Comm2A, SAF, GOAL and FPC file against Baker admin on shop closures

[n1oty]

It's interesting to read both proposed orders. Comm2A's proposed order basically treats gun stores like any other store that is currently open, so my wife could go into a gun shop without a facial covering. She has a legit medical condition that is well documented in her medical record and the governor's EO allows for these types of exemptions. The Commonwealth's proposed order specifically does NOT include the aforementioned exemption. Am I to believe that the Commonwealth couldn't care less about the ADA in this case 'cuz gunzz??? And yes, she has her own LTC, last purchased a handgun in February and has her own safe for her own gunzz!

 

[Coyote33]

Exactly, it’s VERY telling that they are still proposing a higher and more restrictive standard for gun stores. Like as if they are calling the Judges bluff. They are telegraphing in bold font that this is a politics thing and that guns are not welcome in the commonwealth. There is no other justification for why the proposed order is stricter than for liquor stores or Home Depot etc

Imagine if the civil right was race or sex.

Sure there is! Liquor lobby is stronger in MA than the gun lobby!

Exactly. Also number of liquor users is larger than the number of gun users.

Not quite as simple as that... How many people in the state are upset over closing gun shops and ranges relative to the number of people who support the closings? Now, close the liquor stores and you might have city blocks burning in places like Springfield, Lawrence, Fall River, and New Bedford.

Actually, that is pretty darned simple right there.

So now what happens to the cops who refuse to process licenses?

I don't think that is a part of this suit. Is there a separate suit for licensing? I don't even know.

 

[zork51]

It's interesting to read both proposed orders. Comm2A's proposed order basically treats gun stores like any other store that is currently open, so my wife could go into a gun shop without a facial covering. She has a legit medical condition that is well documented in her medical record and the governor's EO allows for these types of exemptions. The Commonwealth's proposed order specifically does NOT include the aforementioned exemption. Am I to believe that the Commonwealth couldn't care less about the ADA in this case 'cuz gunzz??? And yes, she has her own LTC, last purchased a handgun in February and has her own safe for her own gunzz!

Thanks for your service and no, Guv likely doesn't care. Best to your missus.

 

[EJFudd]

don't forget only 4 transactions an hour

Such complete BS.

Carl ain't gonna like that. Can they please raise that to 40 per hour?

 

[Alexalex322]

Such complete BS.

Carl ain't gonna like that. Can they please raise that to 40 per hour?

I want to see record numbers when shops open. I dont need another gun but maybe I’ll buy 2.

 

[EJFudd]

I want to see record numbers when shops open. I don't need another gun but maybe I’ll buy 2.

Yep. That's my plan too. Take what you would have bought... and double it in honor of Maura & Faker.

 

[MarkT]

I want to see record numbers when shops open. I dont need another gun but maybe I’ll buy 2.

Yep. That's my plan too. Take what you would have bought... and double it in honor of Maura & Faker.

Yup, my plan as well.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Four sales per hour is not a viable business model for a shop that operates in the black - and that's assuming that each of those four per hour actually shows up on time for their slot and makes a purchase. Consider too the ratio of appointment slots to demand. Getting an appointment at Four Seasons could be about as easy as picking up a case of K95 masks at the local market after you fill your basket up with Clorox sanitizing wipes.

Attorney David Jensen is very competent, a good guy, and I feel very comfortable with him being the person to draft and advocate for Comm2a's version of the order.

I haven't seen the existing governor's order for the "Over 60 and vulnerable people" shopping hour (the sign on Wegmans claims it is an order, as that company has opposed doing so voluntarily), so I wonder - if the Jensen version is issued, will gun shops have a special seniors hour?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

WTS - * SPF- High Standard Sentinel Revolver $250

Location: Plymouth, Ma Description:High Standard R-103. 9 shot, .22 caliber revolver. Has the Plastic factory grips, good pinker double action. No box or manual. Selling Terms: Cash Only, no shipping. EFA10 Goose Rules Apply-All Federal and State Laws followed. Price: $250.00 Contact...

www.northeastshooters.com

They cite an ad for an out of production gun for which factory service (even non-warrantee) is not available and one may or may not be able to get replacement parts when things break. I'm almost surprised the AG did not argue the .22LR is an acceptable defense round because the Mossad uses it in professional assassinations.

