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Brandishing a Firearm with LTC

In God We Trust said:
I hope this is not going to be viewed as thread ressurection, but I had a conversation with a guy at work yesterday and he brought up a good point in regards to brandishing.

The point was this: If brandishing is against the law, does your gun legally have to be invisible? Duh, of course not. So then what is the legal time limit between drawing and firing? The only way to establish that a gun has been "brandished" would be to have a set maximum allowable time between drawing and firing, right?

A trained SWAT officer could draw and kill me and all I would probably see would be a blur and a flash before everything went dark, but how about my 65 year old mother. To make it fair, I suggest at least 8-10 seconds be the law between drawing and firing. If the scumbag turns and starts to run away while I am taking aim or fumbling with my holster, I will just chase him down and back shoot him so that I can not be found guilty of brandishing.

This is really a dumb argument that has probably come about through the actions of dumb LEOs and Dumb DAs. Maybe even a few dumb jurors.
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OK

1) There IS no law against 'brandishing' in MA. Showing your gun in the course of an altercation is usually deemed ADW - Assault with a Deadly Weapon.

2) No, your gun doesn't have to be 'invisible' per statute - but walk around in MA OCing and see what happens. You get popped for DP and lose your LTC at minimum. It's happened. There's a northshore case where the wind blew open the guys cover garment exposing his CCW - cop saw it and busted him.

3) You're in MA. If you draw your gun, you're going to be arrested. Period. What you need to hope for is that the situation will allow you to make a very valid self-defense argument.
 
Bob P said:
1) There IS no law against 'brandishing' in MA. Showing your gun in the course of an altercation is usually deemed ADW - Assault with a Deadly Weapon.
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Just to be pedantic, in MA I believe that the charge is assault with a dangerous weapon. But you were spot for the rest.
 
M1911 said:
Just to be pedantic, in MA I believe that the charge is assault with a dangerous weapon. But you were spot for the rest.
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Pedant away! Accuracy is important and I come here to learn stuff as well as have a good time! Thanks!
 
In God We Trust said:
To make it fair, I suggest at least 8-10 seconds be the law between drawing and firing. If the scumbag turns and starts to run away while I am taking aim or fumbling with my holster, I will just chase him down and back shoot him so that I can not be found guilty of brandishing.
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While that might avoid some sort of ADW charge you have opened yourself to a WHOLE other set of problems by the fact that you have shot someone as they were running away. Please tell me I mis-understood statement in some way.
 
boilermaker said:
While that might avoid some sort of ADW charge you have opened yourself to a WHOLE other set of problems by the fact that you have shot someone as they were running away. Please tell me I mis-understood statement in some way.
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It was sarcasm, dude. I am attempting to debunk the whole brandishing thing from a common sense position. As it stands now in many people's opinions, The only valid legal defense against an ABDW charge for brandishing would be to convince the jury that you really were trying to kill the guy.
 
In God We Trust said:
It was sarcasm, dude. I am attempting to debunk the whole brandishing thing from a common sense position. As it stands now in many people's opinions, The only valid legal defense against an ABDW charge for brandishing would be to convince the jury that you really were trying to kill the guy.
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No, you convince the jury you were in imminent fear for your life and that the action of drawing and possibly firing your gun was justified by the level of threat against you.
 
In God We Trust said:
The only valid legal defense against an ABDW charge for brandishing would be to convince the jury that you really were trying to kill the guy.
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B = battery. ADW is what people get charged with for display in MA. One guy got charged with ABDW when he drew without firing, but he pistol whipped the other guy.
 
get dash cams that can rotate around and if you get into an altercation call the police and show them the video. let them arrest the other guy.
 
What if yoUr in traffic, and your wife and 2 yr old daughter are in the car... Id probably get out just to divert the situation away from my daughter, am I wrong? Ive had 2 shoulder surgeries in the past year if he decides to hit me I cant inreally swing back or defend myself , that said armed or unarmed idk what hes capable of abd with ny daughter and wife in the car what would you do?
 
familyman15 said:
What if yoUr in traffic, and your wife and 2 yr old daughter are in the car... Id probably get out just to divert the situation away from my daughter, am I wrong? Ive had 2 shoulder surgeries in the past year if he decides to hit me I cant inreally swing back or defend myself , that said armed or unarmed idk what hes capable of abd with ny daughter and wife in the car what would you do?
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You are required to retreat if it is safe to do so. If you can, drive away. If you can't drive away, you are not required to leave behind those in your protection.

But if you draw your gun against a threat which is not an immediate threat of death or grave bodily injury, you will be in a world of legal trouble. A fistfight between two men rarely rises to that level of threat in legal terms. OC spray would be a good addition to your daily carry gear.
 
familyman15 said:
What if yoUr in traffic, and your wife and 2 yr old daughter are in the car... Id probably get out just to divert the situation away from my daughter, am I wrong? Ive had 2 shoulder surgeries in the past year if he decides to hit me I cant inreally swing back or defend myself , that said armed or unarmed idk what hes capable of abd with ny daughter and wife in the car what would you do?
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If you're in traffic in a vehicle that moves, getting out of the car to deal with the threat is ****ing stupid when you're already driving a weapon. Not to mention guns + road rage = legal failure, most of the time in MA. Just don't do it, unless you have no other choice. Drive away. Even if it means smashing into shit. Fixing a ****ed up car will be cheaper.

