Boston warrantless searches still on

JonJ said:
But they're dealing with sheep, not hornets.
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Right... And the first drug lab, prostitution ring or any other onsite intel then gather "about the area" is not going to be used for future warrants to break in doors. The Sheep may let them in, but the last time I looked, those were not one resident tenants either and I am sure some of the occupants will take offense to that.

[thinking]
 
well they will certainly need to stay sharp and on their toes because they may very well run into some resistance at some point.
 
The theory is that they'll meet an adult at the door, and the message will be, "We have heard that your son might be involved with guns, and would you please let us in to search his room."

A responsible parent, under pressure from police, with "scarry" news like that will probably say okay (while worring that if she [statistical assumption] says no, a later find of a gun would haver her abetting a crime).

Of course, everyone worries that saying to to a search makes one vulnerable to claims of "if you've nothing to hide, why not let us look".

Anyway, that's the theory. What happens whent he adult of the residence is not home -- say, only the juvenile pr am imder age re;atove? Applying the pressure would be that much more easily accomplished -- i really doubt they'd say we'll come back later.

OTOH, it is possible that these visits will have been arranged via telephone, beforehand -- I don't know.
 
I have been thinking about the logic in the "Gun Grab" that will be occurring. The point that is being overlooked is that the assumption is that the gun is what is causing the violence in the streets. Never mind the criminal element that lives in those housing projects surrounding areas. The basic premise is that the gun in the home, regardless if it is lawful, makes the person a greater threat to society.

While I do not doubt that someone who does not posses a license to own a firearm is breaking the law, the fact remains that after the gun is seized, you still have the criminal element left behind. And that is the flaw and the lesson none of the Liberals will ever understand. The gun does not make any one more dangerous one day than the next: Violent crime takes many forms.

If they really want to start to clean up the streets, have random checkpoints with finger print identification scanners. You have a warrant, you are arrested on the spot. That is taking care of business.

I am sick and tired in blaming the gun for the problems of society. If a gun is found in the home, the parent or child should be arrested.
 
A juvenile can't give consent to a search of the home, nor can he allow the police to enter, unless there's exigent circumstances. Nor will the police enter, contrary to what some people think here.
Most of the parents who will allow the searches are really prisoners of their "children". There's no pressure by the police, despite what some people here proclaim. And if a gun's found, it's taken off the street. And since it's a legal search, the kid's going to be charged. This has happened all over the country in the past, it's a legitimate
way to gain entry and get a search allowed, it's just that it's now being touted in the papers as a new crime fighting strategy. Don't buy into the hype and think it's a way to get our rights eroded.
 
S. Kelly said:
And if a gun's found, it's taken off the street. And since it's a legal search, the kid's going to be charged.
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Not too sure where you received your information, but no one is to be arrested. And that is the beginning and the end of the lesson and why LAW abiding citizens are up and arms about this. WE play by the rules every day, constantly hearing that guns are the evil of society. Weak need Liberals are to blame, and the court systems for keeping violent criminals on the street.


This has happened all over the country in the past, it's a legitimate way to gain entry and get a search allowed, it's just that it's now being touted in the papers as a new crime fighting strategy. Don't buy into the hype and think it's a way to get our rights eroded.
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Yea, right. This is a farce and does not accomplish anything but take the weapon off the street for that moment in time. This will solve nothing in the grand scheme, and will only delay the inevitable.

There is no hype: This is a horrible miscarriage of justice and everyone knows it. Sorry, but if you are going to let an officer into your home, and an firearm is found, and the person does NOT have a valid license, that person should GO TO JAIL.

This is a "feel good", week kneed excuse for not doing proper Police work.

This is why we are outraged:

CHAPTER 269. CRIMES AGAINST PUBLIC PEACE


Chapter 269: Section 10. Carrying dangerous weapons; possession of machine gun or sawed-off shotguns; possession of large capacity weapon or large capacity feeding device; punishment


(g) Whoever, within this commonwealth, produces for sale, delivers or causes to be delivered, orders for delivery, sells or offers for sale, or fails to keep records regarding, any rifle or shotgun without complying with the requirement of a serial number, as provided in section one hundred and twenty-nine B of chapter one hundred and forty, shall for the first offense be punished by confinement in a jail or house of correction for not more than two and one-half years, or by a fine of not more than five hundred dollars.

