Boston to toss their FN303s into the harbor...

[vellnueve]

Commish puts kibosh on pepper pellet guns
By Dave Wedge
Boston Herald Chief Enterprise Reporter

Thursday, February 22, 2007 - Updated: 01:11 AM EST

More than two years after an Emerson College student was killed by a police-fired pepper spray pellet during Red Sox [team stats] revelry, Boston’s top cop is vowing to forever ban the weapons, angrily saying they should be dumped in Boston Harbor.

“Never. They’ll never again be used in the city of Boston,” police Commissioner Ed Davis said of the FN303 “less-lethal” pellet guns.

Bought by the department with federal Homeland Security funds before the 2004 Democratic National Convention, the heralded crowd control weapons turned out to be a disaster for the city when 21-year-old Victoria Snelgrove was accidentally struck in the eye and killed by a pellet fired by police trying to quell Red Sox rioters.



Her Oct. 21, 2004, death marked the first and only time the weapons were used on Boston’s streets. Former Commissioner Kathleen O’Toole shelved the department’s 13 FN303s after the tragedy and they were stored in the armory.

Davis said he met with the commission that investigated Snelgrove’s shooting and decided they weren’t fit for the department. He said the weapons were “much more powerful than what they were perceived to be” and called crowd control projectiles an “inherent problem.”

Asked if he might try to sell the guns, Davis said, “I was thinking more like (dumping them in) Boston Harbor.”

He said the department will use other means of crowd control such as horse patrols or pepper spray foggers.

As for the FN303s, a police spokeswoman said they are slated to be taken to a factory where they’ll be melted down and made into sewer caps.

In a statement, Mayor Thomas M. Menino said: “I fully support Commissioner Davis’ decision to get rid of the pellet guns. What he decides to do with them is completely up to him.”

A spokesman for the Snelgrove family declined comment. A spokeswoman for the gunmaker, FN Herstal, did not return a call.

A suit filed by the family against FN Herstal ended in an undisclosed settlement. The city paid a $5.1 million settlement and was reportedly reimbursed $438,000 as a result of the family’s settlement with the gun maker.

The deadly mishap also resulted in the suspension of four officers, the demotion of a police captain and the retirement of the superintendent in charge of the scene.

Davis’ ban of the guns was hailed by some city councilors.

“We have seen firsthand that these non-lethal weapons don’t come as advertised,” Councilor Michael Flaherty said. “I think Commissioner Davis is making the right decision.”

Councilor Stephen Murphy said, “It’s an unfortunate chapter that is best closed.”

He added, however, that he would like the department to try to recoup the cost of the guns. The cost of the weapons and ammunition has been pegged at $36,000.

“It’s a horrible waste of money,” Murphy said. “Rather than dump them in the harbor, I’d like to see if we can get something back for them.”

Sad. The gun killed the student, not the officer. Never mind that this type of gun, which is identicaly to paintball guns in every way except for the projectiles which are obviously filled with CS, is not and never was designed to be shot any higher than knee height. These things are supposed to be shot at the ground in front of a crowd, any 10 year old paintball player knows that a shot to the eyes is most likely going to be fatal.

But no, it's not that the officer using it had no idea what he was doing, the gun fired itself. What a waste.

 

[ICZEOZN]

How dare you question the Boston police! They are the only ones professional enough to handle firearms/paintball guns. There is no possible way that an officer may have made a mistake, it is obviously the gun/paintball gun's fault. Not shooting people in the face is harder than it looks.

 

[drgrant]

Yeah, blame the gun... what a douchebag. How about training people to
use them properly? If they don't want to make that investment, then
maybe they should sell the guns to someone who will, and get the taxpayers
their money back. This guy sounds like a grandstanding liberal
a**h***. Only from Boston.

Sounds to me like he's going "wah wah wah, these guns are eeevil" or some
shit. If he feels that way then maybe they should get rid of their sidearms,
too, because they don't need those, either.

I hate these people.....

