Brandishing a Firearm with LTC

[MisterHappy]

Close, but not quite....on the right track, though!

 

[theGringo]

"You dieth, GI," screamed the faggot. [note - from memory ]

Rep points to whoever gives me the source of the above quotes ( besides Gringo - obviously, he knows it)

I can never hear the word "brandishing" and not think ... faggot.

 

[GSG]

Curb your ego and drive away.

+1

I think the OP was asking (at least the way I read it) was if by SHOWING, another words, lift your shirt so the dumbass can SEE that you are armed. Not take it out and wave it around.

Or is that the same thing?

There was an LTC holder in Mass. brought up on charges for that.

Don't be so quick to kill a man just because he has met the minimus critera to do so.

+1

i recall a thread a while back where a guy made a copy of his LTC (or copies) and passed it to a co-worker... maybe his HR manager...

he got canned and charged with something... one the NES Ninja Forum will be along with a link or links to the OP or News Story

Someone else posted the newstory, here's the NES thread.

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...reme-court-upheld-CCW-denial-in-New-Hampshire

After reading through some of the posts here, I think you guys are under the misconception that if you feel you are in danger, you have no choice but to shoot.

Very good point.

Ya, well I would not say i switched...just say I was carrying openly while i was out today/tonight

Ah, the lying-you-a**-off defense. Poor choice in the world where everyone has a cellphone, and every cellphone has a video camera.

You also need to ask yourself: What are you going to do if the guy is unimpressed with the holstered gun and continues to walk up to you, unarmed, asking, "What are you going to do, tough guy? Shoot me?". Any actions he takes from that point would be looked at as self-defense on his part, all the jury would hear is that he just wanted to know who gets the parking space and you show a gun. You probably don't want to open that can of worms.

Drive away. Walk away. Run away. The only one making this a deadly force scenario is you.

Exactly. We're discussing a similar issue at the below link.

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...-biker-assaulted-at-red-light-shoots-attacker

I just applied for my LTC-A and never plan to carry for protection if I am by myslef. Pepper spray definately. Wife and kids w/me, maybe CCW.

Why?

I'd like to see Jesse Cohen respond to this...

I'd like to see Obama admit that he wasn't born in the US.

 

[Titan]

If you think one of the purposes of your carry gun is to intimidate aggressive people, you are almost certain to get yourself into a lot of trouble.

 

[M1911]

If you think one of the purposes of your carry gun is to intimidate aggressive people, you are almost certain to get yourself into a lot of trouble.

Exactly.

The purpose of carrying a gun is to protect your life and the lives of your loved ones.

 

[DickWanner]

Just to be pedantic, in MA it is "assault with a dangerous weapon." http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/265-15a.htm

Thank you for the correction

 

[drgrant]

I was not addressing the road rage scenerio presented by the OP, just the act of brandishing in self defense in general. If you are in a road rage situation, you should always drive away, period. As far as brandishing goes, if you pull a gun on a knife weilding assailant, and they immediately drop the knife when the gun comes out, you will not be in any trouble for not shooting and probably charged with murder if you do and there are witnesses. I kind of thought the thread got away from the OP's situation and was just discussing the act of brandishing.

Ok, comprehension fail on my part for not noticing the thread drift.

One fly in the ointment is that there are perils in every which direction... if you "wait"
to see what the BG is going to do, you add risk to getting stabbed, etc. Another fly is that because of OODA loops the "oh s**t this guy has a gun I'd better drop
my weapon" thought may actually take seconds to process.

Of course we can "what if" it to death. I guess this only reinforces the whole
notional of detecting threats before its too late. As you probably already
know, that pays a crapload of dividends. Threats are easier to deal with if you
can avoid them altogether or, worst case, at least know that they're coming.

Even police officers are trained that brandishing is part of the escalation of force. they call it "presentation of deadly force" and in many situations they are required to do it before shooting.

I don't think this relates to LEO altercations very well at all for a couple of reasons...

