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couple of interesting SHTF e-books

Anti static bag wouldn't help; metal ammo canister might. A faraday cage would definitely help.

Figured the bag would insulate a little from the metal container.

So, does one put the chicken wire under or over the Tyvek housewrap? (^_^)

So, basically, you need something that can intercept the charge like the protective cage in the Van DeGraffe generator at the Museum of Science and then direct that charge to earth ground.

From a quick Google search, it sounds like even the experts are not 100% sure what the effects are. Something about needing a large EMP to be able to test the effects of a large EMP. (^_^)
 
My only issue is there is no way that I know of to test them. I want to EMP shield a shed and/or a garage.
Sure there is. Take a boombox tuned to a strong radio station. Open the faraday cage and walk in and close the door. If it's good, your radio will die like it was shot. Did that at my dad's company with my brandy-new AM Transistor radio back in the 60's - soon as I walked in to this huge mesh room, *poof*. No signal. Thanks for reminding me of that; that's a good memory I have of being with my dad at work. [grin]
That's pretty much what they told us in class Ross. That unless the equipment was made to handle a huge surge it will get fried.
Basically, tubes are such overkill in how their engineered compared to tiny leetle transistors and integrated circuits that the only things running will be stuff with tubes or stuff with NO tubes or transistors at all. Non-electronic ignition systems, for example - older motorcycles, WWII Jeeps, etc.
The only thing I did not care about in Lights Out is we never really learn who did what to cause the EMP.

Also what kind of "thing" could cause an EMP to wipe out the entire country?

Spoiler alert!!!!!

































Sure we did - some Arab billionaire. It was in the story. He purchased some old Russki nukes and detonated them in very high airbursts across the country to generate the EMP. Thinly disguised bin Laden, basically.
 
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Sure we did - some Arab billionaire. It was in the story. He purchased some old Russki nukes and detonated them in very high airbursts across the country to generate the EMP. Thinly disguised bin Laden, basically.

A spoiler alert would have been nice.
 
Figured the bag would insulate a little from the metal container.

So, does one put the chicken wire under or over the Tyvek housewrap? (^_^)

So, basically, you need something that can intercept the charge like the protective cage in the Van DeGraffe generator at the Museum of Science and then direct that charge to earth ground.

From a quick Google search, it sounds like even the experts are not 100% sure what the effects are. Something about needing a large EMP to be able to test the effects of a large EMP. (^_^)
Under the Tyvek - you don't want the chicken wire to rust. [wink] And yes, exactly like that cage at the MOS - and very importantly, it needs to be grounded.
 
A spoiler alert would have been nice.

Sorry about that, Chief. That better? [wink]

I figured that everyone had read it by the time they got this far in the thread/discussion.

Maybe the version I read was a later one - I seem to recall that it's posted in bits on frugalsquirrel.com and there's also a PDF download that's the whole story in one. I think I downloaded the PDF. That may be why Mikey didn't remember that part. Might have been an edit.
 
As far as my questions I was looking to see more detail in the story WRT the nukes and the Arab guy but I guess that was really not pertinent to the story. Like how anyone could get a nuke 300 miles up above the U.S.?
 
As far as my questions I was looking to see more detail in the story WRT the nukes and the Arab guy but I guess that was really not pertinent to the story. Like how anyone could get a nuke 300 miles up above the U.S.?

The same way the rich guy from Virgin funded the Scaled Composites.

http://www.scaled.com/

If you have the $$$ you can do anything you want.
 
Yeah, the EMP thing caused me to do a little web research myself. I'm still suspicious about how big a trouble and how bad it really would be. I'm also not sure anyone really knows for sure, and if they do, I'm sure the air force has their reports classified. The results from the starfish test (last space-burst over the pacific) pegged their instrumentation, blew out a couple of strings of series connected street lights in Hawaii, and shut down HF radio for a while.

One guess (from http://blackmagic.com/ses/bruceg/EMC/EMP-Light.html) has the initial field strength at about 3kV/m (spread across the entire RF spectrum), or about twice as much bang as a typical nearby lightning strike.

