Customer of Worcester gas station viciously beaten in random attack

[Hustler One]

Since this instance is in close geographic proximity to many of us, I think it’s worth a more detailed discussion.

I’m not an attorney, but to add to the discussion, the relative appearance of a disparity in age and height is generally not a reasonable justification for use of force because proportionality still exists — both men appeared to be mid-20 to mid-30 age males in average physical condition (no physical mobility aids, etc) — if it was a 20-something gym rat versus an elderly person, it may be reasonable to assume a disparity, but without having any prior knowledge of a mental health issue of the assailant it may be perceived by any jury as two “average” guys in an altercation. While the news story reports there was no prior exchange, who know what the assailant may allege after the fact.

Of course, once the assailant began to stomp on the victim’s head, one could assume fear of grave bodily harm to the victim. At what point does bystander intervention become reasonable? Are you going to fear jail time up to life in prison for a stranger? Would you intervene as a bystander in the act of battery and risk the assailant direct the violence at you? I mean these as rhetorical questions —

Merely drawing your CCW and issuing a verbal command is brandishing and the assailant can allege they felt threatened, leading to an assault charge, arrest, loosing 2A rights and thousands of dollars in legal fees.

Is aiding a bystander morally “worth it”? If you were the individual being assaulted would escalating the encounter by drawing your firearm be the justified response? Now you’ve introduced the gun into the fight. Even many people who train marksmanship regularly do not regularly train weapons retention techniques.

I think it’s all reasonable to ask and consider the “what if it were me...” scenarios. I’m just not sure I have all the answers. Just my $0.02...

I’d be interested to hear @Len-2A Training opinion, as I think this provides a good learning opportunity.

Youre over thinking it. I dont know how it works in MA but in CT to defend yourself or another with deadly force - ability, opportunity and jeopardy need to be present and in this case all of them were present.

Suspect was clearly physically able to cause harm, had the opportunity via surprise and the victim was in jeopardy of losing his life by a head stomp. So the question is, is would i have already walked out of the store and went on with my day. Probably. If i was to monday morning quarterback an unarmed conflict, id hope that at the very least a bystander who was still there would shove the dude off the victim after the curb stomp and say enough. What the suspect does to the intervener after that well...

 

[not new guy]

Anyone who stomps on someone’s head while they’re incapacitated on the ground deserves to be charged with attempted murder. Change my mind.

 

[In God We Trust]

if someone attacks me in the wild, I’m drawing my gun and ventilating them if they continue. A 150 pound dude can knock out john Cena with one good punch. Once you are down, chances are about 50-50 as to getting some head stomps. Assuming your head smacking the ground didn’t kill you already that is. I’m too old to be fist fighting in the street

 

[AHM]

Old and Busted:
Looking for the AED when entering a public building,
in case someone vapor locks and you need to assist with a defibrillator.

The New Hotness:
Looking for the pepper spray sales carousel when entering a convenience store,
in case some mental patient is administering a beatdown on an innocent victim,
and the assailant needs some healing vapors.
(Grabbing some of the store's pepper spray is worlds better than using your own).

 

[Mtn_Guy]

Again, not an attorney, but my understanding from the training I’ve received is the five elements that need to be satisfied for justified self defense is:

innocence
imminence
proportionality
avoidance
reasonableness

not “overthinking” — just taking the opportunity to explore the “what if’s...” since it provides a recent, local encounter example.

The victim presumably had innocence (assuming there was no history or prior altercation that provoked the encounter)

The victim had imminence in the fact that he was already “behind the curve” in the attack.

I think proportionality can be debated based upon the size, stature and age of the assailant and victim — my opinion is that a significant disparity of force did not exist in this instance.

The victim had avoidance in the fact he did appear to attempt to retreat, and the assailant continued the attack.

I also think reasonableness can be debated if the victim chose to escalate to lethal force for a non-lethal force encounter. Again, I agree, once the assailant began to stomp the victim on the head there was a threat of grave bodily harm; however, up to that point I think less-lethal means of self-defense would have been appropriate, and a use of lethal force (up to that point) would not have been justified.

Just my opinion...