-The force dynamic between a BG and a LEO is a whole different ballgame (BG will
fear death/injury and jail with a LEO present, whereas with joe average that doesn't
identify as a LEO, things -may- be down a notch.

-LEOs generally have NO duty whatsoever to retreat. (This may vary of course, depending on whether or not they are on duty or
within jurisdiction, depending on the state or whatever rules may or may not apply to LEOs regarding this.... but the fact remains that it is generally way different than what joe average deals with. )

-LEOs are open carrying; the BG knows they are armed- yet the BG is not
deterred by this if it gets to the point where the LEO is drawing down on the BG.

The above things are game changers in terms of the way a LEO reacts to a
situation and the way joe citizen probably would.

There are so many "what if" factors that can be presented, but as a rule, brandishing is not a crime as long as you are in fear for your life.

This is generally true, although it's a hell of a lot more true once you get outside of MA. In "free america" brandishing isn't as big of a deal- the defender is often given the benefit of the doubt. When you are in anti gun s**tholes, things change... although in some of those locales, you are in a world of s**t either way, whether you shoot the guy or don't shoot. Whatever you do, being the first guy to call the police is usually pretty important, as the "complaintant" is usually given the benefit of the doubt.

I guess my gut reaction here was based off things like what happened to Linda Hamilton, etc. Pulling a gun in MA when the situation doesn't *clearly* warrant it is obviously a bad idea, but I'm preaching to the choir.

-Mike

 

[In God We Trust]

Yes the police analogy may have been a bad example for the reasons you listed. At the end of the day, like you said, anything can happen in MA. There are too many variables that are outside of your control to predict the outcome. Mainly the way responding police are going to act and what witnesses are going to remember. Quick story:

Back in the early 90's I watched a drunk guy cussing some guy out on a busy street in the middle of the day. The drunk kept advancing on him and the guy was backing up with his hands up trying to diffuse the situation. The drunk grabs the guy (who was smaller than he was) and the poor guy pushes him away. The drunk stumbles and puts his arm through the window of a building cutting himself badly from the look of it where I was standing. Now the drunk is no longer being aggressive and the guy hands him his Tshirt to wrap his arm. Cops and an ambulance show up, witnesses tell police what happened, but drunk guy tells a different story. Victim gets arrested and dragged to jail. Turns out the drunk was an off duty LEO. Some of the cops on here might no the guy.

Moral of the story is that anything could happen no matter how "right" you are. I hope none of us ever have to defend ourselves from violence.

 

[HooVooLoo]

Yes the police analogy may have been a bad example for the reasons you listed. At the end of the day, like you said, anything can happen in MA. There are too many variables that are outside of your control to predict the outcome. Mainly the way responding police are going to act and what witnesses are going to remember. Quick story:

Back in the early 90's I watched a drunk guy cussing some guy out on a busy street in the middle of the day. The drunk kept advancing on him and the guy was backing up with his hands up trying to diffuse the situation. The drunk grabs the guy (who was smaller than he was) and the poor guy pushes him away. The drunk stumbles and puts his arm through the window of a building cutting himself badly from the look of it where I was standing. Now the drunk is no longer being aggressive and the guy hands him his Tshirt to wrap his arm. Cops and an ambulance show up, witnesses tell police what happened, but drunk guy tells a different story. Victim gets arrested and dragged to jail. Turns out the drunk was an off duty LEO. Some of the cops on here might no the guy.

Moral of the story is that anything could happen no matter how "right" you are. I hope none of us ever have to defend ourselves from violence.

Well, the responding POs in this story are corrupt and biased, and have no right to have their jobs, much less the ability to carry firearms.

After all, YOU witnessed it and if your version is true then the innocent was prosecuted. Did you offer YOUR testimony?

 

[Mr. Pink]

only a judge can decide what will happen to you but I suspect you'd go before him before long.

 

[In God We Trust]

Well, the responding POs in this story are corrupt and biased, and have no right to have their jobs, much less the ability to carry firearms.

After all, YOU witnessed it and if your version is true then the innocent was prosecuted. Did you offer YOUR testimony?

