Comm2A, SAF, GOAL and FPC file against Baker admin on shop closures

Boston4567 said:
Maura's ("Contested") Proposed Form of Order: https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mad.220544/gov.uscourts.mad.220544.77.0.pdf

The highlights are:
  1. It starts with lots of whining
  2. Gun stores can open by appointment only, no more than four transactions per hour, no extended hours beyond what they were open for before.
  3. Ranges can open at 40% capacity, no extended hours
  4. Ten prescriptive social distancing requirements
  5. Two days' notice before it takes effect.
I'm not sure if PACER accepts video clips, but if they do, I would suggest this as Comm2a's response:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnmIoF_2Q4Y
Click to expand...


It seems they agree with Don Michael.

In preparing this Proposed Form of Order, the Defendants’ counsel repeatedly
sought to consult with the Plaintiffs’ counsel on the substance of this submission, but did not
receive feedback on this Proposed Form of Order from Plaintiffs’ counsel with sufficient time to
Case 1:20-cv-10701-DPW Document 77 Filed 05/06/20 Page 1 of 5
reach agreement.
 
Tinkermatic said:
Are you a lawyer? Your updates and insight have kept me well informed on a case very few normal citizens are aware of. I keep reading and hitting the like button because I feel like I’m out of my league and have very little to offer in the way of commentary. I’ve only got 1 business law class under my belt and this certainly wasn’t in it!
I appreciate the candor.
Click to expand...

Not a lawyer, but I sure like arguing. I considered law school, but decided it wouldn't be sufficiently lucrative unless I got into a boring area of law, plus I wasn't up for another 3 years of schooling.

SERE said:
It seems they agree with Don Michael.

In preparing this Proposed Form of Order, the Defendants’ counsel repeatedly
sought to consult with the Plaintiffs’ counsel on the substance of this submission, but did not
receive feedback on this Proposed Form of Order from Plaintiffs’ counsel with sufficient time to
Case 1:20-cv-10701-DPW Document 77 Filed 05/06/20 Page 1 of 5
reach agreement.
Click to expand...
Indeed. Comm2a's proposed form of order: https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mad.220544/gov.uscourts.mad.220544.80.0.pdf

"Gun dealers [...], shooting ranges, and ammunition dealers [...], are to be considered “essential services” [...], and shall be subject to no regulations unless such regulations are generally applicable to all retail sellers of commodities; Licensed shooting ranges shall follow all social distancing recommendations for outdoor activities."

Also, Maura confirmed she does indeed peruse NES on occasion, apparently for old .22 revolvers - see the last page here (Hi Maura!): https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mad.220544/gov.uscourts.mad.220544.88.0.pdf
 
Edit: Wizard^

Just lol at Wolf99's 22 revolver classified add making it into the case as an example of private sale availability. Clearly they chose a 22 as an example that walmart sells "handgun" ammo.

I wonder if it would help or hurt the case to buy this and get the listing taken down. "See you honor, that listing is no longer valid, there is voracious demand out there and it's hard to get your hands on the limited supply"

www.courtlistener.com

Affidavit – #88 in MCCARTHY v. BAKER (D. Mass., 1:20-cv-10701) – CourtListener.com

AFFIDAVIT of Michaela Dunne by CHARLES D. BAKER, MONICA BHAREL, JAMISON GAGNON. (Kobick, Julia) (Entered: 05/06/2020)
www.courtlistener.com www.courtlistener.com

www.northeastshooters.com

WTS - * SPF- High Standard Sentinel Revolver $250

Location: Plymouth, Ma Description:High Standard R-103. 9 shot, .22 caliber revolver. Has the Plastic factory grips, good pinker double action. No box or manual. Selling Terms: Cash Only, no shipping. EFA10 Goose Rules Apply-All Federal and State Laws followed. Price: $250.00 Contact...
www.northeastshooters.com www.northeastshooters.com
 
Boston4567 said:
Not a lawyer, but I sure like arguing. I considered law school, but decided it wouldn't be sufficiently lucrative unless I got into a boring area of law, plus I wasn't up for another 3 years of schooling.