That being said, most if not all of our electronics these days are pretty solidly shielded to keep their own internally generated RF noise inside the box (FCC part 15 compliance among others). The auto manufacturer's factory standards for emissions make part 15 look wimpy, especially around the broadcast and CB bands. That shielding works both ways.
The line conducted stuff coming in through the wires is where it gets vulnerable. I’m talking about a power surge that will last several seconds, and be monumental. If we are lucky, every surge protector in the house will kick in and conduct enough of it to trip the main breaker before everything plugged in (and turned on) dies. In other words, your cell phone itself just might survive, while the rest of the network goes down.

Does anyone know if a direct lightning strike will fry a car's electronic systems? (either turned on or off) I'm betting that 10,000 amps flowing over the surface of the car body would make a decent simulated EMP source. They may not be the same thing, but I don't think they're that different.

The power distribution grid is vulnerable. It goes down on its own when everyone turns on their AC at the same time. That colossal power surge the EMP will generate will damage it and initially cause widespread blackouts. I don't think it will get totally screwed however. It isn't going to blow up every substation and pole pig in the network. Lightning ACTUALLY HITS power lines every now and then and the gear designed to die first and “take one for the team” does so, saving everything else. (I.e. high voltage fuses) If an EMP does manage to fry everything else, our lives will probably end in that same white flash. I expect that the network will go down, and every last lineman on the payroll will be doing overtime checking/replacing every last fuse in the network. The big question is will they get to our streets before they run out of replacements.

The power plants will be pretty resilient. I once scored a hardhat tour of the Sesquehanna power storage facility in upstate NY and got an up close look at their generators and systems. The primary controllers on top of the turbines, regulating the speed (keeping it in phase with the grid) were 100% mechanical. You can't make it more EMP proof than that. They also run emergency drills where their operators go down into the bowels of the plant and drive the systems directly off the big control cabinets. (no computers, just big switches, meters, etc.) Remember, the owners will also count of hundreds if not thousands of dollars of lost revenue for each second of downtime. No plant manager in their right mind is going to let some cheap little circuit get in the way of their operation. They will have at least one or two spares at all times on site along with those backup protocols and emergency drills. Coal plants also keep a month or two of fuel onsite in case of supply disruptions like railroad strikes, etc.
 
I seem to remember some show on Discovery or the Science Channel or one of those sticking two guys inside of a car and doing a simulated lightning strike on it - and they were no issues.
 
Russia already have the equipment. A lot of their military inventory was lost when parts of Russia started breaking off. If you can't develop it without getting caught, everybody has a price. N. Korea is attempting ICBMs. Once they have them anything is game.
 
I think we need to "test" some MOAB bombs on North Korea.

"Sorry we kind of veered off course, you know those stupid lasers and GPS units just are not that good..."[devil2]
 
Only problem with that is that we'd get SOUTH Korea, too, and last I heard they're our friends. Not the sort of thing you want to do your friends.
 
Nah, MOAB's are pretty manageable and accurate. We should be good to go. How many do we want to order? They promise 30 mintues or less. [smile]
 
A few months ago, I tried testing various Faraday cages by putting a small battery powered radio into them. I was surprised that I wasn't able to find a single "cage" that completely silenced the radio station. Microwave did NOTHING to the radio. A closed ammo box greatly reduced the signal but I could still hear the station... maybe the gasket has a negative effect. Putting radio in a box and covering with foil didn't do much to it either. Metal cash box had no effect.

One of these days I'll try several layers with the outer being an ammo box, then I'll ground that. I haven't gotten around to that yet though.
 
Nope, no grounds. That's probably why it didn't work well?

It's just rather awkward dealing with an object that's grounded... have to run a wire outside (and cut hole somewhere), and connect to ground rod. Although, I could of course just do a test by connecting it to a pipe; not sure if that's a very good ground?
 
Nope, no grounds. That's probably why it didn't work well?

It's just rather awkward dealing with an object that's grounded... have to run a wire outside (and cut hole somewhere), and connect to ground rod. Although, I could of course just do a test by connecting it to a pipe; not sure if that's a very good ground?
Right - it needs to be grounded. As for a pipe... I'd think it would work but I don't know for sure if it would be a good enough ground.
 
Right - it needs to be grounded. As for a pipe... I'd think it would work but I don't know for sure if it would be a good enough ground.