Yeah, me and about 4 others. Not sure what the others said though as I walked away once I realized they were no the least bit interested in our statements. I never got called to witness anything after giving my info. I was young and still in the "scared of police" stage of life. If I could do it over, I would have waited outside the PD for the guy to walk out and given him my info. Things were different before Youtube and cell phone cameras.

 

[GSG]

-LEOs are open carrying; the BG knows they are armed- yet the BG is not
deterred by this if it gets to the point where the LEO is drawing down on the BG.

What makes you think they will be deterred by the gun of the average citizen then?

 

[salesman]

Brandish your phone, tell him you are filming everything including his plate number. Then ask him if he prefers the State or local police.

 

[spider murphy]

Brandish your phone, tell him you are filming everything including his plate number. Then ask him if he prefers the State or local police.

He'll likely just take the phone.

 

[ManBearPig]

Here are my 2 cents on the brandishing your gun issue.

First you have to have enough reason to fear that your life is in mortal danger. Some guys think, if a guy is trying to start a fight with me, pushing me around, I'm in mortal danger. Not so. If the guy is coming at you with a knife, yes that would be it. Think about it from the jury's or prosecutor's perspective the morning after.

Second, never take out your firearm unless you're going to shoot somebody with it. My gun never leaves its holster unless I'm about to be terminated. Don't take it out as a warning sign. Put up your hand, tell the guy to stop. If he doesn't, take out the mace (if you don't have mace, escape the situation and call the coppers). The gun is a last resort. If a guy in a truck stops in front of you, grabs a bat, and walks toward you, drive away.

Third, don't put yourself in a situation that you know something bad may happen. For example, don't go to a party if someone that you know who you have issues with is attending. Avoid those situations. I know for me, I used to do events in Boston into the early morning hours, but not anymore. There's a chance, albeit slim, that a situation can arise and I avoid it all together.

Finally as gun owners we have the responsibility to de-escalate every situation we're in. If the guy talks smack, I'll say, sorry, my fault, and leave. If a guy has road rage, I'll slow down and let him pass (if not, call the cops). If my ego gets bruised, so be it. No dick measuring contest is worth the trouble. The worst thing that we can do is lose our temper because our judgment is clouded and chances are regrettable actions may be committed, more ammo for the antigun lobby. Unfortunately I know some guys who are hotheads and have permits, and most guys are very sensitive about their egos. Needless to say I steer clear of those folks. Avoid, de-escalate, leave. I think of my gun as the red button that fires the nukes.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Here are my 2 cents on the brandishing your gun issue.

First you have to have enough reason to fear that your life is in mortal danger. Some guys think, if a guy is trying to start a fight with me, pushing me around, I'm in mortal danger. Not so. If the guy is coming at you with a knife, yes that would be it. Think about it from the jury's or prosecutor's perspective the morning after.

Second, never take out your firearm unless you're going to shoot somebody with it. My gun never leaves its holster unless I'm about to be terminated. Don't take it out as a warning sign. Put up your hand, tell the guy to stop. If he doesn't, take out the mace (if you don't have mace, escape the situation and call the coppers). The gun is a last resort. If a guy in a truck stops in front of you, grabs a bat, and walks toward you, drive away.

Third, don't put yourself in a situation that you know something bad may happen. For example, don't go to a party if someone that you know who you have issues with is attending. Avoid those situations. I know for me, I used to do events in Boston into the early morning hours, but not anymore. There's a chance, albeit slim, that a situation can arise and I avoid it all together.

Finally as gun owners we have the responsibility to de-escalate every situation we're in. If the guy talks smack, I'll say, sorry, my fault, and leave. If a guy has road rage, I'll slow down and let him pass (if not, call the cops). If my ego gets bruised, so be it. No dick measuring contest is worth the trouble. The worst thing that we can do is lose our temper because our judgment is clouded and chances are regrettable actions may be committed, more ammo for the antigun lobby. Unfortunately I know some guys who are hotheads and have permits, and most guys are very sensitive about their egos. Needless to say I steer clear of those folks. Avoid, de-escalate, leave. I think of my gun as the red button that fires the nukes.

