Complicated question re: transfer

[Jay G]

I've gone through the Gun Laws section a couple of times, and found a similar (but not identical) issue to mine. Basically, a friend of my dad's passed away, leaving his wife with several guns. She wants them gone, and has offered them to dad. He has no interest in them, so will give them to me.

They're all handguns. To the best of my knowledge, none are on the AFR.

Now, if my reading of the similar thread is correct (and I will be the FIRST to admit I'm not sure), since she is the executrice of his estate, she can transfer the guns to me on FA-10s as a personal transfer.

Is my understanding correct?

If so, it should be checked as a personal transfer, but what should be put as a license number?

Would it be advisable to send the four FA-10s with a cover letter signed by the woman that she is the executrice of the estate of [NAME]?

Any help will be greatly appreciated. The guns in question are nice, but certainly not worth getting myself in trouble over. Have I mentioned lately that I hate this state???

 

[Scrivener]

We've covered this, and recently at that. Expand your SEARCH period.

Anyhow, IF she is indeed the executrix of the estate AND has been so approved by the court, yes she can convey the assets of the estate per the terms of the will. For the items not specifically bequested, she can dispose of them in such a way as to obtain the value (read: sell them to you) and then disburse the proceeds per the will.

Then again, if she is also THE beneficiary as well as executrix, or if the named beneficiaries agree, she can give just them to you. You need an FA-10 for each gun. I have always submitted them with a certified copy of the appointment of the executor/trix, obtained from the Probate Court (it's a public record).

This addresses the pesky "license number" issue and may - MAY - keep CHSB from inquiring into what might appear to be a mass purchase.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Assuming the Executrix is in MA, essentially you are correct. What goes in the blank for seller/transferor was discussed earlier in the Gun Laws forum and the answer is posted there (but I honestly don't recall what it was).

HTH

 

[Jay G]

Thanks Scrivener.

I did expand my search, and found the case of inheritance of rifles. I'm curious about the handguns, though.

If she is not the executrix (thanks, it's late and it's been a long day), then the guns would have to go through an FFL, correct?

If so, how does the matter of them being not on the AFR come into play? Can they not be transfered in MA?

Ugh. This is such a logistical nightmare. If I didn't like free guns so much I'd just pass...

 

[Scrivener]

If she is not the executrix (thanks, it's late and it's been a long day), then the guns would have to go through an FFL, correct?

If so, how does the matter of them being not on the AFR come into play? Can they not be transfered in MA?

There being no mention of the estate being outside Mass. and this being primarily a Mass. forum, my answer was predicated on this being a wholly domestic transfer.

If the guns are NOT in Mass., then the only lawful direct transfer is to a beneficiary specifically named in the will, which you are not. Transfer to you would then require a Mass. FFL, meaning the guns would have to be on the AFR or qualify under an exception (good luck with that!).

 

[Jay G]

Thanks for your patience, Scrivener.

The estate is in MA. Since it is in MA, is it assumed to be okay to transfer through an FFL? I apologize for my woefully inadequate knowledge of transfer laws - I haven't had a lot of experience in this realm...

There being no mention of the estate being outside Mass. and this being primarily a Mass. forum, my answer was predicated on this being a wholly domestic transfer.

If the guns are NOT in Mass., then the only lawful direct transfer is to a beneficiary specifically named in the will, which you are not. Transfer to you would then require a Mass. FFL, meaning the guns would have to be on the AFR or qualify under an exception (good luck with that!).

 

[Len-2A Training]

Thanks for your patience, Scrivener.

The estate is in MA. Since it is in MA, is it assumed to be okay to transfer through an FFL? I apologize for my woefully inadequate knowledge of transfer laws - I haven't had a lot of experience in this realm...

Not a safe assumption. Unless she can PROVE (to a MA Dealer) that the guns were legally registered in MA prior to 10/21/98, most dealers will NOT touch handguns that aren't on the EOPS List. [Most people do not keep their paperwork and MA destroyed all transfer records as follows: all private transfers prior to 10/21/98, all dealer transfers prior to 1986. So dealers are reluctant to face a $5K fine/gun if they can't prove "lineage".

If in-state and she is Executrix she should be able to do a transfer with no FFL via FA-10. That is my understanding (IANAL) from numerous Q&A with Chief Ron Glidden about this.

 

[Scrivener]

Thanks for your patience, Scrivener.

The estate is in MA. Since it is in MA, is it assumed to be okay to transfer through an FFL? I apologize for my woefully inadequate knowledge of transfer laws - I haven't had a lot of experience in this realm...

You missed the key - and ORIGINAL - point. Since the guns are already in Mass., no FFL is required.

As far as the Feds are concerned, interstate is interstate. Rifle, shotgun or handgun, an FFL is required; if a handgun, the FFL must be in the purchaser's state.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Scrivener, one notable exception (just to keep the record straight for other readers). BATFE is very clear, NO FFL required for interstate inheritance from Executor/Executrix (assuming state laws allow for this too).

