December '08 Ice Storm Lessons Learned

[matt]

Coyote33 suggested this as a topic and I think it is a good one. We learn from our mistakes... I hope.

So, without further ado, here are my lessons learned:

#1 - The sh!t can hit the fan without any real warning. We weren't expecting this. This means if you haven't planned, it is too late to plan.
#2 - A properly sized generator is key to comfort.
#3 - A properly sized fuel store for the generator is a must. Gas stations can't pump without electricity... REALLY they can't... ask me how I know...
#4 - Generators are loud, and will attract attention, especially if the power is out for a long time - get a good muffler for the generator.

Why: No specific incident, but there was a comment in another thread in the members sections about generators being carted off while running, essentially pulling the cord out of the house so as not to notify the owner until it was too late. Quiet=no one knows you have it=no one is going to steal it if they get desperate after the power is out for 2 weeks.

#5 - If your wife can't go out and ready the generator, get it started, and transfer the power now, and I mean RIGHT NOW, she's not going to be able to do it in an emergency when you are out of town/stuck away from home/etc.

Why: My wife hates that kind of stuff and doesn't like to pay attention when I try to explain it... She's happy to rely on me for that kind of stuff and generally that's fine. But, if I were on a trip to Japan (which I do periodical) she'd be screwed. I need her to learn to do this herself.

#6 - All of your modes of communication are unreliable. Have a plan.

Why: No internet/email/cell phone at our house for a couple of days and could easily have been longer. Cell phone capacity was strained when it was available. Again, if I were away from home and couldn't get there my wife would need to know what to do

#7 - Having a network of people you can call on and can call on you is good. Having their phone numbers available is better.
#8 - You don't know how long the emergency is going to last... The first morning of the storm we were screwing off, having fun (which was great) but we were not prepared and should have been taking an inventory of what we needed to do. It wasn't until later that we realized this was so bad and at that point had made a couple of decisions that really impacted our ability to respond better than we did (like using gas in the car and generator unnecessarily).
#9 - HAVE CASH ON HAND. LOTS AND SMALL BILLS. ATM's, like gas pumps don't work without electricity. Can't swipe a CC without power. CASH IS KING.

Why: I never carry cash. I really lucked out and was able to get $200 from an ATM, but that was a freak. For the first couple of days around here CC's were useless. Also because I knew better having talked about this eventuallity in a thread here recently...

#10 - Have enough food on hand. This goes hand in hand with #8. Yes, we had food on hand to last a couple of weeks... IF, and that is a big "IF" we know how long things would last AHEAD OF TIME... which of course we didn't.

Why: We generally have enough food in the house for a couple of weeks, but much of it requires cooking, and requires refrigeration to keep (see #11). I guess my point is that we had food, but not that was easy to prep, etc. until we had access to a large supply of gas for the gen set.

#11 - Assume your power is going to be out for a long time and handle your frozen/refrigerator food accordingly. If it is cold outside take advantage of that and move the food outside.

Why: We didn't have access to reliable news. The radio wasn't giving good info until the afternoon. By that point the freezer was thawing. If we'd thought about it more clearly and pro actively, we'd have handled that food differently to keep it frozen as long as possible.

#12 - Have gear on hand to dig yourself out. We were lucky we didn't have a tree across our driveway or we'd have been screwed and unable to go get fuel for the generator.

I'm sure there is more, but that's a start.

Matt

 

[theGringo]

My most immediate problem was lack of water. We were able to get some jugs of water at the local store before he sold out. But that, in the absence of a generator to keep the well pump on, was our single biggest issue.

We had an alternate heat source (woodstove). We had communication (I keep a little Princess phone handy for power loss, and if landlines are down we have a cell phone). We had enough food in the pantry for a month and never opened the fridge or freezer during the 60 hours we were out. All I lost was some milk that seemed off.

We could warm drinking and cooking water on the woodstove, hot enough to make tea and instant soup, and I actually had a small jar of instant coffee on hand..

Water from the stream 50' in front of the house provided water for toilet flushing.

We had a couple of battery powered lanterns, a few candles, flashlights and spare batteries. Had a battery powered radio.