“We have seen firsthand that these non-lethal weapons don’t come as advertised,” Councilor Michael Flaherty said. “I think Commissioner Davis is making the right decision.”

It was never advertised as "non lethal", meathead pol. Any weapon capable
of incapacitating someone CAN BE lethal if misused. I'm damn sure
that FNH has about 90000 warnings about the lethal consequences of
the misuse of the devices they sell; and it's probably lorded on over and
over again in any training materials, as well.

-Mike

 

[dwarven1]

Was the idiot who shot the fatal pellet ever charged? Or merely demoted or suspended? He SHOULD be charged - at the very least, he knew he wasn't trained with that gun, IIRC.

But it's much easier to blame the gun.

 

[Chris]

$36,000 for one time use. DAMN. My paintball gun is custom built and only cost me $700 and a case of paint is about $200. Think they will take $900 for the lot?

Actually, I'd love to have the gun. Then I could point to one item in my collection and say "of all the guns in here, the paintball gun is the only one that I know has taken a life."

Yea, lets see.... Boston's inept use of funds just cost roughly what I pay in 6 YEARS in MA income tax. Add in the settlement for the manslaughter and we are up to 856 years of Ma state income tax WASTED. Is Mumbles trying to outdo "Spend it all Cadillac Deval"? Well, he succeeded. Deval's Caddy over its 4 year lease would only equal 10 years of my state income tax.

Gee, hon, I'm sorry about the budget, but I just think that $36,000 investment we made was the deval's fault, so lets just dump it into the harbor.

Sure makes one wonder just how much pure waste exists in the system.

Anyone know what happened to Mitt's Crown Victoria that King Deval replaced? Was it too dumped into the harbor?

I wonder. If I started joking about dumping $36,000 in CS gas into the harbor if the 'powers that be' would just ignore my joke. Hello? EPA?

 

[vellnueve]

I built my main paintball gun for about $500 and some old parts from others I had lying around, and two others custom built by Palmer's (custom shop in California) for 300 and 450.

Chris, if you're paying $200 for a case of paint, I suggest that you start shopping elsewhere. Try 60-70 for the highest grade stuff. Actually, Kittery has the real good stuff for 50 a case.

This new police commissioner is clearly a moron.

 

[Chris]

I built my main paintball gun for about $500 and some old parts from others I had lying around, and two others custom built by Palmer's (custom shop in California) for 300 and 450.

You too? Mine is a Palmer Typhoon. Glenn built mine up with a bottom line and the ported barrel and did a trigger job on it. I still run a 100 ball hopper and a 16oz anti-siphon CO2 because that's all I need. (^_^) Lots of fun watching some kid with a bling Angel (or whatever the hot marker of the season is) stare at you in total disbelief that his paint hose never touched you, but you got him with just 2-3 shots. Better still are the ones that scream "OUCH" and then look around wondering where the shot came from.

I usually only get one scenario outing a year with a group of friends. I hate playing speedball or the common pick-up games. Those things are just there to sell paint.

Chris, if you're paying $200 for a case of paint, I suggest that you start shopping elsewhere.

Marbleizer (brand I like) is in the $60 range. But the stuff being sold to the police for crowd control is about 100 rounds for $200 last I knew. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that. I have NO idea what they pay for the guns. I'll bet whatever it is, it's like buying a Nelson for $1000.

 

[rscalzo]

From what I remember about the case, it came down to a total lack of training and supervision. Blaming the inanimate object is foolhardy.

 

[LoginName]

The $36,000 waste is pocket change compared to the Homeland Security money Boston received for the Dem convention.

The BPD and State Police have equipment left over from that fiasco that a modern day army would be proud to own.

As far as the lawsuit... after Mumbles paid off, didn't the city join in on the family lawsuit against FN so they could recoup the money it paid out?

 

[RKG]

Was the idiot who shot the fatal pellet ever charged? Or merely demoted or suspended? He SHOULD be charged - at the very least, he knew he wasn't trained with that gun, IIRC.

But it's much easier to blame the gun.