(h)(1) Whoever owns, possesses or transfers a firearm, rifle, shotgun or ammunition without complying with the provisions of section 129C of chapter 140 shall be punished by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than 2 years or by a fine of not more than $500. Whoever commits a second or subsequent violation of this paragraph shall be punished by imprisonment in a house of correction for not more than 2 years or by a fine of not more than $1,000, or both. Any officer authorized to make arrests may arrest without a warrant any person whom the officer has probable cause to believe has violated this paragraph.

(2) Any person who leaves a firearm, rifle, shotgun or ammunition unattended with the intent to transfer possession of such firearm, rifle, shotgun or ammunition to any person not licensed under section 129C of chapter 140 or section 131 of chapter 140 for the purpose of committing a crime or concealing a crime shall be punished by imprisonment in a house of correction for not more than 21/2 years or in state prison for not more than 5 years.

(i) Whoever knowingly fails to deliver or surrender a revoked or suspended license to carry or possess firearms or machine guns issued under the provisions of section one hundred and thirty-one or one hundred and thirty-one F of chapter one hundred and forty, or firearm identification card, or receipt for the fee for such card, or a firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, as provided in section one hundred and twenty-nine D of chapter one hundred and forty, unless an appeal is pending, shall be punished by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than two and one-half years or by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars.
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NOTE WELL:

(h)(1) Whoever owns, possesses or transfers a firearm, rifle, shotgun or ammunition without complying with the provisions of section 129C of chapter 140 shall be punished by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than 2 years or by a fine of not more than $500. Whoever commits a second or subsequent violation of this paragraph shall be punished by imprisonment in a house of correction for not more than 2 years or by a fine of not more than $1,000, or both. Any officer authorized to make arrests may arrest without a warrant any person whom the officer has probable cause to believe has violated this paragraph.

Please, tell me how we are suppose to react as law abiding citizens to a consequence free visit from the Police?
 
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Where I live, in a fairly low crime town, there was a case in the newspaper, where a woman from Boston had moved to our town because her son was involved in gang and other problems. So what happened, he got into some kind of violent altercation at his new high school. The mother was quoted as being all irate and saying "we moved out here to get away from that stuff". Well, guess what, she brought it with her. It isn't the gun, it's the sociopath behind it.
 
In_God_We_Trust said:
Not too sure where you received your information, but no one is to be arrested. And that is the beginning and the end of the lesson and why LAW abiding citizens are up and arms about this. WE play by the rules every day, constantly hearing that guns are the evil of society. Weak need Liberals are to blame, and the court systems for keeping violent criminals on the street.




Yea, right. This is a farce and does not accomplish anything but take the weapon off the street for that moment in time. This will solve nothing in the grand scheme, and will only delay the inevitable.

There is no hype: This is a horrible miscarriage of justice and everyone knows it. Sorry, but if you are going to let an officer into your home, and an firearm is found, and the person does NOT have a valid license, that person should GO TO JAIL.

This is a "feel good", week kneed excuse for not doing proper Police work.
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Bingo!!!

Now imagine Johnny GangBanger gets ratted out. Cops come and mom let's them in and Johnny loses his forty, but doesn't go to jail.

Ya think nothing is going to happen, or will Johnny now go looking for the OTHER GangBanger that ratted him out?

This will lead to an INCREASE in violence.

and Mennino will say it is because we didn't get ENOUGH guns off the streets[shocked]
 
They won't even be charged:

"In the next two weeks, Boston police officers who are assigned to schools will begin going to homes where they believe teenagers might have guns. The officers will travel in groups of three, dress in plainclothes to avoid attracting negative attention, and ask the teenager's parent or legal guardian for permission to search. If the parents say no, police said, the officers will leave.

If officers find a gun, police said, they will not charge the teenager with unlawful gun possession, unless the firearm is linked to a shooting or homicide."

http://boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/11/17/police_to_search_for_guns_in_homes/
 
If they find that the gun was used in a crime the person will be charged or investigated according to what I read and if they find something illegal, other than the gun during the search the person may be charged as well if news was accurate.
 
S. Kelly said:
I said someone will be charged, not arrested. You don't have to be arrested to be charged.
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This is all well and good that if the weapon was used in a crime or if other contraband is found in the home, the occupant will be “charged”: However, a felony is a felony, cut and dry. I am tired of hearing the same old double talk that we have to “engage community leaders” so a common ground can be struck to ensure the equality for all.