I only had one day's supply of beer. But I had a bottle of Godiva, which I cracked Friday night.

We would have made it a week fairly comfortably if we had to, but for the water problem. A longer outage would have begun to become uncomfortable due to the limited bathing options available. You get accustomed to a hot shower every day.

 

[lord1234]

Coyote33 suggested this as a topic and I think it is a good one. We learn from our mistakes... I hope.

So, without further ado, here are my lessons learned:

#1 - The sh!t can hit the fan without any real warning. We weren't expecting this. This means if you haven't planned, it is too late to plan.
#2 - A properly sized generator is key to comfort.
#3 - A properly sized fuel store for the generator is a must. Gas stations can't pump without electricity... REALLY they can't... ask me how I know...
#4 - Generators are loud, and will attract attention, especially if the power is out for a long time - get a good muffler for the generator.
#5 - If your wife can't go out and ready the generator, get it started, and transfer the power now, and I mean RIGHT NOW, she's not going to be able to do it in an emergency when you are out of town/stuck away from home/etc.
#6 - All of your modes of communication are unreliable. Have a plan.
#7 - Having a network of people you can call on and can call on you is good. Having their phone numbers available is better.
#8 - You don't know how long the emergency is going to last... The first morning of the storm we were screwing off, having fun (which was great) but we were not prepared and should have been taking an inventory of what we needed to do. It wasn't until later that we realized this was so bad and at that point had made a couple of decisions that really impacted our ability to respond better than we did (like using gas in the car and generator unnecessarily).
#9 - HAVE CASH ON HAND. LOTS AND SMALL BILLS. ATM's, like gas pumps don't work without electricity. Can't swipe a CC without power. CASH IS KING.
#10 - Have enough food on hand. This goes hand in hand with #8. Yes, we had food on hand to last a couple of weeks... IF, and that is a big "IF" we know how long things would last AHEAD OF TIME... which of course we didn't.
#11 - Assume your power is going to be out for a long time and handle your frozen/refrigerator food accordingly. If it is cold outside take advantage of that and move the food outside.
#12 - Have gear on hand to dig yourself out. We were lucky we didn't have a tree across our driveway or we'd have been screwed and unable to go get fuel for the generator.

I'm sure there is more, but that's a start.

Matt

Matt,
I would love to hear your reasoning for all of these assertions. Especially 4,5,6,9-11. specifically what personal experiences caused these opinions.

 

[strangenh]

Matt,
I would love to hear your reasoning for all of these assertions. Especially 4,5,6,9-11. specifically what personal experiences caused these opinions.

I'll throw in on #11 because it's the one thing on Matt's list we definitely did wrong, and realized it this morning.

"#11 - Assume your power is going to be out for a long time and handle your frozen/refrigerator food accordingly. If it is cold outside take advantage of that and move the food outside."

Once it was clear the power was going to be out more than a couple hours, we gathered up ice from outside into containers, set some water bottles and icepacks to freeze on the porch, and packed the fridge and freezer with them. Had we assumed a 60+ hour outage, we would have simply emptied the freezer into some coolers and put them on the screen porch and used all the ice to keep the fridge cool.

We lost some meat in the freezer that partway thawed sometime overnight, then refroze when we repacked the freezer icepacks the next morning. Some bread we had frozen got freezer burn from partial thawing and refreezing, too. We didn't lose much in the fridge - it peaked at 46F, which is generally OK for most things for a modest period.

Prioritize your eating accordingly. We ate the last of eggs by breakfast on day 2, and used up the milk in coffee the first 2 days on purpose, since we weren't sure how they would fare as the fridge temp fluctuated.

 

[Admin]

Prioritize your eating accordingly. We ate the last of eggs by breakfast on day 2, and used up the milk in coffee the first 2 days on purpose, since we weren't sure how they would fare as the fridge temp fluctuated.

+1 important tip.

 

[dwarven1]

#11 - Assume your power is going to be out for a long time and handle your frozen/refrigerator food accordingly. If it is cold outside take advantage of that and move the food outside.

And make sure you have coolers or totes on hand to put the food IN so you're not feeding the coyotes...

