Can you keep a gun in another state without a license in your home state?

[kalash]

Someone I know lives in NYC and wouldn't be able to get a license even if he applied. However, he has a vacation home in PA and wants to keep a gun there. What are his options?

He can't get a handgun in PA and any long gun would have to be NY-legal, right? Other than that he can walk into a store in PA and buy a long gun, right? PA doesn't require a license to possess firearms.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Read the info on dual residency. Feds say he's a resident of both states and can buy in PA. One needs to read PA law and if agreeable then find a willing FFL in PA.

 

[boiler_eng]

Someone I know lives in NYC and wouldn't be able to get a license even if he applied. However, he has a vacation home in PA and wants to keep a gun there. What are his options?

He can't get a handgun in PA and any long gun would have to be NY-legal, right? Other than that he can walk into a store in PA and buy a long gun, right? PA doesn't require a license to possess firearms.

If he has a part time residence in PA does that make him a part time resident of the state? I would think that would have more bearing as opposed to whether or not he has a license in the state his other (main) residence is located in.

 

[Reptile]

Related question:

If a person does not have a license in any state- can they keep a gun in PA, NH, or VT?

Like in storage or a relatives home?

 

[kalash]

I thought residency was tied to where you spend the majority of your time? How does dual residency work? He does own the property in PA.

 

[92G]

i thought FFL in selling state has to be sure it's legal for buyer to possess in their state of residence.

 

[whacko]

Not commenting on any laws or what not.....but if the gun is kept on his property on pa why would pa care as they don't require a license. Or is the op more looking for info on purchase on pa?

Best bet I'd say is call around to ffls in PA and just ask if they are able to sell to him.

 

[LuvDog]

Lens post answers it... no need to go into specific details on the forum, since we know that NES is trolled to find new ways to screw us.

 

[kalash]

Not commenting on any laws or what not.....but if the gun is kept on his property on pa why would pa care as they don't require a license. Or is the op more looking for info on purchase on pa?

I'm thinking from a federal law perspective. Is the FFL required to establish the buyer's state of residence? I'm thinking yes, since they have to make sure that the gun being sold is legal in the buyer's state. So if they see NY and the gun is legal in NY, do they also have to check for the buyer's NY license or no?

Lens post answers it... no need to go into specific details on the forum, since we know that NES is trolled to find new ways to screw us.

Absolutely nothing illegal or even shady being discussed here. If Maura wants to send this thread to Eric Schneiderman and he wants to figure out which one NYC's 8.5mil residents is trying to find a LEGAL way of doing something, they can go right ahead.

 

[ToddDubya]

IIRC you can buy a long gun in NY state with a driver's license. Obviously you'd need to fill out a 4473, but that's no different from buying in PA. No need to buy in PA unless he doesn't have any good shops between NYC and his place in PA.

https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-gun-laws/new-york/

 

[kalash]

IIRC you can buy a long gun in NY state with a driver's license. Obviously you'd need to fill out a 4473, but that's no different from buying in PA. No need to buy in PA unless he doesn't have any good shops between NYC and his place in PA.

https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-gun-laws/new-york/

No permit is required for the purchase of a rifle or shotgun (except in New York City).

There's the rub. I suppose it would be perfectly legal for him to buy from a private seller in PA - PA doesn't require a license for that and he would never possess it in NY so I don't see any broken laws there.

 

[Ultrarunner]

In most of America "license" means nothing. Since according to the Feds and the state of PA he is a resident of PA, he brings his DL to PA dealer with a copy of a tax bill in his name (or vehicle registration, etc) if he has a NY DL then buys whatever he wants, long gun, handgun, or other. He can keep it in PA or bring it wherever he's legally allowed to bring it. New York doesn't matter in this situation.

 

[ToddDubya]

There's the rub. I suppose it would be perfectly legal for him to buy from a private seller in PA - PA doesn't require a license for that and he would never possess it in NY so I don't see any broken laws there.