 

[boscru]

Not quite as simple as that... How many people in the state are upset over closing gun shops and ranges relative to the number of people who support the closings? Now, close the liquor stores and you might have city blocks burning in places like Springfield, Lawrence, Fall River, and New Bedford.

no love for brockton?

 

[nstassel]

Edit: Wizard^

Just lol at Wolf99's 22 revolver classified add making it into the case as an example of private sale availability. Clearly they chose a 22 as an example that walmart sells "handgun" ammo.

I wonder if it would help or hurt the case to buy this and get the listing taken down. "See you honor, that listing is no longer valid, there is voracious demand out there and it's hard to get your hands on the limited supply"

Affidavit – #88 in MCCARTHY v. BAKER (D. Mass., 1:20-cv-10701) – CourtListener.com

AFFIDAVIT of Michaela Dunne by CHARLES D. BAKER, MONICA BHAREL, JAMISON GAGNON. (Kobick, Julia) (Entered: 05/06/2020)

www.courtlistener.com

WTS - * SPF- High Standard Sentinel Revolver $250

Location: Plymouth, Ma Description:High Standard R-103. 9 shot, .22 caliber revolver. Has the Plastic factory grips, good pinker double action. No box or manual. Selling Terms: Cash Only, no shipping. EFA10 Goose Rules Apply-All Federal and State Laws followed. Price: $250.00 Contact...

www.northeastshooters.com

Immediately all classified should be moved to members only access if it's not already.

 

[Yazz]

The gun stores in Roxbury are still open.

 

[Alexalex322]

Yep. That's my plan too. Take what you would have bought... and double it in honor of Maura & Faker.

every firearm purchased is like destroying one of maura’s horcruxes.

 

[Drix]

Not quite as simple as that... How many people in the state are upset over closing gun shops and ranges relative to the number of people who support the closings? Now, close the liquor stores and you might have city blocks burning in places like Springfield, Lawrence, Fall River, and New Bedford.

I was paraphrasing something the judge said.

Am I to believe that the Commonwealth couldn't care less about the ADA in this case 'cuz gunzz??? And yes, she has her own LTC, last purchased a handgun in February and has her own safe for her own gunzz!

You're under the false assumption that the AG's office/state at any time took a step back after drafting their orders and said aloud in the meeting "Does any of this interfere with a person's rights?".

The gun stores in Roxbury are still open.

Heard one of the local dealer's has a Sûreté Spécial, never been fired, dropped only once.
Oh, thats dark.

 

[Boston4567]

So now what happens to the cops who refuse to process licenses?

That one's more complicated, I think. There is no state prohibition on the issuance of LTCs, the FRB is operating, and there are in fact police departments that are issuing LTCs. So you can't sue the governor or the FRB - there's no single neck to squeeze. Even if you find a group of plaintiffs from around the state, and sue the police chiefs in those towns, you risk getting an order that applies only to those towns. Or worse, an order that applies only to those plaintiffs.

I'm sure Comm2a and the other groups are working out the logistics of how to obtain an effective statewide injunction on LTC issuance, but that's best worked through in a separate case, with the gun shop ruling in hand for its persuasive value.

There is a reasonable chance that this ruling will persuade many police chiefs across the state that it's time to start issuing LTCs to new applicants again. Chiefs and other town officials may find it preferable to start pulling in application fees rather than racking up legal bills for their revenue-starved towns to fight a losing battle.

Four sales per hour, may not increase hourts is not a viable business model for a shop that operates in the black - and that's assuming that each of those 4 per hour actually shows up on time for their slot and makes a purchase. Consider too the ratio of appointment slots to demand. Getting an appointment at Four Seasons could be about as easy as picking up a case of K95 masks at the local market after you fill your basket up with Clorox sanitizing wipes.

Four sales per hour... including ammo. Ammo sales count against the four transactions per hour, and can also only be done by appointment in the state's proposed order.