Also, 1 gallon water bottles, frozen outside and then placed in the fridge/freezer, will nicely extend the amount of time that your fridge/freezer stays cold.

My most immediate problem was lack of water. We were able to get some jugs of water at the local store before he sold out.

We get water delivered because we don't like the taste of Marlborough water. So we always try to keep at least three full 5-gallon carboys of water on hand - when we crack the fourth to last bottle, that's when we order more water.

Reason I mention this is that you could get some empties of those 5-gal carboys and keep them on hand for emergency water storage. BJ's sells Polar in the 5 gal sizes; deposit on the bottles is $5 each.

 

[lord1234]

And make sure you have coolers or totes on hand to put the food IN so you're not feeding the coyotes...

Also, 1 gallon water bottles, frozen outside and then placed in the fridge/freezer, will nicely extend the amount of time that your fridge/freezer stays cold.

We get water delivered because we don't like the taste of Marlborough water. So we always try to keep at least three full 5-gallon carboys of water on hand - when we crack the fourth to last bottle, that's when we order more water.

Reason I mention this is that you could get some empties of those 5-gal carboys and keep them on hand for emergency water storage. BJ's sells Polar in the 5 gal sizes; deposit on the bottles is $5 each.

Just a warning about buying the plastic "empties". They can get scratches on the inside overtime, and these scratches allow bacteria to set up house. This is also the reason why homebrewers do NOT use the plastic carboys, and tend to shy away from the plastic buckets after any significant period of time.

 

[matt]

Matt,
I would love to hear your reasoning for all of these assertions. Especially 4,5,6,9-11. specifically what personal experiences caused these opinions.

See replies in origonal post above.

I'll throw in on #11 because it's the one thing on Matt's list we definitely did wrong, and realized it this morning.

"#11 - Assume your power is going to be out for a long time and handle your frozen/refrigerator food accordingly. If it is cold outside take advantage of that and move the food outside."

Once it was clear the power was going to be out more than a couple hours, we gathered up ice from outside into containers, set some water bottles and icepacks to freeze on the porch, and packed the fridge and freezer with them. Had we assumed a 60+ hour outage, we would have simply emptied the freezer into some coolers and put them on the screen porch and used all the ice to keep the fridge cool.

We lost some meat in the freezer that partway thawed sometime overnight, then refroze when we repacked the freezer icepacks the next morning. Some bread we had frozen got freezer burn from partial thawing and refreezing, too. We didn't lose much in the fridge - it peaked at 46F, which is generally OK for most things for a modest period.

Prioritize your eating accordingly. We ate the last of eggs by breakfast on day 2, and used up the milk in coffee the first 2 days on purpose, since we weren't sure how they would fare as the fridge temp fluctuated.

You hit my #11 just about perfectly... that's why #11!

How about the rest of you? What did you learn? I can't be the only knuckle head in the room... am I? [LOL]

 

[Admin]

I should have already had a generator and inside heater. Literally all of my money has been going to buying AR's and AR parts. I need to store more water than I currenty do.

 

[tele_mark]

I also learned to have cash on hand. I wigged when the "original" bailout was announced and took a chunk of savings out and put it in my safe. Not much -- a few $100, but I'm right behind a bank and it was truly amazing watching the steady stream of cars going to the ATM over the last few days in total darkness.

The money came in handy when I had o drive all the way to Marlboro to buy gas because I had failed cache enough gas for the generator. I was up for 12 hours strait, from the time the power went out, going out to the shed in the pouring rain with limbs coming down, to start up the generator long enough to drain the sump, which was filling in 45 minutes, then shutting down the generator again to conserve the small amount of fuel I had. . After a few failed recons I let it run and made a dash all the way to Marlboro.

Which bring me to the next lesson -- I am going to finally buy a backup sump pump with a deep cycle battery. And, I may put in a transfer switch and buy a 230V generator so I can go whole house and make things simpler.

 

[theGringo]

See replies in origonal post above.



You hit my #11 just about perfectly... that's why #11!

How about the rest of you? What did you learn? I can't be the only knuckle head in the room... am I? [LOL]

I learned that my refrigerator and upright freezer exceed performance specifications. In the kitchen fridge, after 60 hours, I still had cool beer and ice cubes (no melting whatsoever). In the cellar freezer, everything was still frozen solid.