IIRC you have to buy from an FFL outside of your home state. IANAL, so please research any information for yourself.

Buying in another state: https://www.atf.gov/questions-and-a...tate-and-owns-property-another-state-purchase

Residency Rules: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/what-constitutes-residency-state

Transferring FTF to someone a resident of another state: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/whom-may-unlicensed-person-transfer-firearms-under-gca

Keep in mind that "licensed" means FFL to the ATF.

 

[Len-2A Training]

IIRC you can buy a long gun in NY state with a driver's license. Obviously you'd need to fill out a 4473, but that's no different from buying in PA. No need to buy in PA unless he doesn't have any good shops between NYC and his place in PA.

https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-gun-laws/new-york/

IIRC NYC is different and does require a license for long guns. Not my expertise but I do recall reading that somewhere.

There's the rub. I suppose it would be perfectly legal for him to buy from a private seller in PA - PA doesn't require a license for that and he would never possess it in NY so I don't see any broken laws there.

4473 answers the question about how to fill out the form for dual residents when buying from a FFL. Private seller is a lot more shaky and I know that I wouldn't sell (as an individual) to someone with a NY DL in the exact same circumstances.

In most of America "license" means nothing. Since according to the Feds and the state of PA he is a resident of PA, he brings his DL to PA dealer with a copy of a tax bill in his name (or vehicle registration, etc) if he has a NY DL then buys whatever he wants, long gun, handgun, or other. He can keep it in PA or bring it wherever he's legally allowed to bring it. New York doesn't matter in this situation.

If he does it right and FFL will deal he's OK. Some FFLs won't deal, so always ask first.

 

[Kevin_NH]

It's a shame that the few states which require a license to possess a firearm have managed to convince their residents that this state of affairs is normal.

Related question: If a person does not have a license in any state- can they keep a gun in PA, NH, or VT?
Like in storage or a relatives home?

As far as "keep" or "possess", the Feds do not care, nor do PA/NH/VT. No restrictions on firearms possession by non-"prohibited person" adults. Person could be a non-resident of the state or a non-resident of the USA and be legal to possess. Assuming they're a true dual-resident with residency in New Hampshire or Vermont, could purchase a handgun or other firearm in either of those states with minimal hassle -- Pennsylvania does have some extra hoops to jump through to purchase a handgun, covering both private sale or dealer sale.

 

[Reptile]

It's a shame that the few states which require a license to possess a firearm have managed to convince their residents that this state of affairs is normal.

As far as "keep" or "possess", the Feds do not care, nor do PA/NH/VT. No restrictions on firearms possession by non-"prohibited person" adults. Person could be a non-resident of the state or a non-resident of the USA and be legal to possess. Assuming they're a true dual-resident with residency in New Hampshire or Vermont, could purchase a handgun or other firearm in either of those states with minimal hassle -- Pennsylvania does have some extra hoops to jump through to purchase a handgun, covering both private sale or dealer sale.

So if a mass resident loses their LTC, they can store guns in one of those states? If the guns can be transported before the revocation?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[drgrant]

Someone I know lives in NYC and wouldn't be able to get a license even if he applied. However, he has a vacation home in PA and wants to keep a gun there. What are his options?

Yes he can, he just needs to claim PA residency at some point, and he can buy whatever firearm he wants. Assertion of a residency claim from BATFE perspective is nebulous, if he says he is a resident he is a resident, of course PA law might require some kind of ID or other precursors for buying handguns, but that's about it.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

So if a mass resident loses their LTC, they can store guns in one of those states? If the guns can be transported before the revocation?

Well yes, or moved by another LTC holder, etc. Assuming that person is not otherwise federally prohibited. So for example, guy has an LTC, faces a suitability renewal denial prospect (let's say the chief saw him pick his nose or something) if he moves his shit out before his old LTC expires, he's fine, or even after expiration, if someone else moves it out.