-Mike
 
drgrant said:
If you're in traffic in a vehicle that moves, getting out of the car to deal with the threat is ****ing stupid when you're already driving a weapon. Not to mention guns + road rage = legal failure, most of the time in MA. Just don't do it, unless you have no other choice. Drive away. Even if it means smashing into shit. Fixing a ****ed up car will be cheaper.
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Absolutely.
 
cookingaway said:
i didnt read the whole thread but how about "printing" while walking around,is that a major no no?
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Not illegal (OC isn't illegal in MA, merely "frowned upon" by some, depending on context) but in my limited experience you'd have to print pretty bad and pretty obvious to get someone to call the kopsch on you. Back when I started carrying I always had some printing and was never bothered. I carried a P226 OWB (and a spare mag carrier on the other side) with nothing but a t-shirt on over all of it. There was some print but it was the kind of thing that joe average wouldnt know what it is, but a cop probably would. I lost track of all the times I was ahead of, behind LEOs in dunkin donuts lines with that setup and nobody said a word.

-Mike
 
Rapid Fire said:
Case scenerio,

You are confronted by someone who appoaches your car because he has road rage or just being a jerk. You step out brandish (show ) your concealed weapon and ask him to move on or there could be a problem.

Are you jeoperdizing your LTC or would this be considered self defense, just curious because I have been in this position with more idiots than I care to mention on the Roads. But I have never had my handgun with me. But I could see this happenning if I carried especially when I am on my Harley.
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Don't get out of your vehicle. First question they're going to ask you is why you got out of your vehicle? Why didn't you just throw it in reverse and drive away? By opening the door and getting out, you're no longer the victim unless you can justify there was no other option. Even if you can't move your car, If he's unarmed, it's not likely he's going to break through modern tempered glass. They're going to hold you to the standard of "what would a reasonable person do in that situation?" If you were unarmed, you would (unless you're looking for a fight) probably remain in your vehicle.

Factors that might help would include disparity of force, his hands concealed, threatening manner/ posture backed by verbal threats of violence, "I'm Going to kill you." This isn't a stand your ground state.

no one is stopping you from drawing your gun while in your car and keeping it hidden. Keep your window rolled up and do your best to diffuse the situation. If he presents a significant threat, your gun will shoot through glass just fine.

In the case of the motorcycle, you have even more maneuverability and the question of, "why didn't you just ride away?" Will definitely come up. He gets out drivers side, just roll right by passenger side. If you have to commit a few civil infractions to remove yourself from a potentially dangerous situation, it's going to be a lot easier dealing with than the ramifications of drawing your gun on someone.

At the very least, drawing your weapon could be grounds for the loss of your license if he reports you. At worst, you could be charged with assault with a dangerous weapon. Hell, all he would have to do is say "sir, someone just pulled a gun on me when I went to ask him for directions."

Drawing your gun preemptively in Massachusetts is probably not going to end well in most cases.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
"I have been in this position with more idiots than I care to mention on the Roads"

There is a pattern here.
 
This is very simple stuff.

Don't get out of the car.
Retreat if possible.
Keep driving. If the problem follows you, call 911 and drive the problem to the police.
Don't draw or show a firearm unless you would be justified in pulling the trigger.
 
i would say if you are trapped and still are uncertain of the situation keep it in hand covered by clothes if possible, thats why i like hammerless j frames, fire it through your jacket packet 5 times without jams or snagging. remove jacket immediately as it will likely be on fire.[rofl]
 
afeid said:
Was told by an old timer way back when, that you don’t letanyone know you have a weapon until it’s time to use it.
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When I took the concealed carry class at Mass Firearms school that was something I remember being said and for some reason it stuck with me. If I carry concealed never let anyone know I am carrying until it matters and don't litter my car with bumper stickers that say NRA or smith& wesson and so forth. Thankfully I own cars that I wouldn't put bumper/window stickers on anyways, but the less said the better. One of my neighbors knows I have guns only because I know they own more guns than I do, the rest don't need to. The only time someone will know I am carrying is when I get to the range and see me pull my revolver out.
 
dcmdon said:
This is very simple stuff.

Don't get out of the car.
Retreat if possible.
Keep driving. If the problem follows you, call 911 and drive the problem to the police.
Don't draw or show a firearm unless you would be justified in pulling the trigger.
Click to expand...

This, plus a "fun" little aside... Brandishing a handgun during a typical (typical meaning mobile *******s making gestures, yelling, etc, the usual stupid shit, not crackhead smashing your window in dense traffic kind of shit) road rage incident doesn't end very well a lot of the time in MA. Just ask Linda Hamilton. Oh wait, you can't, she's gone, because she committed suicide after being relentlessly beaten down by the state after brandishing her handgun to a truck driver that was trying to run her off the road.

http://www.massnews.com/past_issues/2001/march 2001/martruck.htm

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55798

-Mike
 
As with all self defense scenarios, the first choice is to get out of the situation. The rest is a simple decision tree though:

No weapon + CAN leave = leave
No weapon + CAN'T leave = Lock doors, call 911
Deadly weapon + CAN leave = Leave, call 911
Deadly weapon + CAN'T leave = Pew, pew

99 times out of 100, DO NOT EXIT YOUR VEHICLE. That is purely ego-driven. It's not your job to apprehend criminals. Your job is to get home safe to your family.
 
jujutsuka said:
As with all self defense scenarios, the first choice is to get out of the situation. The rest is a simple decision tree though:

No weapon + CAN leave = leave
No weapon + CAN'T leave = Lock doors, call 911
Deadly weapon + CAN leave = Leave, call 911
Deadly weapon + CAN'T leave = Pew, pew

99 times out of 100, DO NOT EXIT YOUR VEHICLE. That is purely ego-driven. It's not your job to apprehend criminals. Your job is to get home safe to your family.
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Perfect.

Can I plagiarize this for my pistol class?
 
My brother in law had the local cops show up at his door after one of his commutes because some lady on the road reported him as having pointed a gun at her during a road rage incident and they tracked him down. Now he doesn't own or have access to any guns, he just put his index finger to his temple in a "use your brain, dumbass" gesture.
 

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