I threw out some milk and egg nog.

 

[matt]

I'll add one more:

#13 - Planning to do something is as good as NOT doing it. I'm beginning to grab onto the AlphaRubicon.com motto:

Facta Non Verba
Deeds, not Words​

I had plans to address a bunch of these issues ahead of time...

 

[doobie]

My freezer intention failed yesterday. I wanted to use my UPS with a BAB (big ass battery), but for whatever reason it wouldn't work. The freezer said it was 5amp max, the UPS said it was 10 amp. It still died the first time the compressor kicked in. Anyone have an idea? In theory they say I could last for 24-48 hours with the freezer, but I have way too much $$ of food in it to risk it, which kept my generator going more often than I wanted. And of course that meant going through fuel faster. I think I'm on gallon 26-30 in the generator now. Should last me til morning, then 30-34 while at work.

Beyond realizing 18 gallons + 4 gallons ain't enough... I'm ordering a propane conversion kit and a big ass propane tank for my generator as soon as I get a chance.

 

[matt]

Doobie, I'm guessing the starting current on the refrigerator is too high. If the UPS is made for a computer the shut off curve for the breaker may be too aggressive for starting a motor. Starting currents for motors can be like 3x steady state.

Beyond realizing 18 gallons + 4 gallons ain't enough... I'm ordering a propane conversion kit and a big ass propane tank for my generator as soon as I get a chance.

I'm considering this also. There is a generator thread here. I posted about some conversion units. They make duel fuel converters so you can rung gas or propane. That sounds ideal. A big tank to get you through most anything, then backup with gas.

 

[jar]

I only had one day's supply of beer.

I've got this one covered at least. I've got about 20 gallons on hand.

I was lucky enough to never lose power, but watching what everyone else went through is making me evaluate my plans (or rather lack thereof). I'm looking at getting a portable generator once finances allow and the rush dies down. I'm also considering getting my chimney inspected/cleaned so I can get a supply of wood and use my fireplaces. This may wait until summer because I have a feeling firewood will be in short supply at this point.

I've already been working on building up the canned goods supply a bit, and I'm planning to continue that. I generally keep some gallon jugs of water on hand, and I'm going to expand that.

Those that store gasoline, how is the safest way to do it? I have a plastic gas can for the lawnmower, but stacks of them on a larger scale seems like a bad idea.

 

[doobie]

Doobie, I'm guessing the starting current on the refrigerator is too high. If the UPS is made for a computer the shut off curve for the breaker may be too aggressive for starting a motor. Starting currents for motors can be like 3x steady state.

It even had problems powering while on AC. I thought since the label said peak current 5a, and the UPS said 10amp... I figured I'd be ok. OH well. I'm going to try an inverter instead and see how it goes. I'll charge the battery when I have power then run on the inverter for a while.

My fridge I'm not so worried about, I don't keep much in there, the freezer on the other hand has lots of food.

 

[01SVTvert]

My Wife works for a propane company and her coworker, a longtime propane tech LOVES propane generators. Long run time, combined with usually easy starts.
Honestly I think I have my father convinced to get a whole house propane for him as his smaller unit only does half the house, the heat and well, he is out on a dead end in a small town and national grid sucks at servicing their road. I assume he will be without power for a week and having to fuel it every few hours and get gas during this sobered him that his backup may not be good enough.

I was not home when the power went out. I was at a place of employ that HAS TO have power and we had problems. I was lucky that I got home at a decent time after the company crisis. I can not leave work, and would not, barring my family being in harms way in a very serious way. Wife is pretty good about independence.

Lessons learned:

Wife thinking I was nuts for having multiple lanterns with backup batteries for all payed off. Plenty of light and batteries would have lasted days.

A propane ornamental fireplace can heat a whole house even with the blower down. Ventless logs with mantle was less than $400 on clearance at Lowes and had last winter heated our downstairs rather than the oil burner so I was happy we had this.

Small LED single LED "candle" disposable lights from Target were greeat. Supposedly over 24 hours each, small, portable and enough light to see by at night.