 

[safetyfirst2125]

if someone attacks me in the wild, I’m drawing my gun and ventilating them if they continue. A 150 pound dude can knock out john Cena with one good punch. Once you are down, chances are about 50-50 as to getting some head stomps. Assuming your head smacking the ground didn’t kill you already that is. I’m too old to be fist fighting in the street

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6

 

[a73elkyss]

I'm to old to take that kind of beating, especially with past medical history. I understand "situational awareness" and all, but I can see me in line just like the victim and "aware", but a blind side sucker punch would totally disorient me real quick.

Jay

 

[mousegunfan]

what!!!! white on white crime??? nooooooo, say it ain't so...

Antifa

 

[CRSIII]

I'm to old to take that kind of beating, especially with past medical history. I understand "situational awareness" and all, but I can see me in line just like the victim and "aware", but a blind side sucker punch would totally disorient me real quick.

Jay

Disparity of force on your side. Act accordingly.

 

[Kevin_NH]

I also think reasonableness can be debated if the victim chose to escalate to lethal force for a non-lethal force encounter. Again, I agree, once the assailant began to stomp the victim on the head there was a threat of grave bodily harm; however, up to that point I think less-lethal means of self-defense would have been appropriate, and a use of lethal force (up to that point) would not have been justified.

I don't know MA law, but is the threshold for "threat of grave bodily harm" really set that high in Massachusetts? One would expect the flurry of punches to the head seen at the start of the encounter to qualify.

I wouldn't expect the victim to have to wait for the head stomping to commence before lethal force is lawful.

 

[Coyote33]

Old and Busted:
Looking for the AED when entering a public building,
in case someone vapor locks and you need to assist with a defibrillator.

The New Hotness:
Looking for the pepper spray sales carousel when entering a convenience store,
in case some mental patient is administering a beatdown on an innocent victim,
and the assailant needs some healing vapors.
(Grabbing some of the store's pepper spray is worlds better than using your own).

2 words:
Hornet Spray

 

[Reptile]

It's slang for state mental hospitals / institutions (i.e. long term residences and treatment centers for the mentally too-f***ed-up-for-society). The MA ones got shut down about 40 years ago due to politics, mostly because they treated patients horribly in many cases... Rather than improve the quality of care, and set some new standards, the state shuttered them all and dumped the abby normals onto your streets to wreak havoc.

If you can get them funded and re-opened, I'll happily open a strip club called "The Booby Hatch" in your honor, exclusively featuring girls with "crazy eyes". You haven't lived until you've seen a nubile lass make her way around the brass pole in nothing but a straight jacket. It takes a lot of leg strength, but it's a sight to see. You think you're "horny"? If this girl doesn't take her risperdal, she thinks she's a mountain goat. Bon apetit.

Good Lord, that sounds like the start of a Penthouse Forum story.

Now, regarding the legal fees for saving a stranger...

Is she worth saving after the $10,000 legal bill and loss of your guns.

Only you can decide.

Reconsider after she goes back to her baby daddy in the end.

 

[a73elkyss]

Disparity of force on your side. Act accordingly.

I do understand what you are saying. I'm not making any excuses. I played that video back at .25 speed, the slowest possible, and the attacker landed what looked like at least 10 full weight punches to the victims head and upper torso before the victim was able to put up any defense. We all know how fast it happens in real life. This is all before the head stomp. The head stomp changes everything. Anyone else notice the attacker picked up a wallet or phone on his exit? Then comes back to take the victim with him. We all know what that is about.

The attacker is clearly younger, bigger, and faster than I am, with the the element of many surprise sucker punches landing before the head stomp, I stand by my initial statement of being at least temporally disoriented.

All this being said, I've played this situation out many times and ways, and still can't come up what I would "actually" do. No, I'm not going "sheepishly" into the night, and in the few actual fights (defensive only) I've been in (at a much younger and healthier age), I've been able to at the very least get back into it. Side note: I've only carried later in life. I've never been in an actual fight while carrying.

Lots of variables.

Jay

 

[IPSC_DRL]

Anyone who stomps on someone’s head while they’re incapacitated on the ground deserves to be charged with attempted murder. Change my mind.

 

[not new guy]

Not quite a compelling argument.