 

[Scrivener]

Scrivener, one notable exception (just to keep the record straight for other readers). BATFE is very clear, NO FFL required for interstate inheritance from Executor/Executrix (assuming state laws allow for this too).

Which I stated in my original post, # 5. However, it does not hurt to recapitulate, because it IS a confusing subject.

 

[Jay G]

As I understood things, *if* she is indeed the executrix of the estate no FFL need be involved. If she is not (i.e. if he died intestate), then wouldn't I need one to transfer?

Wow, you'd think they make it this difficult on purpose...

I will ask if she is the executrix of the estate. If so, I will file all four guns on separate FA-10s.

Thanks again for your patience and advice. While I may be a tad on the thick side sometimes (just ask my wife...), I am capable of learning...

You missed the key - and ORIGINAL - point. Since the guns are already in Mass., no FFL is required.

As far as the Feds are concerned, interstate is interstate. Rifle, shotgun or handgun, an FFL is required; if a handgun, the FFL must be in the purchaser's state.

 

[Len-2A Training]

ANY transfers WITHIN the state (both parties MA Residents) do NOT need any FFL as long as both parties are licensed.

FA-10s for each gun are REQUIRED regardless of circumstances of transfer.

 

[Jay G]

Len,

Thanks for the clarification, but I *do* know that much.

The issue, for me, is that the woman who wants to give me her late husband's gun is not licensed. Were she licensed, I'd just get her Lic.# for the FA-10 and I wouldn't have even bothered posting anything here. Heck, I just did the same thing last month with three guns from another friend of my dad's. He was moving to FLA, and didn't want to take three guns with him, so he gave them to me. Since he was licensed, and hadn't sold any firearms privately this year, we filled out the forms and went about our business.

Part of the issue, I think, is that I wasn't clear on my question. Here are the most salient points:

*The four guns in question are handguns. It is doubtful any are on the AFR.

*All parties are MA residents. The firearms are currently in-state.

*The woman in question is not a MA licensed gun owner. Her husband, a retired MA State cop, was licensed but has passed on.

*I am not sure if she is the executrix of his estate.

My question, then, becomes two-part:

1. If she is the executrix of his estate, can we do a private transfer via FA-10, leaving the seller lic.# blank?

2. If she is NOT the executrix of the estate, is a private transfer via FA-10 no longer applicable? In this case, could the guns be transfered by an FFL?

Thanks, everyone, for your input.

ANY transfers WITHIN the state (both parties MA Residents) do NOT need any FFL as long as both parties are licensed.

FA-10s for each gun are REQUIRED regardless of circumstances of transfer.

 

[Scrivener]

My question, then, becomes two-part:

1. If she is the executrix of his estate, can we do a private transfer via FA-10, leaving the seller lic.# blank?[/QUOTE]

AGAIN, YES; but I would still include a copy of the appointment as executrix.

2. If she is NOT the executrix of the estate, is a private transfer via FA-10 no longer applicable? In this case, could the guns be transfered by an FFL?

An FFL is required on these facts.

 

[Jay G]

Scrivener and LenS,

Thank you very much for your assistance in this matter. I appreciate your help.

My question, then, becomes two-part:

1. If she is the executrix of his estate, can we do a private transfer via FA-10, leaving the seller lic.# blank?

AGAIN, YES; but I would still include a copy of the appointment as executrix.

An FFL is required on these facts.

 

[Len-2A Training]

There was a long discussion about this in another thread here that you should read thoroughly.

If you have to go thru an FFL, and you can't prove (with paper) that the guns were "in state" on 10/21/98, most FFLs will NOT transfer to anyone in MA (since you say the guns aren't on the EOPS List). Most people don't keep the paper from purchase back in the 19xx's.

Normally the surviving spouse handles the estate, regardless of any court appointment.

Normally people don't designate what guns they own in their wills or list names of people who are to get them specifically. Wills usually will say "I leave all my personal possessions to <name here>." or something like "I appoint <name here> executor/executrix and authorize them to dispose of all my personal possessions at their discretion".

Chief Ron Glidden in the past has advised people to put down seller as the decedent and where the signature of seller goes put down "administrator" or "executrix". Not sure that I feel comfortable with that, but I've seen him post that as (at one time) an acceptable to CHSB method. [BTW: I have seen "what is acceptable to CHSB" change with changes of administration to wit the Sec. of Public Safety. This pisses me off no end because what you are told is "legal and proper" today can suddenly be determined to be "illegal and improper" when a new Sec. of Public Safety is appointed! I have seen this specifically with the purchase of frames and building up a gun issue where Ron <was told and later told us> that NO FA-10 was required at all! Then a new administration determines that FA-10 is REQUIRED when gun built up!]