Water: town, filled several gallons in case there was a problem with the town water. Honestly, it was not enough and I was concerned about the municipal supply haveing a bacteria problem during the outage as well as supply even though I know they have backup. I also know a small amount of bleach kills pretty much everything in water if need be.

At night, the water went out to the porch to freeze for backup use in the freezer to keep the food decent. Rule number one in the house was "dont open freezer no matter what"

We need more "no heating" instant foods in our house. Selection was poor and although there was a some, having a decent selection would help. Propane fireplace could have been used to heat the food in a pinch. (logs removed and burner dial turned up with a pan)

Make sure everyone in the house knows where the flashlights are, as well as any other necessary items.

Make sure you have a HAND can opener. We had an electric the wife knew about but untill I got home and rummaged, she had no hand opener. Tuna is a lot tougher to eat in an unopened can.

Plan of action: Water storage should be looked into, such as the bladder sold here on the group buy. First Aid kit: larger one needed just in case. Cash on hand: never deplete your supply and "wait a couple days" to replenish it, THATS when the storm hits.

More to come as I think of it.

 

[m4bushy]

I couldn't believe the people around here that didn't even have a working flashlight. There was people fighting over flashlights and batteries at the local Walmart.

We lost power for 48-50 hrs. We faired quite well with our small generator. it was enough to keep the pellet stove, fridge, aquarium, tv and a light or two powered. The lack of hot water was a little annoying but some family members ha power so we went there to shower.

 

[tele_mark]

One thing, now that I think of it -- I was complacent on water because my supply wasn't interrupted. I have 10 gallons stored downstairs, but when this thing started I probably should've filled the tub. I could've drained it for the morning shower then re-filled it again.

 

[dwarven1]

I have a feeling firewood will be in short supply at this point.

Uh... you HAVE looked around, right? LOTS of wood available. Sure, it's mostly green, but you can get away with burning it - just make sure to have your chimneys cleaned more often. Besides... now is the BEST time to get it and stockpile it - just let it dry and it'll be GTG for next year.

A propane ornamental fireplace can heat a whole house even with the blower down. Ventless logs with mantle was less than $400 on clearance at Lowes and had last winter heated our downstairs rather than the oil burner so I was happy we had this.

So... other than running a propane line, no installation was required for this? Just put it up against the wall? No chimney or anything needed?

We need more "no heating" instant foods in our house. Selection was poor and although there was a some, having a decent selection would help.

What kinds of food are we talking about here? Canned chicken/tuna, that sort of stuff? What else?

I couldn't believe the people around here that didn't even have a working flashlight. There was people fighting over flashlights and batteries at the local Walmart.

Heh. Maglights in the kitchen and each bathroom, batteries changed every New Years Day. No problems here over that.

 

[drgrant]

My freezer intention failed yesterday. I wanted to use my UPS with a BAB (big ass battery), but for whatever reason it wouldn't work. The freezer said it was 5amp max, the UPS said it was 10 amp. It still died the first time the compressor kicked in. Anyone have an idea?

UPSes are not really designed to see huge inductive loads. Even a rack of hard disks is not the same kind of "hard" inductive load as whats presented by
a refrigeration compressor.

-Mike

 

[kevin9]

Coyote33 suggested this as a topic and I think it is a good one. We learn from our mistakes... I hope.

So, without further ado, here are my lessons learned:

#1 - The sh!t can hit the fan without any real warning. We weren't expecting this. This means if you haven't planned, it is too late to plan.

We (well actually it was my DW and the children as I was off working Thursday) did make preparations. They stocked-piled water, collected and checked all the flashlights, and brought in wood for the wood-fired cook-stove.

#2 - A properly sized generator is key to comfort.

Our's is 5.5-6KW. That's sufficient to survive. However, I only had two of six circuits hooked up to the transfer switch. We had heat and water, but running the freezers required extension cords. I now know the hard way which additional circuits really need to be hooked up.

#3 - A properly sized fuel store for the generator is a must. Gas stations can't pump without electricity... REALLY they can't... ask me how I know...

My big boo-boo this time. I only had 4 gal of marginal gas on hand. First thing is to get enough cans and stock about 20 gal of gas. We'll rotate usage during the summer.