-Mike

 

[Glockster30]

I thought residency was tied to where you spend the majority of your time? How does dual residency work? He does own the property in PA.

That might be true according to state laws, but unless it has changed recently, ATF doesn't have a timeline for residency, as noted below:

State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b). The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

Example 1.
A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

Example 2.

A maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

Example 2 is what your friend would fall into as you described his 2 residencies in your OP.


https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.11

 

[drgrant]

Lens post answers it... no need to go into specific details on the forum, since we know that NES is trolled to find new ways to screw us.

There's absolutely nothing illegal about what is being described here. There's also absolutely no way that shitbag healy can do anything about it either, given that a residency swap, when done correctly*, is completely impenetrable by the garbage states. Say hypothetically if I am a dual resident, primary in MA, and I have a condo in NH, and I produce the paperwork the NH FFL requires to their satisfaction (to satisfy BATFE requirements) there is not a single thing shitbag healy can do about it.

*I bold this because frankly, most people "think too much" about this and make it more complicated than it actually is. Basically all someone has to do is find out what the remote needs, and satisfy that need for documentation. Obviously some are stricter than others. Or if some guy is stupid enough to tell the remote their life story and a bunch of massachusetts sob stories/mass whining they're going to block the sale. "It doesn't take rocket appliances..."

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

I thought residency was tied to where you spend the majority of your time? How does dual residency work? He does own the property in PA.

"No, it's not".

According to BATFE it's literally based on intent.

"I intend to reside in State X for an indeterminate amount of time and I have documentation Y to act as an indicator of this" = literally all BATFE cares about.

-Mike

 

[kalash]

"No, it's not".

According to BATFE it's literally based on intent.

"I intend to reside in State X for an indeterminate amount of time and I have documentation Y to act as an indicator of this" = literally all BATFE cares about.

-Mike

Interesting... Source?

 

[drgrant]

i thought FFL in selling state has to be sure it's legal for buyer to possess in their state of residence.

If you effectively reside in two different states the "state of residency legality test" is effectively contingent upon whatever residency you are declaring at that particular time. There's no stricture on this from a BATFE pov, no windows of time, etc. One week you could be an MA resident. For the next indeterminate number of days "you can be an NH resident because you got a condo there" etc. It's literally that
nebulous.

Now for voting, taxes, and all that shit- the rules are different, but that is an entirely different ball of wax vis a vis what BATFE considers for
residency qualifiers. The BATFE standard is a lot easier to understand than any of that crap is. Taxation and Voting in various states, to establish residency qualifer for that stuff actually does describe windows of time, etc, and so on.

-Mike

 

[Rob Boudrie]

any long gun would have to be NY-legal, right?

Right, if he is buying the long gun as a NY resident without PA residency.

Wrong, if he is buying the long gun as a part time resident of PA.

 

[Glockster30]

Interesting... Source?

Did you read "Example 2." in post #19?

 

[drgrant]

Interesting... Source?

27 CFR 478.11

State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b). The following are examples that illustrate this definition:
Example 1.
A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

Example 2.
A maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

Example 3.
A, an alien, travels to the United States on a three-week vacation to State X. A does not have a state of residence in State X because A does not have the intention of making a home in State X while on vacation. This is true regardless of the length of the vacation.

Example 4.
A, an alien, travels to the United States to work for three years in State X. A rents a home in State X, moves his personal possessions into the home, and his family resides with him in the home. A intends to reside in State X during the 3-year period of his employment. A is a resident of State X.

