Can you keep a gun in another state without a license in your home state?

[Len-2A Training]

a little off topic, but if a MA resident buys a rifle in another state and leaves it there....say for hunting out west....if you ever plan on returning that gun to MA, you really need to have filled out the MA form a few days after the purchase.

Huh?

Uh, No!

You do NOT need to register it until AFTER it crosses the DMZ into Commiechusetts for the first time. Then it is "registration" with NO info on the gun source, done within 7 days of entering Commiechusetts.

 

[kalash]

Digging this up because I thought of something...

If the ATF bases residency on the INTENT to reside, what stops me (a Mass resident) from walking into a store in NH, declaring that I intend to move to NH, and buying a Glock? I've never lived or owned property in NH. Or is this precisely why most FFLs don't want to sell in such cases?

 

[Talon3]

I know I have pointed this out before, but here it is again. The gold standard of identification is a US Passport or Passport card.
These do not list an address on them. Present 1 as ID along with said tax, lease, other document to show indefinite residency to meet 27 CFR 478.11

 

[Talon3]

Digging this up because I thought of something...

If the ATF bases residency on the INTENT to reside, what stops me (a Mass resident) from walking into a store in NH, declaring that I intend to move to NH, and buying a Glock? I've never lived or owned property in NH. Or is this precisely why most FFLs don't want to sell in such cases?

You need to actually have the place where you are intended on and residing in: example property tax docs, car registration, part time resident state tax return, etc.

 

[kalash]

You need to actually have the place where you are intended on and residing in: example property tax docs, car registration, part time resident state tax return, etc.

This is incorrect. Per ATF ruling 2010-6:

Ownership of a home or land within a given State is not sufficient, by itself, to establish a State of residence. However, ownership of a home or land within a particular State is not required to establish presence and intent to make a home in that State.

 

[drgrant]

Digging this up because I thought of something...

If the ATF bases residency on the INTENT to reside, what stops me (a Mass resident) from walking into a store in NH, declaring that I intend to move to NH, and buying a Glock? I've never lived or owned property in NH. Or is this precisely why most FFLs don't want to sell in such cases?

IIRC Feds have a list of qualifying documents that can be used to assert a residency claim, you either have them or you don't, that's the entire pin on which everything rotates on.

Intent is nebulous garbage and never gets tested in reality, it's like a state of mind, not much different than george costanza's point here...





-Mike

 

[Kevin_NH]

If the ATF bases residency on the INTENT to reside, what stops me (a Mass resident) from walking into a store in NH, declaring that I intend to move to NH, and buying a Glock? I've never lived or owned property in NH. Or is this precisely why most FFLs don't want to sell in such cases?

Yes, FFLs tend to be overly-cautious about transfers relying on the less common "substantiating documentation"

IIRC Feds have a list of qualifying documents that can be used to assert a residency claim, you either have them or you don't, that's the entire pin on which everything rotates on.

See 27 CFR 178.124(c). In New Hampshire, vehicle registration is the most commonly accepted "valid, government-issued document showing the transferee's current residence address".

Then there was the time the clerk at Riley's insisted he needed to write my street address on the back of my NH driver's license with a Sharpie before he could sell me a pistol (I took my business elsewhere).

 

[mothybee]

Go to any gun show, ask for one of those loophole guns. wink, wink..... Right Maura?

 

[kalash]

IIRC Feds have a list of qualifying documents that can be used to assert a residency claim, you either have them or you don't, that's the entire pin on which everything rotates on.

Intent is nebulous garbage and never gets tested in reality, it's like a state of mind, not much different than george costanza's point here...

-Mike

According to the ATF intent is the o ly thing that matters. Not actual residency, not any sort of paperwork, but intent to reside at an unspecified time.

Go to any gun show, ask for one of those loophole guns. wink, wink..... Right Maura?

Ya got me, I'm a mole for Healey

 

[drgrant]

According to the ATF intent is the o ly thing that matters. Not actual residency, not any sort of paperwork, but intent to reside at an unspecified time.

Dig deeper, there's a list of acceptable docs. This is the entire reason of Steven? Dearth v Holder, he was stuck because he did not have any indicia of residency. These docs "demonstrate intent".

-Mike

 

[Glockster30]

I thought we beat this to death in other threads. ATF ruling 2010-6 appears to apply to a US citizen who maintains a residence in both a foreign country and the US:

ATF Rul. 2010-6 The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has received inquiries seeking clarification as to whether, under Federal law, United States citizens who maintain residences in both a foreign country and a particular State may purchase firearms while in the State.

ATF ruling 2010-6 then refers to 27 CFR 478.11, which discusses living in one state and having a residence in another state with 4 criteria (among other things):

State of residence.