 

[Yazz]

How many flowers an hour can the flower shops sell?

 

[Quite_Exasperated]

4 an hour? No problem, since we can do personal sales with no issues, let’s say I buy lots of guns I might like, then I can sell them in the parking lot if I decide I don’t really like them..

 

[mpd61]

When a firearm is used in a domestic dispute (legally owned) guess what the number one profession is of the person using the firearm? U guessed it, LEO.

Why? After all we're fighting for, do we have to keep up this divide and conquer, gotta be angry at somebody always-BS? can you cite the study or research for this statement? Wow. After about 25 pages I was really happy about "united we stand". Now I just want to puke...........

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

So now what happens to the cops who refuse to process licenses?

That's a very different and more complicated case. But, I think it's one that's also winnable. Let's face it, processing LTCs is a low priority, administrative function for most police departments.

First we'd need a plaintiff. Someone who was not otherwise prohibited and had a BFS certificate in hand. AND who was willing to sue their local police department. That's a unicorn. You almost cant get that person without manufacturing them.

And in some sense, we've been trying to manufacture that person for ten years so that we could challenge non-statutory requirements like reference letters or the limited availability of application appointments.

Also, such a case would moot out very quickly. If we did have that 'unicorn' the PD, probably at the urging of the AG's office, would find a way to get that application processed.

 

[white feather]

The gun stores in Roxbury are still open.

Ted the Rat is still open...

 

[Waher]

They cite an ad for an out of production gun for which factory service (even non-warrantee) is not available and one may or may not be able to get replacement parts when things break. I'm almost surprised the AG did not argue the .22LRi is an acceptable defense round because the Mossad uses it in professional assassinations.

They cited an ad for a gun not on the EOPS roster or the non-existent AG's list. I hope somehow that can be rammed down the AG's throat. They argued in the Glock case about the importance of their secret list protecting consumers from unsafe products from licensed commercial dealers and now that it's convenient in this case, "list what list?! consumers don't need no stinkin' list or licensed commercial dealers".

 

[Drix]

4 an hour? No problem, since we can do personal sales with no issues, let’s say I buy lots of guns I might like, then I can sell them in the parking lot if I decide I don’t really like them..

Can only sell 4 a year... which brings up two questions:

1. What the f*** is with this state and "4"?
2. Does that mean ffls wont be doing sales and just pure cash transfers and as such forcing buyers out of state again? This isnt well thought out.

 

[Alexalex322]

Can only sell 4 a year... which brings up two questions:

1. What the f*** is with this state and "4"?
2. Does that mean ffls wont be doing sales and just pure cash transfers and as such forcing buyers out of state again? This isnt well thought out.

Because science

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

It's interesting to read both proposed orders. Comm2A's proposed order basically treats gun stores like any other store that is currently open, so my wife could go into a gun shop without a facial covering. She has a legit medical condition that is well documented in her medical record and the governor's EO allows for these types of exemptions. The Commonwealth's proposed order specifically does NOT include the aforementioned exemption. Am I to believe that the Commonwealth couldn't care less about the ADA in this case 'cuz gunzz??? And yes, she has her own LTC, last purchased a handgun in February and has her own safe for her own gunzz!

And hopefully the court will see gun stores as any other essential business. The four (or whatever) per hours limit is not necessarily unreasonable except that it's only being applied to retailers that sell guns and ammunition. It's reasonable to say 1 person for every x number of square feet or x% of capacity. But if there's low limit for florists, what rational does the Commonwealth have fore apply the limit to gun stores.

There is a reasonable chance that this ruling will persuade many police chiefs across the state that it's time to start issuing LTCs to new applicants again. Chiefs and other town officials may find it preferable to start pulling in application fees rather than racking up legal bills for their revenue-starved towns to fight a losing battle.

LTC licensing revenue isn't a line item for police chiefs or towns. The chief's don't want to get dragged into Baker or Healey inspired litigation, that's true. But until we find that 'unicorn' (see my other post), the PDs are good.

Expiring licenses might be an exception. Those can be done by mail and some PDs are doing that. Also, I'd love to defend someone with a lapsed LTC only because the PD's policy choices prevented that person from renewing. Bring it on. But it won't come.

