law and LEOSA, the answer is A. B and C are always possible, but nothing I'd bank on, because if FOPA is required in the first place, it's a bad state to be caught in with guns.
The judge, ultimately. The people who drafted the bill weren't connected to reality if they think a conviction is the only concern here.
Agreed.
For the most part, MGL and Mass. caselaw also recognize the difference between possession and carry.
Your toll receipts, the contents of your vehicle, your behavior and location are among the many things that will contribute to the believability of your story. There's plenty of caselaw, both state and federal, where people have tried to claim an exemption that they didnt fall under and got convicted for it.