There was a saying back in the 60’s, that in the halls of justice, the only justice is in the halls: There is a twist to that today, as community leaders and activists can short circuit the "charge and arrest" process at the street level, due to “unfair profiling” and laws that “target” inner city youth. Never mind that the Police are trying to enforce the laws, they are now monitored and governed not by the laws set forth by the legislature, but by community members whose sole purpose is to dwell in the grim days gone past where their only source of power is to constantly remind people that they are still “victims” of racism.

And now, why are the politicians surprised at the rising violence when NOTHING has been done to curb the violence? Has justice been served? If I were a community member, I would be outraged at the City Officials and Boston Police Commissioner for signing off on this waste of time and effort. At the end of the day, can you honestly say that ANYTHING will be accomplished? Nothing will ever change. Just look at these quotes from the article:

Some clergy members have apparently volunteered to accompany police on the searches because they are suspicious of their intent.
"My belief is there are ministers that will do it as part of their ministry because they want to make sure police don't overstep their boundaries," said the Rev. David Wright, executive director of the Black Ministerial Alliance, whose board has not decided whether to endorse the program. "And I think that's a valid point."
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Other ministers are staying away from the searches. They fear that if they are with police when they find a gun that is connected to a homicide, residents will stop trusting them.
"I'm not going to go and help them get a gun, and then a kid gets arrested because there's a body on it," said the Rev. Shaun O. Harrison, a Dorchester minister. "There is my credibility going down the tubes."
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It all boils down to this: What if the weapon is found in the home? How are you going to prove that the occupant was involved in the crime? What if that person was stashing the weapon for another gang member? What if another gang member planted the gun in the house? How can you prove anything? Without an arrest for the felony weapon charge, there is no basis on which that person can be charged!

This is where the lack of Police work is going to leave these cases out to dry...!

CHAPTER 269. CRIMES AGAINST PUBLIC PEACE
(h)(1) Whoever owns, possesses or transfers a firearm, rifle, shotgun or ammunition without complying with the provisions of section 129C of chapter 140 shall be punished by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than 2 years or by a fine of not more than $500. Whoever commits a second or subsequent violation of this paragraph shall be punished by imprisonment in a house of correction for not more than 2 years or by a fine of not more than $1,000, or both. Any officer authorized to make arrests may arrest without a warrant any person whom the officer has probable cause to believe has violated this paragraph.
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This is a sham, an outrage, and as a lawful gun owner, this truly sickens me that anyone would consider this a step in the right direction. Until the City Officials and Politicians grow a set of balls, and start cracking down on ALL violence, this problem will never end.

Stop F**KING TALKING AND START DOING!​
 
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Whatever the outcome of this program, I'm sure that Rosenthal will claim that it proves that more anti-gun legislation is required.

I doubt that accurate records will be kept, but I'd like to know:

o How many total attempts at searches get made

o How many of them were rejected

o How many searches came up dry

o How many guns total are taken

o What makes and models

o How many guns' ballistics trace the gun to shootings

o How many guns had been reported stolen, and were they returned

o How much ammunition is found -- just that in the gun, or boxes

--

Actually, I expect a low yield. What kid in the 'hood isn't telling his mom, "Unless you're sure that there isn't a speck of weed in the apartment, it'd be best if you don't let anyone in without a warrant."
 
Warrantless searches

This program in Boston isn't in place to take guns from good guys.What they are hoping for is to have parents call them and allow them to go into their Gang Banging sons room and get the stashed ,stolen gun.Even if it works only once I would call it a success.Don't turn this forum into a Cop Bashing room too.All of my Cop buddies including myself are 2nd ammendment supporters,hunters and NRA members.
 
pbearperry said:
This program in Boston isn't in place to take guns from good guys.What they are hoping for is to have parents call them and allow them to go into their Gang Banging sons room and get the stashed ,stolen gun.Even if it works only once I would call it a success.Don't turn this forum into a Cop Bashing room too.All of my Cop buddies including myself are 2nd ammendment supporters,hunters and NRA members.
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QUOTE ME WHERE I COP BASHED!
Please read my responses and tell me where I am incorrect? Please: I ask you to READ first before you comment and make a stupid allegation with no foundation to back up that statement.

You could be asking the "community leaders" that question. [thinking][rolleyes][thinking]
 
In_God_We_Trust said:
QUOTE ME WHERE I COP BASHED!
Please read my responses and tell me where I am incorrect? Please: I ask you to READ first before you comment and make a stupid allegation with no foundation to back up that statement.

You could be asking the "community leaders" that question. [thinking][rolleyes][thinking]
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+1 I didn't see any cop bashing going on at all...[thinking]


I don't see how ignoring laws for illegal possession of firearms for these gangbangers can in any way be called a success.