 

[FN atic]

local shop was open for a bit but seemed to have been shutdown overnight but still servicing local police and gov't. Whatever keeps the food on the table but I'd refuse to help the people telling me to shut my doors on something the trump administration said was essential. Not to mention like everyone else liquor stores are still open. Let's see the stats on how many alcohol related deaths vs gun in MA since we were forced to stop our lives by the gov.

 

[Quite_Exasperated]

Can only sell 4 a year... which brings up two questions:

1. What the f*** is with this state and "4"?
2. Does that mean ffls wont be doing sales and just pure cash transfers and as such forcing buyers out of state again? This isnt well thought out.

Those bastards!

 

[Duxprep]

Four sales per hour is not a viable business model for a shop that operates in the black - and that's assuming that each of those four per hour actually shows up on time for their slot and makes a purchase. Consider too the ratio of appointment slots to demand. Getting an appointment at Four Seasons could be about as easy as picking up a case of K95 masks at the local market after you fill your basket up with Clorox sanitizing wipes.

Attorney David Jensen is very competent, a good guy, and I feel very comfortable with him being the person to draft and advocate for Comm2a's version of the order.

I haven't seen the existing governor's order for the "Over 60 and vulnerable people" shopping hour (the sign on Wegmans claims it is an order, as that company has opposed doing so voluntarily), so I wonder - if the Jensen version is issued, will gun shops have a special seniors hour?

Who exactly is maintaining this appointment book and who from the state is confirming that there isn't a fifth appointment per hour. Total nonsense that should and will get slapped down

 

[Drix]

Who exactly is maintaining this appointment book and who from the state is confirming that there isn't a fifth appointment per hour. Total nonsense that should and will get slapped down

I'm sure mircs.

This isnt well thought out

 

[Len-2A Training]

Also, Maura confirmed she does indeed peruse NES on occasion, apparently for old .22 revolvers - see the last page here (Hi Maura!): https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mad.220544/gov.uscourts.mad.220544.88.0.pdf

Read that again. It was by Michaela Dunne, FRB Director, not Maura. And I know Michaela . . . she is nothing like the Wicked Witch of the West. Michaela probably got orders from the AG or EOPS (her bosses) to dig that info up and swear out an affidavit.

don't forget only 4 transactions an hour

Four sales per hour is not a viable business model for a shop that operates in the black - and that's assuming that each of those four per hour actually shows up on time for their slot and makes a purchase. Consider too the ratio of appointment slots to demand. Getting an appointment at Four Seasons could be about as easy as picking up a case of K95 masks at the local market after you fill your basket up with Clorox sanitizing wipes.

Attorney David Jensen is very competent, a good guy, and I feel very comfortable with him being the person to draft and advocate for Comm2a's version of the order.

I haven't seen the existing governor's order for the "Over 60 and vulnerable people" shopping hour (the sign on Wegmans claims it is an order, as that company has opposed doing so voluntarily), so I wonder - if the Jensen version is issued, will gun shops have a special seniors hour?

The NMT 4 transactions per hour are guaranteed to put said gun dealers out of business. No way to stay in the black with that restriction. Also if I were to go into a shop and buy 4 or 5 boxes of 9mm, I can be out the door in less than 5 minutes . . . the next 10 minutes the dealer has zero customers. It just doesn't work and the AGO knows this . . . and that is why they added that restriction to their proposal.

 

[Alexalex322]

Read that again. It was by Michaela Dunne, FRB Director, not Maura. And I know Michaela . . . she is nothing like the Wicked Witch of the West. Michaela probably got orders from the AG or EOPS (her bosses) to dig that info up and swear out an affidavit.



The NMT 4 transactions per hour are guaranteed to put said gun dealers out of business. No way to stay in the black with that restriction. Also if I were to go into a shop and buy 4 or 5 boxes of 9mm, I can be out the door in less than 5 minutes . . . the next 10 minutes the dealer has zero customers. It just doesn't work and the AGO knows this . . . and that is why they added that restriction to their proposal.

there is no compromise, the judge will need to decide.