Indeed. Comm2a's proposed form of order: https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mad.220544/gov.uscourts.mad.220544.80.0.pdf

"Gun dealers [...], shooting ranges, and ammunition dealers [...], are to be considered “essential services” [...], and shall be subject to no regulations unless such regulations are generally applicable to all retail sellers of commodities; Licensed shooting ranges shall follow all social distancing recommendations for outdoor activities."

Also, Maura confirmed she does indeed peruse NES on occasion, apparently for old .22 revolvers - see the last page here (Hi Maura!): https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mad.220544/gov.uscourts.mad.220544.88.0.pdf
Click to expand...

Now that the proposals are in, when can we expect a decision?

Hey Maura! 374AB353-8D19-4F80-878D-327FF350CF89.gif
 
Here it is ladies and gentleman, in all its pathetic, insufferable, and injudicial glory:

It is hereby ORDERED: Gun dealers licensed pursuant to G.L. c. 140 § 122 may conduct sales of firearms and other goods, and may sell ammunition if licensed pursuant to G.L. c. 140, § 122B, by appointment only, with no more than four appointments per hour; and are limited to operating only within the normal working hours during which they operated prior to the State of Emergency declared by the Governor on March 10, 2020;

Licensed shooting ranges shall limit occupancy to 40 percent of the maximum permitted occupancy level, as documented in their occupancy permits on record with the municipal records holder, and are limited to operating only within the normal working hours during which they operated prior to the State of Emergency declared by the Governor on March 10, 2020; Case 1:20-cv-10701-DPW Document 77 Filed 05/06/20 Page 4 of 5

All businesses subject to this order will ensure that proper social distancing measures are in place at all times, including, but not limited to,

1) Ensuring that all employees and customers cover their nose and mouth with a mask or cloth face covering;

2) Allowing access to hand-washing facilities for customers and employees and allowing employees sufficient break time to wash hands between appointments;

3) Providing alcohol-based wipes to customers and employees, if available;

4) Establishing procedures to ensure that customers remain at least six feet apart from each other at all times, both inside and outside the business premises;

5) Providing full or partial glass or plastic barriers, if feasible, between employee areas behind counters and areas open to customers;

6) Establishing procedures to sanitize frequent touchpoints throughout the day, including point of sale terminals and registers;

7) Establishing procedures to sanitize any merchandise that is handled by customers but is not purchased and taken away by the customer;

8) Establishing procedures under which employees and other personnel who are sick shall not return to work without compliance with medically prescribed quarantine procedures; and to the extent they have symptoms of Covid-19 at work are sent home;

9) Posting signs at all entrance points that a) inform customers that the business is operating on an appointment only basis with instructions for making appointments; and b) requesting that customers who have symptoms of Covid-19 not enter the premises; and

10) Establishing such other procedures that the business deems necessary to limit the spread of the virus that causes Covid-19. The terms of this Order will take effect two business days after its issuance in order to allow for notice by Commonwealth public safety officials to licensees, licensing authorities, state and local law enforcement officials, and to members of the public.
 
Bladerunner said:
Here it is ladies and gentleman, in all its pathetic, insufferable, and injudicial glory:

It is hereby ORDERED: Gun dealers licensed pursuant to G.L. c. 140 § 122 may conduct sales of firearms and other goods, and may sell ammunition if licensed pursuant to G.L. c. 140, § 122B, by appointment only, with no more than four appointments per hour; and are limited to operating only within the normal working hours during which they operated prior to the State of Emergency declared by the Governor on March 10, 2020;

Licensed shooting ranges shall limit occupancy to 40 percent of the maximum permitted occupancy level, as documented in their occupancy permits on record with the municipal records holder, and are limited to operating only within the normal working hours during which they operated prior to the State of Emergency declared by the Governor on March 10, 2020; Case 1:20-cv-10701-DPW Document 77 Filed 05/06/20 Page 4 of 5

All businesses subject to this order will ensure that proper social distancing measures are in place at all times, including, but not limited to,

1) Ensuring that all employees and customers cover their nose and mouth with a mask or cloth face covering;

2) Allowing access to hand-washing facilities for customers and employees and allowing employees sufficient break time to wash hands between appointments;

3) Providing alcohol-based wipes to customers and employees, if available;

