Brandishing a Firearm with LTC

Bob P said:
Even better - don't get out of your car and drive away. WTF is the point of getting out of your car in this situation? Curb your ego and drive away.
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This. I would only ever attempt to get out of the car if I had no other choice.

Not to mention if your car can move, it, in and of itself, can still be used as a weapon.

-Mike
 
wolf223 said:
[rofl]

i recall a thread a while back where a guy made a copy of his LTC (or copies) and passed it to a co-worker... maybe his HR manager... [laugh][rofl]

he got canned and charged with something... one the NES Ninja Forum will be along with a link or links to the OP or News Story [cheers]
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I believe this happened in Portsmouth (I think), NH. His pistol permit was revoked and the courts held it was legal to do so. He is still able to own guns and OC, but can no longer CCW.

Personally I think it was a stupid thing to do. Such an action is clearly only meant to threaten and intimidate. The guy was a moron.

Edit - Found it.

http://www.seacoastonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080604/NEWS/80604014/-1/rss01
 
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Stef said:
If you honestly feel your life is in danger, you should be sending rounds downrange, not trying to scare someone away.
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I agree that our society would probably be better served by shooting a POS that walks around attacking people, but I would rather just scare them away and not have to deal with a year long legal battle because I shot someone. Just my opinion, but if a .45 pointed at them de-escalates the situation, I would rather go that route.

After reading through some of the posts here, I think you guys are under the misconception that if you feel you are in danger, you have no choice but to shoot. Not true at all. There is nothing legally wrong with pulling a firearm, pointing it at an aggressor and letting him decide what to do next. There is no "duty to shoot". Yes, as long as you can articulate the threat to your life, you can of course shoot, but there is no crime if you choose not to. Don't give bad advice guys. I am not advocating either action, just stating facts.
 
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DickWanner said:
The fact that you "switched" to open carry (if LEO/DA find out) could still end up with you getting charged for assault with a deadly weapon. It's all about intention and in doing this your intention is to intimidate using what is considered a deadly weapon.
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Ya, well I would not say i switched...just say I was carrying openly while i was out today/tonight
 
Another thing about lifting your shirt to show your CCW could be that the guy is quicker than you. He pulls it out of your holster (while you hand is busy holding up your shirt) and beats you over the head with it.

don't give up the element of surprise. just drive away...........................
 
We have a greater responsibility to show restraint while carrying a firearm. Keep it concealed until you need it. Walk away even if you look like a Nancy, because you know you can defend yourself if you have to.
 
Great Thread, bottom line I was looking for what everyones thoughts were on Brandishing. This seems to be a hot button with most and the case scenerio was a great tool to indentify.

Rick
 
Case scenerio,

You are confronted by someone who appoaches your car because he has road rage or just being a jerk. You step out brandish (show ) your concealed weapon and ask him to move on or there could be a problem.
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You also need to ask yourself: What are you going to do if the guy is unimpressed with the holstered gun and continues to walk up to you, unarmed, asking, "What are you going to do, tough guy? Shoot me?". Any actions he takes from that point would be looked at as self-defense on his part, all the jury would hear is that he just wanted to know who gets the parking space and you show a gun. You probably don't want to open that can of worms.

Drive away. Walk away. Run away. The only one making this a deadly force scenario is you.
 
Originally Posted by OnTheRoad
Drive away. Walk away. Run away. The only one making this a deadly force scenario is you.

derek said:
+1

If you're in your car you should simply drive away.
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Five pages of anything other than this is a disgrace. EVERY ONE of us should know the above, and do it. There were some other good amplifying comments, but the question was flawed from the beginning, and every one of us should know it.
 
It's sad that even if he came at you with a knife, pit bull, chainsaw, trident, etc etc etc, and you drew, you would be treated as the criminal.

I just applied for my LTC-A and never plan to carry for protection if I am by myslef. Pepper spray definately. Wife and kids w/me, maybe CCW.
 
In God We Trust said:
I agree that our society would probably be better served by shooting a POS that walks around attacking people, but I would rather just scare them away and not have to deal with a year long legal battle because I shot someone. Just my opinion, but if a .45 pointed at them de-escalates the situation, I would rather go that route.

After reading through some of the posts here, I think you guys are under the misconception that if you feel you are in danger, you have no choice but to shoot. Not true at all. There is nothing legally wrong with pulling a firearm, pointing it at an aggressor and letting him decide what to do next. There is no "duty to shoot". Yes, as long as you can articulate the threat to your life, you can of course shoot, but there is no crime if you choose not to. Don't give bad advice guys. I am not advocating either action, just stating facts.
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Your advice is possibly bad as well, especially in the context of MA.

I can only think of a handful of situations where "drawing to brandish" in a road rage scenario might de-escalate something, and most of them would not pass legal muster in MA, because they don't meet the "imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm." standard held within the law. That applies to ALL deadly force, not just -using- a firearm against someone.

Chew on that for a minute- if someone is actually attacking you, in a situation which justifies a deadly force response, are you REALLY going to pull a gun with the intention of not using it? Especially in the context of a road rage situation which has already deteriorated from bad, to worse, and then to really bad.

Road rage situations are a bucket of garbage and people should avoid them at all costs. Wreck your car, break draffic laws, do whatever it takes to avoid dealing with whoever it is that is harassing you. All of it will be cheaper than dealing with a possible ADW charge. They are worse than other situations because it doesn't take much for the DA/Prosecutor to spin the whole thing into "mutual combat" which can effectively take any self defense justifications off the table.