The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b). The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

Example 1.
A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.
Example 2.
A maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.
Example 3.
A, an alien, travels to the United States on a three-week vacation to State X. A does not have a state of residence in State X because A does not have the intention of making a home in State X while on vacation. This is true regardless of the length of the vacation.
Example 4.
A, an alien, travels to the United States to work for three years in State X. A rents a home in State X, moves his personal possessions into the home, and his family resides with him in the home. A intends to reside in State X during the 3-year period of his employment. A is a resident of State X.

In other threads, it was also mentioned that you need to meet the criteria on Form 4377 under Question #2 on p.4 that meets the same criteria in Example 2. above:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4...n-record-over-counter-atf-form-53009/download

 

[Racenet]

Build the wall!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[namedpipes]

Ya got me, I'm a mole for Healey

We've know THAT for ages

 

[308rifleman]

Someone I know lives in NYC and wouldn't be able to get a license even if he applied. However, he has a vacation home in PA and wants to keep a gun there. What are his options?

He can't get a handgun in PA and any long gun would have to be NY-legal, right? Other than that he can walk into a store in PA and buy a long gun, right? PA doesn't require a license to possess firearms.

First of all, what type of gun is he looking for? In NYC, shotgun/rifle permits are not that difficult to obtain. Magazine capacity is restricted to 5 rounds for rifles and shotguns. The rifles and shotguns have to be registered but there is no charge and you can mail the registration form. Go CMRRR just to be safe if you do mail it. He could purchase a Ruger Ranch .223 and a Remington 870, for example, and keep them in NYC. Again, watch that mag capacity! If, on the other hand, he absolutely cannot obtain such a license, he may be PP. If so, he would not be able to own a firearm in PA as well.

 

[kalash]

Alright, so all of this has been officially resolved. The short background (link) is that my FIL won a Henry in a raffle in PA but the FFL wouldn't transfer him the gun because he lives in NYC (but the family has property in PA). I maintain that they could've legally given it to him but whatever. Anyways, I just went and picked it up with him so now I have a .357 Big Boy, which I'm really pumped about! Might keep it in PA to keep it out of the PRM but we'll see - already picked up a hard-sided case and padlock for it so my BIL stops freaking out about a gun in the house

 

[Boston4567]

This topic is a federal/national thing though, not MA garbage law thing. MA and Healey "cannot make dual residency firearm ownership illegal" no matter how much they grimace, and flap their arms, and whine, snort and blare.

But is this really true?

I've posited in threads before, regarding ERPO, that if you have property in NH and keep guns there, and you get MA ERPO'd, MA can't make you surrender those guns. Many (including well-respected posters like Len, IIRC) told me that wasn't true, and even if NH wouldn't do anything due to a lack of ERPO reciprocity, I'd still be opening myself up to MA prosecution if I didn't disclose and surrender all firearms, even those in another state.

So the question is, if you're an MA resident, are you effectively giving MA enough "personal jurisdiction" that they can criminalize your firearms ownership across state lines? And is there a difference if the criminalization is particularized based on a court order?

There are obviously some shades of gray given the personalized nature of ERPOs. But one could also imagine a scenario where MA passes a full retard law that bans an entire class of residents from firearms ownership due to some transgression (say, anyone with a moving violation in the last decade).

 

[Len-2A Training]

Keep in mind the following:

- MA (separately) criminalizes failure to tell police immediately where any/all guns are (out of state locations).
- C. 209A ROs are actually a version of Fed Law (Lautenberg Act) that requires all firearms kept anywhere to be confiscated. So a MA PD notifying a NH PD about the RO means that the NH PD MUST confiscate the guns (but they will give them back if RO is vacated, something that MA PDs regularly fail to do).
- Any other reason for suspension/revocation of a MA LTC does NOT require a NH PD to confiscate guns (unless person is a genuine Federal PP). So NH PD may say "thanks for the info" to the MA PD and then do nothing. [I won't say that they will always do nothing, but in most cases of a MA suspension/revocation, the NH PD may not be obligated to do anything.]

 

[allen-1]

Alright, so all of this has been officially resolved. The short background (link) is that my FIL won a Henry in a raffle in PA but the FFL wouldn't transfer him the gun because he lives in NYC (but the family has property in PA). I maintain that they could've legally given it to him but whatever. Anyways, I just went and picked it up with him so now I have a .357 Big Boy, which I'm really pumped about! Might keep it in PA to keep it out of the PRM but we'll see - already picked up a hard-sided case and padlock for it so my BIL stops freaking out about a gun in the house

How about if you put your BIL in the hard-sided case and padlock it, then put the Henry in the safe or hang it on the wall?

 

[ThePreBanMan]

I thought the dude lost all his guns in a boating accident on a PA lake... just saying. OR was it Deleware bay???