There were two guys who fired the devices in the volley that proved fatal. One was a patrolman. The other was a long-time, highly-decorated, and highly-respected senior guy who suffered a momentary lapse, possibly in the outrage of what was going on before his eyes. He paid dearly for his mistake.

 

[dvajda]

Well, that and he wasn't trained to shoot the damn thing. Also, rumor has it when they were training with the devices, instead of actually training, they just had their chuckles by using it for headshots on targets. Basically, they fooled around during training, and when it came time for the real deal, they shot someone in the head. They were supposed to have trained by shooting at the ground and letting the balls "skip" into the crowd at low level. More people should have been sacked. That said, I think the general public doesn't understand that "less-than-lethal" is not "non-lethal" and these things will happen. Solution: don't be out in a huge crowd that is just looking for trouble. Because BPD may shoot you in the head...

 

[dwarven1]

The other was a long-time, highly-decorated, and highly-respected senior guy who suffered a momentary lapse, possibly in the outrage of what was going on before his eyes. He paid dearly for his mistake.

Well, that and he wasn't trained to shoot the damn thing.

I seem to recall that the story I read was that a senior officer ordered the patrolmen to shoot and when one of the patrolmen said no, he wasn't trained on the gun, the senior guy grabbed it and let fly - and he'd never been trained, either. At least, that was the story in the Globe. Any truth to that?

 

[boomerang]

They weren't paint balls. I'm sick of hearing that they were paintballs.

They're called trauma pellets.

They weigh over a half ounce and are filled with lead. they have stabilizing fins and can be purchased with OC filling behind the half ounce of lead just for extra punishment.

A headshot with those things would sscrew u up.

Those things should be used for riot control in Sumatra or some other shitty place where rioters are throwing molotov cocktails and such. Not here.

 

[drgrant]

They weren't paint balls. I'm sick of hearing that they were paintballs.

They're called trauma pellets.

They weigh over a half ounce and are filled with lead. they have stabilizing fins and can be purchased with OC filling behind the half ounce of lead just for extra punishment.

The FN303 ammo uses Bismuth, not Lead. And FN says their projectiles
weigh 8.5 grams, which certainly isn't a half ounce, more like .3 ounce
or thereabouts. Not that it wouldn't hurt to get hit by one of the
things- and you are right, FN says the primary mechanism is
trauma- eg, hitting someone in the ass with one is supposed to hurt and
dissuade them from doing stupid shit like throwing bottles at police.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

Here's a wonderfully slanted article from the GLOB:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/ma...11/crowd_control_guns_accuracy_is_questioned/

Despite the hyperbole there is one piece of information in here I found
useful... that apparently one other person was hit in the forehead by
a projectile. This seems to further indicate that the police didn't know
what the hell they were doing with the FN303 launchers.

-Mike

 

[boomerang]

Woops. You're right. My bad math. sorry.

 

[vellnueve]

You too? Mine is a Palmer Typhoon. Glenn built mine up with a bottom line and the ported barrel and did a trigger job on it. I still run a 100 ball hopper and a 16oz anti-siphon CO2 because that's all I need. (^_^) Lots of fun watching some kid with a bling Angel (or whatever the hot marker of the season is) stare at you in total disbelief that his paint hose never touched you, but you got him with just 2-3 shots. Better still are the ones that scream "OUCH" and then look around wondering where the shot came from.

I usually only get one scenario outing a year with a group of friends. I hate playing speedball or the common pick-up games. Those things are just there to sell paint.



Marbleizer (brand I like) is in the $60 range. But the stuff being sold to the police for crowd control is about 100 rounds for $200 last I knew. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that. I have NO idea what they pay for the guns. I'll bet whatever it is, it's like buying a Nelson for $1000.

Mine is a Stroker (PGP modified to semi auto) and the other is a pump PGP that was upgraded in just about every aspect to Pug standards. I also have a Blazer. I was going to have a Hurricane built, but I sold the KP that I bought for the project in order to buy my SW520 (and do not regret that at all)

I do like pickup games just because I get the chance to teach kids how to be smarter and more responsible because a paintball to the eye, like I said, will penetrate the eye and go into the brain in most cases.