4) Establishing procedures to ensure that customers remain at least six feet apart from each other at all times, both inside and outside the business premises;

5) Providing full or partial glass or plastic barriers, if feasible, between employee areas behind counters and areas open to customers;

6) Establishing procedures to sanitize frequent touchpoints throughout the day, including point of sale terminals and registers;

7) Establishing procedures to sanitize any merchandise that is handled by customers but is not purchased and taken away by the customer;

8) Establishing procedures under which employees and other personnel who are sick shall not return to work without compliance with medically prescribed quarantine procedures; and to the extent they have symptoms of Covid-19 at work are sent home;

9) Posting signs at all entrance points that a) inform customers that the business is operating on an appointment only basis with instructions for making appointments; and b) requesting that customers who have symptoms of Covid-19 not enter the premises; and

10) Establishing such other procedures that the business deems necessary to limit the spread of the virus that causes Covid-19. The terms of this Order will take effect two business days after its issuance in order to allow for notice by Commonwealth public safety officials to licensees, licensing authorities, state and local law enforcement officials, and to members of the public.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a new lawsuit setup
 
Bladerunner said:
Here it is ladies and gentleman, in all its pathetic, insufferable, and injudicial glory:

It is hereby ORDERED: Gun dealers licensed pursuant to G.L. c. 140 § 122 may conduct sales of firearms and other goods, and may sell ammunition if licensed pursuant to G.L. c. 140, § 122B, by appointment only, with no more than four appointments per hour; and are limited to operating only within the normal working hours during which they operated prior to the State of Emergency declared by the Governor on March 10, 2020;

Licensed shooting ranges shall limit occupancy to 40 percent of the maximum permitted occupancy level, as documented in their occupancy permits on record with the municipal records holder, and are limited to operating only within the normal working hours during which they operated prior to the State of Emergency declared by the Governor on March 10, 2020; Case 1:20-cv-10701-DPW Document 77 Filed 05/06/20 Page 4 of 5

All businesses subject to this order will ensure that proper social distancing measures are in place at all times, including, but not limited to,

1) Ensuring that all employees and customers cover their nose and mouth with a mask or cloth face covering;

2) Allowing access to hand-washing facilities for customers and employees and allowing employees sufficient break time to wash hands between appointments;

3) Providing alcohol-based wipes to customers and employees, if available;

4) Establishing procedures to ensure that customers remain at least six feet apart from each other at all times, both inside and outside the business premises;

5) Providing full or partial glass or plastic barriers, if feasible, between employee areas behind counters and areas open to customers;

6) Establishing procedures to sanitize frequent touchpoints throughout the day, including point of sale terminals and registers;

7) Establishing procedures to sanitize any merchandise that is handled by customers but is not purchased and taken away by the customer;

8) Establishing procedures under which employees and other personnel who are sick shall not return to work without compliance with medically prescribed quarantine procedures; and to the extent they have symptoms of Covid-19 at work are sent home;

9) Posting signs at all entrance points that a) inform customers that the business is operating on an appointment only basis with instructions for making appointments; and b) requesting that customers who have symptoms of Covid-19 not enter the premises; and

10) Establishing such other procedures that the business deems necessary to limit the spread of the virus that causes Covid-19. The terms of this Order will take effect two business days after its issuance in order to allow for notice by Commonwealth public safety officials to licensees, licensing authorities, state and local law enforcement officials, and to members of the public.
Click to expand...

This is only the proposal from the defendants. We still get our day in court tomorrow.
 
dw617 said:
How does a range open at "40% capacity?" ??
Click to expand...

I will do my part and shoot 60% slower with even slower reloads ;-)

Whatever I need to do to help comply,,,,

<Edit>....come to think of it, I haven't shot in so long this is probably not too far from the truth ;-)

Oh, and I promise to miss badly at least once per mag...
 
Last edited:
Atlantis said:
This is only the proposal from the defendants. We still get our day in court tomorrow.
Click to expand...


Yes, I know. Putting it here for posterity.

The reality is this proposal does nothing to remedy the issues the judge brought up in the first place.