Having spent some time inside EMC test chambers trying to get digital (embedded computing) systems to quit radiating, I will state that grounding isn't the issue. The gasket for the lid is. The gasket has to be conductive all the way around. You have to make an electrical connection all the way around the perimeter of the opening you are plugging.

Examples of these conductive gaskets include those annoying bronze fingers on you PC case, as well as the door into your local MRI chamber. (btw: MRI systems work by getting the water molecules in your body to make RF by pushing a colossal magnetic field through you, and about 0.0001% of them actually do it. Because of that the MRI itself is put in a very good faraday cage so they can pick it up.)
 
Could I convert an ammo can by removing the gasket and sanding off any paint that was under it? I'm not sure the fit would be all that good though... needs to have the lid make complete contact with the box. Maybe replace it with an aluminum foil gasket that squishes to the appropriate shape needed to make the seal? Hmmmm....
 
Could I convert an ammo can by removing the gasket and sanding off any paint that was under it? I'm not sure the fit would be all that good though... needs to have the lid make complete contact with the box. Maybe replace it with an aluminum foil gasket that squishes to the appropriate shape needed to make the seal? Hmmmm....
Sand off the paint along the top edge of the box and the inside of the gasket groove in the cover, then replace the rubber gasket with an RF gasket. There are metal (or fabric) mesh covered foam, carbon (or silver) loaded rubber (etc) types of gasket materials. This wipes out the waterproof/airtight properties of the can, but gives convenient access. You will need to match the size to the gasket groove. Chomerics in Woburn is also a pretty big manufacturer of this stuff as well.

For airtight storage without convenient access: Sand around the outside edges of the cover (for contact) and seal the edge with some copper foil "shielding tape". Don't use the flashing tape from home depot. Its glue is not conductive like the real stuff from the electronics distributors (like mouser.com).
 
Damn,
The Chomerics guys are advertising conductive elastomer gaskets providing EMI/EMP, and pressure seals. I may have to go at some of my 50 cal cans with my calipers and find out what their pricing & minimum buy quantities are.
 
I hadn't taken a look at my ammo cans before. That seal is just a hunk of diecut neoprene. I was hoping for a real o-ring like in a pelican box.

That being said, a mostly water resistant faraday box is still possible without having to get a gasket custom built. (which would require a group buy of several hundred to get the unit costs down.)

You'd clean the paint off the inside of the gasket groove and off the top edge of the can. To keep it from rusting and messing with the electrical connection spray some conductive coating (I'm not sure ordinary metallic paint conducts, but it is worth testing) into the groove. Then just and cut and stuff the gasket into there. It doesn't have to be a perfect fit, just don't leave any big gaps.

Mouser sells some D shaped EMI gasket material that would probably fit. Their catalog number is: 861-SG250375D-24
go to http://www.mouser.com to shop it. It'll cost about $8.50 They also stock 12 oz spray cans of conductive coating for just under $20, which is why I'd be tempted to test regular spray paint.
 
Got this from the experts at www.comtest.eu

For a reliable shielding you will need to meet a shielding attenuation of 80dB or more following the Mil-Std-188-125 document.

Measurements can be executed as described in Mil-Std-285 or EN50147-1.
 
80 dB attenuation? Looks like I'm not doing my house. Not only would I have issues with the windows and doors, but success would also kill any indoor cellphone, radio, TV (etc) reception.

Found Mil-Std-188-125. It is newer than anything else I've found to date. Thanks!

Other docs out that I've got on my bedtime reading list for this subject are:
Army TM 5-690 (dated 2002)
ADA275335 (army research lab report, 1993 vintage).
and EP 1110-3-2 (1990 vintage) which also talks about lightning protection

Mil-Std-285 is 1956 vintage! That pulsed electrical field generator design they specified that uses a Ford ignition coil is too cool. You gotta love how stuff like this can get such staying power. EN50147-1 is looking like it will cost $ to download.
 
IIRC there are two things that will cause problems - induced current along powerlines causing a huge spike as well as the RF burst.

Therefore if your devices are not plugged in AND do not have something that could act like an antenna (say the unplugged cord of your clock radio for example) then you should be OK.

Again, IIRC, the length of an antenna to pick up enough energey to fry something needs to be over 12 or 18 inches long.
 
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