I do think that the police are getting hosed on buying these things. The Pepperball launchers that that company sells are nearly unmodified Tippmanns that fire I believe the same caliber projectile as a paintball with the same equipment.

And to the guy who complained about me calling it a paintball gun, the fact is that with any of these sorts of things (FN303s, paintball guns, pepperball guns) you are still not supposed to shoot to the face. The officer is still quite responsible for what happened.

 

[dwarven1]

[hijack]
Hey, you paintballers - my Lodge is having a Fundraise in April at Fox4 Paintball in Upton, MA - instead of paying $25 for admission, you pay only $20, and $10 of that goes to a charity (trying to help raise money to pay for an new assistance dog for a woman who's current dog is dying of cancer). Tentatively it is scheduled for April 14th - I'll post details in the General Forum next week after we've confirmed the date.

Hope I see a bunch of you there!

Ross
[/hijack]

 

[Gammon]

On the news today (WRKO) it was announced that these guns would me melted down and made into manhole covers. Why not just return them to FN for a refund? Before I blame the officers involved I would like to know how much training they had in the use of this weapon and what, exactly, they were told as to its potential lethality. Obviously the officers shouldn't have fired at the upper body.

 

[Weerd Beard]

From what I remember about the case, it came down to a total lack of training and supervision. Blaming the inanimate object is foolhardy.

+1

Take somebody who's never driven anything but a compact car with an automatic shift and drop them in a Semi-Truck with a Double Trailer and a Manual Transmission....then blame the truck for the accident!

I cut my hand while slicing a bagel yesterday morning. Using this logic I should throw my knife away because it was used incompetently.

Grrrrr

-Weer'd Beard

 

[7.62x39]

I love the idea of melting them down to make manhole covers. What a bunch of idiots, there isn't enough steel in those things to make a hub cap out of, let alone a manhole cover. They're like 90% aluminum and plastic.

 

[JonJ]

Symbolism over substance.

 

[matt1956]

Skip ahead to the year 2016 and the headlines will read;

“Never. They’ll never again be used in the city of Boston,” police Commissioner Ed Davis said of the department issues handguns.

"It is simply too dangerous for us to even consider arming our police officers any more." He continues to say, "We will be replacing all of these evil guns with 'Fun Noodles'".

In a statement, Mayor Thomas M. Menino said: “I fully support Commissioner Davis’ decision to get rid of the guns. What he decides to do with them is completely up to him.”

 

[Thor67]

I saw this on the news today.

Can you imagine this happening 20 years ago? I feel badly for the girl and her family, but the 303's seem like a pretty good tool. For the most part, they're vary safe to use. Seems like a BPD training issue to me.

The FN303 ammo uses Bismuth, not Lead

I think they're even frangible.

 

[KMaurer]

This is a pretty routine response to a screw up by the Boston PD. It's cheaper to dump them all and blame the manufacturer than to accept responsibility for piss-poor training resulting in an officer putting a round where it doesn't belong. When an ND by an officer put one into the back of the head of a suspect face down on the ground, they immediately starting screaming about those damn Glocks that they had just issued everybody. In than case they didn't dump everything, but it was still another example of blame our tools, not us or our training.

Ken

 

[SnakeEye]

I just cant believe that they can so easily dispose our tax dollars like that. (well sort of)
people should be up in arms over the throwing away of 37k dollars of tax money like so much tissue paper. theres nothing wrong with them, their perfectly functional ,and in some cases im sure unused..
sell them at a discount to some other law enforcement agency somewhere that doesnt have the funds. hell donate them for free for training to prevent this from happening in the future, anything but just throwing them away..

its rubs me wrong, oh so wrong..

 

[Weerd Beard]

I just cant believe that they can so easily dispose our tax dollars like that.

And there would be $20,000 worth of drapes on that tab as well if the Globe hadn't called him on it.

In Mass, our money spends MUCH better than anybody else's money!

Arrrr

-Weer'd