What message is it sending them? No consequences for breaking the gun laws!!!!!

This whole program assumes that the GUNS are the problem and not the lawless thugs ILLEGALLY that acquire them!
 
Cops and guns

I didn't say you were cop bashing,I said lets not turn it into one.Cops don't make the laws or the policies,they enforce them whether they like them or not or they are gone.Being a Cop in the Northeast is not a short carreer,it takes many years to be able to get a pension and retire.That 20 year movie and tv thing does not exist.I saw the job change tremendously over 32 years and not for the better believe me.As far as guns go,there is nobody in this forum who loves them more than me.If I ever get disarmed I will be ready for the box.
 
pbearberry, here is my whole objection to this:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
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What part of "shall not be violated" do you not understand?
 
The reason this "searching" is happening is because parents have failed to parent and have allowed the government (The Great Provider) to do the parenting for them. I have no problem with the police going to door and asking to search. If these people are so frigging ignorant then they get what they deserve, PERIOD.
What I do have a problem with is NOT CHARGING if they find a firearm. Screw these dirty, rotten, gangbanging, scuzzy, low life pigs. Charge them and lock their asses up.
 
JonJ said:
The reason this "searching" is happening is because parents have failed to parent and have allowed the government (The Great Provider) to do the parenting for them. I have no problem with the police going to door and asking to search. If these people are so frigging ignorant then they get what they deserve, PERIOD.
What I do have a problem with is NOT CHARGING if they find a firearm. Screw these dirty, rotten, gangbanging, scuzzy, low life pigs. Charge them and lock their asses up.
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+1
 
The ridiculous parts of this aside from the fact that no one will be prosecuted and no one is held responsible are:

1. If you take away the bad guy's illegal gun and leave the bad guy on the street, you have merely created a new demand for another illegal gun.

2. How many times are you going to warn the criminals in those neighborhoods that you are coming to search for illegal guns? The authorities starting warning these thugs in November!

Boston Police Commissioner:

Hey, in five months we're going to search your home for illegal guns.

Hey, did I mention we're going to search your home for illegal guns in a few months.

Oh ya, by the way, we're going to be searching your home for illegal guns in a few weeks.

Hey, we've had meetings with local ministers and public leaders letting them know we are going to be ....

Makes you wonder if there is someone in the Boston P.D. assigned to officially make calls to homes with warrants on ahead of time letting them know there is a search coming!
 
Rights violated

Juveniles whose folks let the Police into their rooms to search for illegal guns are not getting their rights violated.The parents are in control of the dwelling not the kids.In fact if the kid is an adult and does not support himself,the courts have allowed searches also.WHy are you so concerned about cops getting gang bangers guns?
 
pbearperry said:
Juveniles whose folks let the Police into their rooms to search for illegal guns are not getting their rights violated.The parents are in control of the dwelling not the kids.In fact if the kid is an adult and does not support himself,the courts have allowed searches also.WHy are you so concerned about cops getting gang bangers guns?
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I don't know how you could have missed it, but the concern is that the gangbangers will not be held accountable for said illegal gun.
 
Because it sets an awful precedent - I'm sure that most of the parents will be intimidated by two cops showing up at their house/apartment asking to search - and that they won't realize that they can say NO. Whether or not they're good parents, they STILL are citizens and they STILL have rights.

You want the guns, go get a friggin' warrant. Go do some police work. Don't go door to door on an illegal treasure hunt.
 
dwarven1 said:
Because it sets an awful precedent - I'm sure that most of the parents will be intimidated by two cops showing up at their house/apartment asking to search - and that they won't realize that they can say NO. Whether or not they're good parents, they STILL are citizens and they STILL have rights.

You want the guns, go get a friggin' warrant. Go do some police work. Don't go door to door on an illegal treasure hunt.
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Consensual searches are a fact of life.
That's a poor argument that you can't back up. "Oh, I'm so scared of the police, I forgot how to say no. And we never learned the Bill of Rights in public school. Don't beat me, don't beat me"

How about this, we have Miranda for the constitutionally challenged. Now we can the have "Menino Warning" for those to stupid to learn.
We're here to ask you to search your son/daughter's bedroom because of suspected criminal activity. You have the right to refuse us to search. If you do allow us to search and we find a firearm, your son/daughter will not be charged. If the firearm we find is connected to criminal activity, your son/daughter will be charged.
 

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