Scrivener and I will have to agree to disagree, but I'm not the type to provide CHSB with court papers of appointment. My job is NOT to make CHSB's job easier, it is to comply with the law and NOTHING MORE. Nothing requires that the dealer send a copy of the old FA-10 from 1976 with the new one a dealer fills out either, so I just wouldn't do it (wrt guns not on the List).

In the absolute strictest reading of the law, Scrivener could well be absolutely correct, but I'd probably opt for a middle-of-the-road approach between Ron Glidden's suggestion and Scrivener's. Just realize that IANAL and this is NOT legal advice, just my approach on a situation. BTW, I have never and will likely never be in this sort of position, so my position on this matter is strictly hypothetical.

 

[Scrivener]

Bad advice

There was a long discussion about this in another thread here that you should read thoroughly.

Not to mention at least one sticky: http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5804
Had the OP bothered to do even a minimal search, his questions would be answered.

Normally the surviving spouse handles the estate, regardless of any court appointment.

Really? Probated a lot of estates, have you, Len?

Regardless of what is claimed to be "normally" done, the only party with the LEGAL AUTHORITY to transfer assets from an estate is the person so appointed by the court. Period.

Chief Ron Glidden in the past has advised people to put down seller as the decedent and where the signature of seller goes put down "administrator" or "executrix". Not sure that I feel comfortable with that, but I've seen him post that as (at one time) an acceptable to CHSB method. [BTW: I have seen "what is acceptable to CHSB" change with changes of administration to wit the Sec. of Public Safety. This pisses me off no end because what you are told is "legal and proper" today can suddenly be determined to be "illegal and improper" when a new Sec. of Public Safety is appointed! I have seen this specifically with the purchase of frames and building up a gun issue where Ron <was told and later told us> that NO FA-10 was required at all! Then a new administration determines that FA-10 is REQUIRED when gun built up!]

Glidden's apparent advice is perfectly logical and perfectly consistent with what I've been told by CHSB senior staff. You can make your own decision.

As far as FA-10s for a mere frame goes, they are not required. While a frame is a gun under Federal law, it is NOT under Mass. law unless and until it is capable of discharging a projectile. Then, and only then, is the FA-10 required to be filed.

For all those nanny-state FFLs who "require" an FA-10 to transfer an overpriced paperweight, do tell us how you provide caliber, barrel length and finish for a bare frame...........

In the absolute strictest reading of the law, Scrivener could well be absolutely correct, but I'd probably opt for a middle-of-the-road approach between Ron Glidden's suggestion and Scrivener's. Just realize that IANAL and this is NOT legal advice, just my approach on a situation. BTW, I have never and will likely never be in this sort of position, so my position on this matter is strictly hypothetical.

Then, as you are NOT a lawyer and have admittedly NEVER been in the OP's position, perhaps you should refrain from presuming to advise him on that which you know so little about...

 

[Jay G]

In my defense, I am not exactly inheriting these firearms. I am not heir to the deceased; in fact I am not even related.

I read through that thread, as well as the one dealing with the rifle inheritance. I posted a new thread because in my case it's handguns that are the issue - and as such the Approved Firearms Roster comes into play.

I figured - quite possibly in error - that my situation was unique enough to warrant a separate thread.

Not to mention at least one sticky: http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5804
Had the OP bothered to do even a minimal search, his questions would be answered.

 

[Scrivener]

In my defense, I am not exactly inheriting these firearms. I am not heir to the deceased; in fact I am not even related.

I read through that thread, as well as the one dealing with the rifle inheritance. I posted a new thread because in my case it's handguns that are the issue - and as such the Approved Firearms Roster comes into play.

I figured - quite possibly in error - that my situation was unique enough to warrant a separate thread.

The fact that you are dealing w/handguns DOES add a very deep level of complication - the infamous AFR. However, the utility of the inheritance thread was the discussion of the authority of executors and how to file FA-10s. Hence, my remarks.

 

[Jay G]

Follow-up: Dad invited the woman in question over for Thanksgiving dinner. She is the executrix of the estate. Looks like I'm good to go.

Once again, thanks for your help & patience.

The fact that you are dealing w/handguns DOES add a very deep level of complication - the infamous AFR. However, the utility of the inheritance thread was the discussion of the authority of executors and how to file FA-10s. Hence, my remarks.

 

[bazfoo]

Now sign over 3 of the 4 guns over to Scrivener as payment

 

[szaino]

Rather than start a new thread I have a similar inheritance issue:

My wife's father who was residing in NH died and had a shotgun and a 22cal pistol. Both forearms were purchased in Mass circa 1970's ( I have the receipts). The father had resided in Mass most of his life and only moved to NH 5 years ago.

My wife (no firearm license) is beneficiary and executor. I have a LTC-ALP. We want to transport the guns to our home in Mass.

My feeling is to file an FA-10 form for both guns and have my wife sign as executor etc and transfer to me. This way the guns are registered to me, will be under my control and if I ever want to sell them there should be no problems.

Is this the best/easiest/correct way to do it?