-Mike
 
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Rapid Fire said:
You are confronted by someone who appoaches your car because he has road rage or just being a jerk. You step out brandish (show ) your concealed weapon and ask him to move on or there could be a problem.
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I don't. I stay in my car, with door locked and windows closed. If possible, I drive away safely. If I'm really concerned over my safety, I'll jump the curb to do so. I'll also dial 911.

Draw my gun just because someone is being a jerk? No, I won't do that. Here in MA, that's a pretty good way to lose your LTC and/or wind up in jail.
 
Rapid Fire said:
Case scenerio,

You are confronted by someone who appoaches your car because he has road rage or just being a jerk. You step out brandish (show ) your concealed weapon and ask him to move on or there could be a problem.

Are you jeoperdizing your LTC or would this be considered self defense, just curious because I have been in this position with more idiots than I care to mention on the Roads. But I have never had my handgun with me. But I could see this happenning if I carried especially when I am on my Harley.
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Everyone else has covered the CCW issue very well, so i have to ask the other question that's been bugging me....If you really have people road raging at you this often, what are you doing to provoke them? [smile]

dysfunction.jpg
 
IMO if you show or pull your cw under those circumstances you will likely be in some legal trouble, you'd be lucky not to be. You are not licensed to make a bad situation worse than it already is. Say you brandish like that, then the guy pulls out his own gun and begins shooting. An innocent bystander is shot. YOU are the one who elevated the situation, brought it to this level. YOU will be held responsible, as you are the one who brandished your gun first.
I wouldn't stop, and I certainly wouldn't get out of the car under those circumstances. Just getting out shows attitude, you're looking for a fight. A DA will think so, so would a jury. The law isn't going to be on your side. You need to be really careful bud.
 
As soon as you exited your vehicle, you will have lost a needed element to make self defense; Fear. How scared could you have been if you exited your car and confronted or walked towards the subject? Also you have to show you had no other option but to use your firearm. In your scenerio you could have just kept driving. By confronting the guy you become a willing combatant and not just a victim. We as CCW holders have to go the extra mile to avoid any and all types of violent confrantations. In my mind my carrying makes me an even more peaceful person, as I do everything in my power to avoid conflict or violence. YMMV
 
In God We Trust said:
I agree that our society would probably be better served by shooting a POS that walks around attacking people, but I would rather just scare them away and not have to deal with a year long legal battle because I shot someone. Just my opinion, but if a .45 pointed at them de-escalates the situation, I would rather go that route.

After reading through some of the posts here, I think you guys are under the misconception that if you feel you are in danger, you have no choice but to shoot. Not true at all. There is nothing legally wrong with pulling a firearm, pointing it at an aggressor and letting him decide what to do next. There is no "duty to shoot". Yes, as long as you can articulate the threat to your life, you can of course shoot, but there is no crime if you choose not to. Don't give bad advice guys. I am not advocating either action, just stating facts.
Click to expand...

You can run into many problems having this mindset. The first is that you MUST have a fear that you are going to be seriously injured or killed. Thinking that you are just going to "scare" them might make you more lax about your assessment of such situations knowing you are not going to fire. The second and more serious problem is if you teach yourself not to shoot first you might not when you really need to. You can't have compassion for someone able and willing to do you harm, for they don't have any compassion for you.
 
drgrant said:
Your advice is possibly bad as well, especially in the context of MA.

I can only think of a handful of situations where "drawing to brandish" in a road rage scenario might de-escalate something, and most of them would not pass legal muster in MA, because they don't meet the "imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm." standard held within the law. That applies to ALL deadly force, not just -using- a firearm against someone.

Chew on that for a minute- if someone is actually attacking you, in a situation which justifies a deadly force response, are you REALLY going to pull a gun with the intention of not using it? Especially in the context of a road rage situation which has already deteriorated from bad, to worse, and then to really bad.

Road rage situations are a bucket of garbage and people should avoid them at all costs. Wreck your car, break draffic laws, do whatever it takes to avoid dealing with whoever it is that is harassing you. All of it will be cheaper than dealing with a possible ADW charge. They are worse than other situations because it doesn't take much for the DA/Prosecutor to spin the whole thing into "mutual combat" which can effectively take any self defense justifications off the table.

-Mike
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I was not addressing the road rage scenerio presented by the OP, just the act of brandishing in self defense in general. If you are in a road rage situation, you should always drive away, period. As far as brandishing goes, if you pull a gun on a knife weilding assailant, and they immediately drop the knife when the gun comes out, you will not be in any trouble for not shooting and probably charged with murder if you do and there are witnesses. I kind of thought the thread got away from the OP's situation and was just discussing the act of brandishing.

Even police officers are trained that brandishing is part of the escalation of force. they call it "presentation of deadly force" and in many situations they are required to do it before shooting. There are so many "what if" factors that can be presented, but as a rule, brandishing is not a crime as long as you are in fear for your life.
 
you need to think while you have a firearm and not get involved as the "jerk"

either walk away, drive away, but do not involve yourself in the outrage. If the

jerk turns into an aggressor by brandishing a knife, or something similar then

they have crossed the line and it may be you or them, your decision. keep in

mind that some folks just have to blow off some steam, once thats done they

will most likely walk away.
 
I really hate the term "brandishing". Massachusetts has NO brandishing law, so can we please stop using it in the context of what would happen if you do 'whatever' in this state. In legal terms it is assault with a deadly weapon.
 
"You dieth, GI," screamed the faggot. [note - from memory ]

Rep points to whoever gives me the source of the above quotes ( besides Gringo - obviously, he knows it)
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Ballhog, lord of the rings - and the South Park satire thereof. (via google)
 

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