Excellent advice.

Read twice carefully and heeding this advice can save any of us a world of expensive, time-consuming trouble.

 

[MisterHappy]

I have told my kids, many times, "The one who wins the fight, walks away."

The current (ages 11 & 13) implication is that you win by avoiding the conflict.

Later, with things being as they are, a more...nuanced....understanding can take hold.

 

[mass]

If I exposed my gun every time someone was a jerk on the road, I might as well just keep it in my hand and out the window the whole drive.

 

[FreeWillie]

You can't have compassion for someone able and willing to do you harm, for they don't have any compassion for you.

Ding! Ding! Ding! WE HAVE A WINNER!

 

[HooVooLoo]

A tad off-base from the main gist of the topic, but what about a scenario where you cannot simply turn around and walk/run away? (No cars in this scenario, of course.)

I think about this at times because it is difficult for me to make any fast moves with my legs. I need a cane to walk for any distance outside, and it is not at a sprightly pace.

How does the "duty to retreat" rule, unless inside your home, apply to folks with disabling conditions? (And anyone here who has met me in RL knows what I am talking about. Not many, but they are out there.) Sure, if I am trudging along and some aggressor confronts me, I could try to de-escalate with the strong forceful voice about not wanting trouble. But with this "infirmary", I feel like I would be considered "easy meat" by a predator.

Someone doesn't have to come at me with a deadly weapon to put me in fear. All they would need to do is push me over. With that in mind, at what point does a threat become "grave enough for fear of severe bodily injury or death"? What if the guy that pushed me over simply stands near me and says, "I'm going to punch you a few times in the face."

What do I do? Defend myself with a cane, because being told I will be punched in the face is not a severe enough threat to use my sidearm? Or could I brandish my weapon and tell the guy to "please not come any closer or I'll be forced to defend myself with my firearm."?

Then the perp runs away, calls the police and claims he was threatened with a gun. So now am I the one up shit's creek?

 

[In God We Trust]

I don't see anywhere in the self defense laws that an aggressor needs to be armed. People are beaten to death with empty hands every day. If you are in fear for your life and that fear is reasonable and prudent, do what you need to do. I personally am not going to risk my life on the gamble that the guy punching me in the face is going to stop once I am on the ground. Ultimately it is going to be up to the cops, DA or (god forbid) a jury of your peers.

Should a woman being raped not shoot the rapist because he probably was not going to kill her afterwards? You never know and any a**h*** that assaults people deserves to be taken out of the gene pool. I would imagine that looking down the barrel of a .45 would probably change his mind, but if it didn't I would shoot.

 

[wolf223]

Here are my 2 cents on the brandishing your gun issue.

First you have to have enough reason to fear that your life is in mortal danger. Some guys think, if a guy is trying to start a fight with me, pushing me around, I'm in mortal danger. Not so. If the guy is coming at you with a knife, yes that would be it. Think about it from the jury's or prosecutor's perspective the morning after.

Second, never take out your firearm unless you're going to shoot somebody with it. My gun never leaves its holster unless I'm about to be terminated. Don't take it out as a warning sign. Put up your hand, tell the guy to stop. If he doesn't, take out the mace (if you don't have mace, escape the situation and call the coppers). The gun is a last resort. If a guy in a truck stops in front of you, grabs a bat, and walks toward you, drive away.

Third, don't put yourself in a situation that you know something bad may happen. For example, don't go to a party if someone that you know who you have issues with is attending. Avoid those situations. I know for me, I used to do events in Boston into the early morning hours, but not anymore. There's a chance, albeit slim, that a situation can arise and I avoid it all together.