 

[Boston4567]

Keep in mind the following:

- MA (separately) criminalizes failure to tell police immediately where any/all guns are (out of state locations).
- C. 209A ROs are actually a version of Fed Law (Lautenberg Act) that requires all firearms kept anywhere to be confiscated. So a MA PD notifying a NH PD about the RO means that the NH PD MUST confiscate the guns (but they will give them back if RO is vacated, something that MA PDs regularly fail to do).
- Any other reason for suspension/revocation of a MA LTC does NOT require a NH PD to confiscate guns (unless person is a genuine Federal PP). So NH PD may say "thanks for the info" to the MA PD and then do nothing. [I won't say that they will always do nothing, but in most cases of a MA suspension/revocation, the NH PD may not be obligated to do anything.]

Got it. But MA ERPO law also requires, IIRC, the surrender of all guns, not just the disclosure of their existence.

So the real question is, if I lived in Methuen and kept all my guns in a storage unit just over the border in Salem, NH, or moved them all there because I had an inkling someone was going to ERPO me, what happens? The police come with the ERPO, and I chuckle at them and tell them all my guns are just 5 minutes away, just over the border, and they can't touch them? Then if the Salem NH police refuse to touch the issue, that's the end of it it?

Something tells me they would try to prosecute me in that scenario, basically saying it was a crime for me not to go get my guns from the storage unit and surrender them. And I think the law allows that.

That's obviously an edge case, but you could apply the principle to lots of scenarios. Point is, I think the law requires the immediate surrender of all firearms owned by the person, regardless of location.

 

[namedpipes]

Keep in mind the following:

- MA (separately) criminalizes failure to tell police immediately where any/all guns are (out of state locations).
- C. 209A ROs are actually a version of Fed Law (Lautenberg Act) that requires all firearms kept anywhere to be confiscated. So a MA PD notifying a NH PD about the RO means that the NH PD MUST confiscate the guns (but they will give them back if RO is vacated, something that MA PDs regularly fail to do).
- Any other reason for suspension/revocation of a MA LTC does NOT require a NH PD to confiscate guns (unless person is a genuine Federal PP). So NH PD may say "thanks for the info" to the MA PD and then do nothing. [I won't say that they will always do nothing, but in most cases of a MA suspension/revocation, the NH PD may not be obligated to do anything.]

So in MA if served with 209A you must tell and the OOS police must seize.

Any other type of RO in MA, you must tell(?) and the OOS police might or might not seize.

Is that correct?

You can (I believe) redirect your firearms to an FFL for safekeeping in any of these scenarios, correct? "Must" the police turn over the firearms when the FFL arrives at the station with authorization or can they send them to the black hole "bonded warehouse" despite the request/demand from the firearm owner and FFL?

 

[Len-2A Training]

ERPO is NOT Federal Law (yet), so no other state's PDs are obligated to enforce MA law. Once you are divested of your LTC, any handling of guns in MA would be a crime, so no you don't get to go to NH and bring them back to hand off to the PD.

PDs can do as they please. Some won't honor letters to give the guns to an FFL or other licensed person (for other than 209A) and instead will ship to bonded thefthouse.

 

[Boston4567]

ERPO is NOT Federal Law (yet), so no other state's PDs are obligated to enforce MA law. Once you are divested of your LTC, any handling of guns in MA would be a crime, so no you don't get to go to NH and bring them back to hand off to the PD.

But aren't there some gray areas here? For example, your LTC is revoked, you hand over your license and you go into your house and open up the safe and bring the cased guns out to the police. The law doesn't contain a specific exemption for you to handle your guns after revocation, but the state would argue it's implied.

I think the state would argue in order to comply with the law, you need to immediately go and retrieve your guns wherever they are and surrender them. I also think that's the most reasonable reading of the statute, unconstitutional as it may be.

 

[42!]

So in MA if served with 209A you must tell and the OOS police must seize.

Any other type of RO in MA, you must tell(?) and the OOS police might or might not seize.

Is that correct?

A 208 RO in MA does not require the surrender or notification of firearms, it doesn't even interfere with the renewal of an LTC.

 

[Len-2A Training]

But aren't there some gray areas here? For example, your LTC is revoked, you hand over your license and you go into your house and open up the safe and bring the cased guns out to the police. The law doesn't contain a specific exemption for you to handle your guns after revocation, but the state would argue it's implied.

I think the state would argue in order to comply with the law, you need to immediately go and retrieve your guns wherever they are and surrender them. I also think that's the most reasonable reading of the statute, unconstitutional as it may be.

Court case currently but I'd guess that in most cases the PD enters (without a warrant) and does the clean-out "for you". So you don't have to touch them.