The same core question remains:

Why does exercising a constitutionally protected right require a greater compliance burden on the part of the defendants relative to other activities which are not guaranteed rights at all?
 
Bladerunner said:
Yes, I know. Putting it here for posterity.

The reality is this proposal does nothing to remedy the issues the judge brought up in the first place.

The same core question remains:

Why does exercising a constitutionally protected right require a greater compliance burden on the part of the defendants relative to other activities which are not guaranteed rights at all?
Click to expand...

Exactly, it’s VERY telling that they are still proposing a higher and more restrictive standard for gun stores. Like as if they are calling the Judges bluff. They are telegraphing in bold font that this is a politics thing and that guns are not welcome in the commonwealth. There is no other justification for why the proposed order is stricter than for liquor stores or Home Depot etc
 
The elegance of this proposed order is a thing of beauty:

It is hereby ORDERED: Gun dealers licensed pursuant to G.L. c. 140 § 122, shooting ranges, and ammunition dealers licensed pursuant to G.L. c. 140, § 122B, are to be considered “essential services” under the March 23, 2020 “COVID-19 Order No. 13,” subsequent extensions of that order, and any subsequent orders that may be issued pertaining to the declaration of the State of Emergency declared by the Governor on March 10, 2020, and shall be subject to no regulations unless such regulations are generally applicable to all retail sellers of commodities;

Licensed shooting ranges shall follow all social distancing recommendations for outdoor activities. Case 1:20-cv-10701-DPW Document 80 Filed 05/06/20 Page 1 of 2

The terms of this Order will take effect 24 hours after its issuance in order to allow for notice by Commonwealth public safety officials to licensees, licensing authorities, state and local law enforcement officials, and to members of the public.
 
Drix said:
Sure there is! Liquor lobby is stronger in MA than the gun lobby!
Click to expand...

Not quite as simple as that... How many people in the state are upset over closing gun shops and ranges relative to the number of people who support the closings? Now, close the liquor stores and you might have city blocks burning in places like Springfield, Lawrence, Fall River, and New Bedford.
 
NewGuyRay said:
Not quite as simple as that... How many people in the state are upset over closing gun shops and ranges relative to the number of people who support the closings? Now, close the liquor stores and you might have city blocks burning in places like Springfield, Lawrence, Fall River, and New Bedford.
Click to expand...
...and Pittsfield. I live in Pittsfield
 
Bladerunner said:
Yes, I know. Putting it here for posterity.

The reality is this proposal does nothing to remedy the issues the judge brought up in the first place.

The same core question remains:

Why does exercising a constitutionally protected right require a greater compliance burden on the part of the defendants relative to other activities which are not guaranteed rights at all?
Click to expand...

I agree- this doesnt address the issues that the judge brought up. It almost seems like they are caving a little to make this "moot" like the NYC case.

I think the judge, based on what we've seen, will see through it and call them out on it.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
Derek can be forced to turn over his IP logs and/or payment info for green members, and ANY reference that can be misconstrued as a threat can and quite possibly will be used against the poster via suitability or criminal charges. Furthermore, out of context quoting will not exactly help our side.

Be VEWY CAWFULL what kind of joking comments you make (for starters, I would suggest the OP delete #xxx - edited, the post to which I refer has been deleted by the original poster).
Click to expand...
I was excoriated by others on this site for urging restraint in what we post...wait for it...
 
Drix said:
Sure there is! Liquor lobby is stronger in MA than the gun lobby!
Click to expand...
So according to Maura Baker, if at the packie; You must make an appt prior to arrival telling us what brand of beer you are buying and not look at any other beer while you are here? Yesterday, we went to Home Depot and we didn't have an appt. The parking lot was pretty full. We waited in the spaced out line and then green lighted to go in. We were free to look around before we decided to buy some mulch. We did not register the mulch though when we got home. Hope that's ok. OMG.
 
zork51 said:
So, at the packie; no looking at brands of beer. You must make an appt prior to arrival telling us what brand of beer you are buying and not look at any other beer. We went to Home Depot the other day and we didn't have an appt. We were free to look around before we decided to buy some mulch. We did not register the mulch though when we got home. Hope that's ok. OMG.
Click to expand...
don't forget only 4 transactions an hour
 

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