Finally as gun owners we have the responsibility to de-escalate every situation we're in. If the guy talks smack, I'll say, sorry, my fault, and leave. If a guy has road rage, I'll slow down and let him pass (if not, call the cops). If my ego gets bruised, so be it. No dick measuring contest is worth the trouble. The worst thing that we can do is lose our temper because our judgment is clouded and chances are regrettable actions may be committed, more ammo for the antigun lobby. Unfortunately I know some guys who are hotheads and have permits, and most guys are very sensitive about their egos. Needless to say I steer clear of those folks. Avoid, de-escalate, leave. I think of my gun as the red button that fires the nukes.

as Len said, excellent advice. i disagree with the bold part, unless your po po.... the "escalation of force" and "rules of engagement" are something i'm all to intimate with... if anyone is stupid enough to insist on a confrontation, they better be my size, smaller or know karate. otherwise, their @$$ is getting shot. it's that simple... i'm not down with mace or any other non-lethal option outside of my size 12 to the rectum. if that doesn't stop them, maybe a size 12 to the family jewels... i dunno..

gun stays out of sight and outta mind, i tend to wanna use my hands to knock some sense into people that act up...

 

[GSG]

I don't see anywhere in the self defense laws that an aggressor needs to be armed.

That's because there are no self defense laws in Mass., aside from the very limited "castle doctrine."

 

[Len-2A Training]

That's because there are no self defense laws in Mass., aside from the very limited "castle doctrine."

We don't have one of those either. VERY BAD choice of words as the common meaning of "castle doctrine" is nothing like the MGL.

We have an "affirmative defense" law in your home. Means you most likely are prosecuted and YOU bring up the "affirmative defense" to rebut that prosecution. VERY DIFFERENT!

 

[GSG]

We don't have one of those either. VERY BAD choice of words as the common meaning of "castle doctrine" is nothing like the MGL.

We have an "affirmative defense" law in your home. Means you most likely are prosecuted and YOU bring up the "affirmative defense" to rebut that prosecution. VERY DIFFERENT!

Good point.

 

[Trupo]

as Len said, excellent advice. i disagree with the bold part, unless your po po.... the "escalation of force" and "rules of engagement" are something i'm all to intimate with... if anyone is stupid enough to insist on a confrontation, they better be my size, smaller or know karate. otherwise, their @$$ is getting shot. it's that simple... i'm not down with mace or any other non-lethal option outside of my size 12 to the rectum. if that doesn't stop them, maybe a size 12 to the family jewels... i dunno..

gun stays out of sight and outta mind, i tend to wanna use my hands while draggin on a Kool to knock some sense into people that act up...

.

 

[center442]

This happens over and over again. I've handled several of these cases.

I'm guessing that your referring to people accused of assault by brandishing a dangerous weapon?

Jesse, what is the usual outcome? Without giving identifying particulars, of course.

 

[Stef]

Since he was banned, you might be waiting a while for an answer.

 

[GSG]

I'm guessing that your referring to people accused of assault by brandishing a dangerous weapon?

Jesse, what is the usual outcome? Without giving identifying particulars, of course.

One licensed guy in Mass. lifted his shirt to show his holstered pistol in a dangerous situation, he was charged with ADW and lost his LTC. His actions were ruled self defense in court and he got his LTC back after a court fight. There's been a few other cases in Mass. posted on NES with similar outcomes, sometimes when the display definitely wasn't justified.

 

[In God We Trust]

I hope this is not going to be viewed as thread ressurection, but I had a conversation with a guy at work yesterday and he brought up a good point in regards to brandishing.

The point was this: If brandishing is against the law, does your gun legally have to be invisible? Duh, of course not. So then what is the legal time limit between drawing and firing? The only way to establish that a gun has been "brandished" would be to have a set maximum allowable time between drawing and firing, right?

A trained SWAT officer could draw and kill me and all I would probably see would be a blur and a flash before everything went dark, but how about my 65 year old mother. To make it fair, I suggest at least 8-10 seconds be the law between drawing and firing. If the scumbag turns and starts to run away while I am taking aim or fumbling with my holster, I will just chase him down and back shoot him so that I can not be found guilty of brandishing.

This is really a dumb argument that has probably come about through the actions of dumb LEOs and Dumb DAs. Maybe even a few dumb jurors.