#4 - Generators are loud, and will attract attention, especially if the power is out for a long time - get a good muffler for the generator.

Siting is important. I'm also going to be looking for a small car muffler to rig up for our generator.

#5 - If your wife can't go out and ready the generator, get it started, and transfer the power now, and I mean RIGHT NOW, she's not going to be able to do it in an emergency when you are out of town/stuck away from home/etc.

#1 son can do this. Wife can in a pinch.

#6 - All of your modes of communication are unreliable. Have a plan.

Copper phone was up. I had signal on my cell too (Verizon). Wife and son did not on theirs (AT&T). Cable/internet was/still is down.

#7 - Having a network of people you can call on and can call on you is good. Having their phone numbers available is better.

Yes!

#8 - You don't know how long the emergency is going to last... The first morning of the storm we were screwing off, having fun (which was great) but we were not prepared and should have been taking an inventory of what we needed to do. It wasn't until later that we realized this was so bad and at that point had made a couple of decisions that really impacted our ability to respond better than we did (like using gas in the car and generator unnecessarily).

Yep. We should have been working on having the generator on sooner.

#9 - HAVE CASH ON HAND. LOTS AND SMALL BILLS. ATM's, like gas pumps don't work without electricity. Can't swipe a CC without power. CASH IS KING.

Good idea, although it was not a problem for us.

#10 - Have enough food on hand. This goes hand in hand with #8. Yes, we had food on hand to last a couple of weeks... IF, and that is a big "IF" we know how long things would last AHEAD OF TIME... which of course we didn't.

We normally have plenty of food on hand (weeks worth), if it can be kept cool/cold.

#11 - Assume your power is going to be out for a long time and handle your frozen/refrigerator food accordingly. If it is cold outside take advantage of that and move the food outside.

Yes! We didn't lose much food in the refrigerator and freezers, due to the frigid weather Friday night and Saturday (was able to put cold and frozen stuff outside), but I should have had the generator on sooner before the freezers started warming up. We did cover the top of the freezers with blankets which helped a bit.

#12 - Have gear on hand to dig yourself out. We were lucky we didn't have a tree across our driveway or we'd have been screwed and unable to go get fuel for the generator.

Would have been a bit of a problem for us too. I do have a chainsaw, but it's electric. I never though to get a gas-powered saw. We also have a hand-saw which could work, but would be tedious. I will be getting a gas saw, if just to clean up. There's too many branches and trees down too far from the house.

I'm sure there is more, but that's a start.

Matt

Cooking with the wood stove was OK, but I need to finish getting the propane cook stove set up (need tank and hose & a stand would be nice). This would allow more variety in food preparation (almost 3 days of just soup, stew and sandwiches gets monotonous).

Chest freezers hold cold much better than uprights. Got to replace the upright.

 

[MrsWildweasel]

We lucked out this time, but I had learned the hard way when the weather was good and we had no power, phones etc for 4 days.
Generators we have. I also have oil lamps for every room in the house plus some wall ones.
Heat we have that covered. Pellet stove and small generator to power that when we lose power. It's also on a UPS.
Large generator to power the well, and keep the fridge and freezers going, but I also have water bottles frozen in the freezers to help with keeping things cold.
This time of year my porch also acts as a refrigerator, and keep things actually colder than the fridge. Also we have plenty of coolers that we can put things in.
If I needed to I also have the motorhome for additional cooking, etc.
Food I probably have close to 6 months or more worth of food along with additional supplies.
Water if for some reason we can't get the generator going for the well, the brook that is on the other side of my mother in laws used to be the water supply for the town before everyone had to get wells.
We realized a long time ago that you can't depend on the gov't or anyone else to help you out.
When we had that outage, it was neighbor helping neighbor, and it was also us going out to the elderly in town and making sure they had water and were okay. With no phones there was no way anyone could get a hold of emergency services if it was needed.
It's all a learning experience, and each time we lost power I would perfect and make notes on what I needed for the next time. This way we are prepared for pretty much anything, use this as a learning tool and prioritize what you need to get /or do for the next time.
Hopefully there isn't one, but you can never be too sure. This way you won't be wondering either.