Translation: According to BATFE- If you "intend to live in a given state" you are a resident. Example 2 is the most
common scenario and fits the pattern established by most that wield dual residency, but it's worth noting that even property ownership isn't an absolute requirement. It just gets cited frequently because it is frequently the source of required documents for things like establishing a residency claim. It is worth noting that some states will issue State Identification cards separate from a drivers license, etc... which can also help establish a residency claim. (although some of this might have gotten worse since the whole RealID BS came out, but facilities probably still exist to do this. )

-Mike

 

[amm5061]

If you effectively reside in two different states the "state of residency legality test" is effectively contingent upon whatever residency you are declaring at that particular time. There's no stricture on this from a BATFE pov, no windows of time, etc. One week you could be an MA resident. For the next indeterminate number of days "you can be an NH resident because you got a condo there" etc. It's literally that
nebulous.

Now for voting, taxes, and all that shit- the rules are different, but that is an entirely different ball of wax vis a vis what BATFE considers for
residency qualifiers. The BATFE standard is a lot easier to understand than any of that crap is. Taxation and Voting in various states, to establish residency qualifer for that stuff actually does describe windows of time, etc, and so on.

-Mike

Yup. PA literally gives no ****s, so if your friend has a residency in PA a tax bill should suffice to prove residency so long as the FFL will deal. If you're buying a long gun the FFL may not even care at all so long as it's not black and extra killy.

Handguns and EBRs may prove more troublesome, but you're sure to find an FFL out there who won't care so long as the address on the 4473 is in PA. Could you get a PA ID card using the PA address and use that when purchasing? You can't hold multiple DLs, but there's nothing I can find that says you can't get an ID card from the second state.

 

[LuvDog]

I agree that the residency part is not illegal and should be a non issue. It is clearly defined on the Federal Form.

But let's also realize that there is nothing illegal about ARs and just describing differences has caused them to be blacklisted. There is also nothing wrong with Glocks and they're on the EOPS list, but for some reason the super secret list keeps them out of stores.

Our "leaders" don't care about the laws, the Constitution, or whats right, but they'll use things like this in the media to make it look bad. See how easy it is to get guns from out of state, blah blah blah.

 

[kalash]

Awesome, thanks everyone! The individual in question is getting up there in age so I wasn't going to recommend a 12ga - I was thinking SKS or Mini 14 if it had to be NY-compliant but since it doesn't I might recommend an AR.

 

[drgrant]

I agree that the residency part is not illegal and should be a non issue. It is clearly defined on the Federal Form.

But let's also realize that there is nothing illegal about ARs and just describing differences has caused them to be blacklisted. There is also nothing wrong with Glocks and they're on the EOPS list, but for some reason the super secret list keeps them out of stores.

Our "leaders" don't care about the laws, the Constitution, or whats right, but they'll use things like this in the media to make it look bad. See how easy it is to get guns from our of state, blah blah blah.

This topic is a federal/national thing though, not MA garbage law thing. MA and Healey "cannot make dual residency firearm ownership illegal" no matter how much they grimace, and flap their arms, and whine, snort and blare.

Also- despite BATFE being flexible it's really NOT "easy", but it's not "hard" or "impossible" either. Theres a bunch of this law that needs to be changed to make things less absurd, actually. There's no logical reason why RKBA should be contingent on residency at all, but that's a whole other ballgame. There might even be some federal court cases in the mill on this issue. (I know there was one claim, where there was a guy who was a US citizen, but lived in Canada, who was trying to legally buy a handgun in the US to keep here, but did not assert a US residency claim so could not buy a handgun) I dunno what happened with his case. It may have been knocked down but he may have appealed, etc. The blockade at that point is fundamentally unconstitutional- the 2nd amendment doesn't ask for a "State of residency" to exercise ones RTKBA.

Bear in mind that while talking about this- the citizens of like 45 something states, as long as they have clean, generally non felon, or non PP records, are 18+ or 21+ (for handguns, PGO shotguns, lowers, etc) and have a drivers license (or some other suitable state identification document or other satisfying document or permit) can walk into a gun store and buy a handgun, rifle, or shotgun if they pass the background check. That's not exactly some kind of a hidden secret, particularly anywhere outside of the garbage states.

-Mike