 

[terraformer]

UPSes are not really designed to see huge inductive loads. Even a rack of hard disks is not the same kind of "hard" inductive load as whats presented by
a refrigeration compressor.

-Mike

Yeah, even thinking you can use a battery for this kind of load is serious wishful thinking. You may be able to get away with it if it is a *really* big battery.

For those looking into it, I was pricing out simple home generators and switch over devices. You are looking @ $2K for a 100 amp manual transfer switch and 5500 watt gas generator including an assumed $600 for installation of the transfer switch. For 200 amp service (and this is not of the generator, but of the service to the home so if you have 200 amp service, this is the price regardless of generator size) for a 5500 watt generator and a 200 amp transfer switch, you are looking at $3500 for the whole setup. Obviously these are rough numbers. Keep in mind there is no reason for keeping the generator outdoors if you pipe the gas to the outside. There is the muffler thing but you can pipe it after the muffler. Keep in mind the technical rules (as opposed to code) for piping cobustion engine exhaust gas are not as strict about run length, angles, etc (the gas is under pressure and is not relying on draft) but one would be best to keep the run as short as possible and keep all pipes elevated up and out. I have no idea if it is code to have a generator indoors (in a basement for ex, but frankly I would not want to have a generator outdoors during a SHTF event where it can be stolen because even with a muffler it will attract attention. I have to imagine a few were stolen even this past week.

 

[P-14]

Search the Survival Form for more gaps in your planning! For example, this was already out there:

Cash is king
http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=27802&highlight=ice+storm

 

[Palladin]

Yeah, even thinking you can use a battery for this kind of load is serious wishful thinking. You may be able to get away with it if it is a *really* big battery.

For those looking into it, I was pricing out simple home generators and switch over devices. You are looking @ $2K for a 100 amp manual transfer switch and 5500 watt gas generator including an assumed $600 for installation of the transfer switch. For 200 amp service (and this is not of the generator, but of the service to the home so if you have 200 amp service, this is the price regardless of generator size) for a 5500 watt generator and a 200 amp transfer switch, you are looking at $3500 for the whole setup. Obviously these are rough numbers. Keep in mind there is no reason for keeping the generator outdoors if you pipe the gas to the outside. There is the muffler thing but you can pipe it after the muffler. Keep in mind the technical rules (as opposed to code) for piping cobustion engine exhaust gas are not as strict about run length, angles, etc (the gas is under pressure and is not relying on draft) but one would be best to keep the run as short as possible and keep all pipes elevated up and out. I have no idea if it is code to have a generator indoors (in a basement for ex, but frankly I would not want to have a generator outdoors during a SHTF event where it can be stolen because even with a muffler it will attract attention. I have to imagine a few were stolen even this past week.

I love my genset. Power's been out since Thursday 11PM.
it's Nat Gas 10KW, now running my house and the houses on either side of me.

just received calls to put two in for clients. a 10kw, Eaton, Cutler Hammer controls with 18hp B&S engine, is $3250...100A ATS another $400....$1000 for gas installation, $1000 for the electrical.

View attachment 2304

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pics of the electrical installation & genset.

And you HAVE to put it outdoors..aside from the exhaust factor, the noise would drive you out of the house!

 

[strangenh]

Yeah, even thinking you can use a battery for this kind of load is serious wishful thinking. You may be able to get away with it if it is a *really* big battery.

That's really an important point. Even if the inverter is rated for (say) 2000W at 115VAC with a burst number at 3000W, one lone battery may not be able to deliver the total current needed to get there. It's easy to confuse total power available with the ability to deliver it at a certain current.

Telcos used to use banks of 2V batteries at 24V or 48V per bank, total, to drive motors (not sure what they do today, but given we lost phone 12 hours after AC, I'm guessing they just have some commercial Liebert UPSes or the like... and no generator - *spit*). Anyhow, I wouldn't try to run a big fridge off less than a pair of 6V, high-load-rated batts (ones rated for solar applications are generally great) to a 12V inverter; probably it would be even better with 24V total and an inverter set up for 24VDC-in. Or 48V. Whatever you can hack.

You can get a really nice inverter with built-in charge controller, a bunch of batteries, some plywood, and build yourself a pretty amazing backup battery setup rated for 2500W(continuous)/5000W(surge) for your fridge and some small appliances for under $1500. I'd ONLY use sealed batteries for it or you'll need to put in a hydrogen vent to the outside (or leave it outside all the time...). Top it off from the mains monthly and don't draw it down under 50% of its total rated power, and the batteries should last you about 5 years. Charge it up from the generator in bursts when SHTF. A generator's going to be most efficient when it is running full-steam anyhow. Heck, put a battery monitor on it, get a generator with remote switch (there are plenty of electric start portables with one), and you can have it turn on the generator for you when it needs topping off.

 

[terraformer]

I love my genset. Power's been out since Thursday 11PM.
it's Nat Gas 10KW, now running my house and the houses on either side of me.

just received calls to put two in for clients. a 10kw, Eaton, Cutler Hammer controls with 18hp B&S engine, is $3250...100A ATS another $400....$1000 for gas installation, $1000 for the electrical.

pics of the electrical installation & genset.

And you HAVE to put it outdoors..aside from the exhaust factor, the noise would drive you out of the house!

I was talking a petrol fuel generator so no natural gas costs. Clearly natural gas is convenient but still reliant on an utility infrastructure. Interesting that the switch is cheaper but the labor is higher than I assumed. Only off about $200 from what I had originally stated. Any multi-fuel units out there that can reliably run on gas or fuel that you know of?

So, the noise, even with a muffler, is that bad? You are able to run three houses from 10KW? Are you all cutting back on non-essential energy use? I didn't want to rely on numbers on what 5KW gets you since I don't know what pf to use for the generators and typical home loads. I assume .8 or something similar. If so, 5.5KW gets you about 38 amps or so @ 120v. That about right?

 

[Palladin]

I was talking a petrol fuel generator so no natural gas costs. Clearly natural gas is convenient but still reliant on an utility infrastructure. Interesting that the switch is cheaper but the labor is higher than I assumed. Only off about $200 from what I had originally stated. Any multi-fuel units out there that can reliably run on gas or fuel that you know of?

So, the noise, even with a muffler, is that bad? You are able to run three houses from 10KW? Are you all cutting back on non-essential energy use? I didn't want to rely on numbers on what 5KW gets you since I don't know what pf to use for the generators and typical home loads. I assume .8 or something similar. If so, 5.5KW gets you about 38 amps or so @ 120v. That about right?

mine is a combo NG / LP ...I have a builtin muffler & a sound shield, you could never run it in the house, the vibrations & noise would drive you out....18HP engine.

re: the houses next door, they have gas warm air furnace, gas powershot water heater, fridge & a couple of lights each.
4-12Amps each....ran a 12/2 rx to each one.
the PF is actually higher....I get 40amps out of my 10KW

 

[01SVTvert]

Dwarven,

Ventless fireplace requires no venting to outside. Run a propane line to the site and hook it up. This buy code requires a permit for the tank and hardlines being installed. I placed my mantle, cut the baseboard by hand behind it and anchored it myself, the fireplacce assembly is simple. You can see them at Lowes, they sell the mantle separately and then some come with the firebox and logs/burner as one unit. Mine is like that. Some of the larger units require you to buy the mantle (although you could build yourself or recess into a wall and build a box on the outisde of the house) as well as a firebox and a set of logs / burner for a total of 3 piece. These are the larget ones that have like 50k btus plus.

They have a separate fan kit that has a thermostatically controlled blower that runs once the fire is hot and then runs till the flames is off and continues till the firebox is cool. Very efficient but they do create extra moisture (products of propane combustion are CO2 and water) so you cant get damper than usual air and therefore condensation on your windows during the winter. With the power out the blower didnt work but it still worked amazingly well at distributing the heat, we do have a pertty open floor plan in our house.


The food issue was more of a variety, having some canned chicken as well as tuna, maybe some other kinds of easy to eat stuff like fluff and peanut butter. Was not really a problem but with the mandate of "ye shall NOT open the fridge" my wife was bored trying to make a varied meal. Not really a survival concern.