oldguy68
NES Member
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Be careful with M1 Garand stock markings.
- Thread starter oldguy68
- Start date
Theres lots of fakes, you can buy the stamps and IIRC theres a few stock refinishers out there with original stamps.
several stock restoration and refinishers often offer “stamping” as a extra.
The legit folks will make a “this is fake” stamp in the barrel channel.
generally the first give away to a fake is nice square and lined up lines. Especially at the height of war time production.
Im sure there where times when the inspectors took a litte more time trying to make them look pretty. Although it was just another tool that needed to get out the door , good enough was good enough ship it!
several stock restoration and refinishers often offer “stamping” as a extra.
The legit folks will make a “this is fake” stamp in the barrel channel.
generally the first give away to a fake is nice square and lined up lines. Especially at the height of war time production.
Im sure there where times when the inspectors took a litte more time trying to make them look pretty. Although it was just another tool that needed to get out the door , good enough was good enough ship it!
oldguy68
NES Member
Exactly, kind of like the "collector grade" one listed in the rifle classifieds on here now. Hint, hint...
Boy, you guys are slipping!![[rofl2]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/035.gif "ROFL2 [rofl2]")
Another pic of a real stamp. Notice the shape of the letter "G" and the Letter "S" compared to the photo in the classifieds.
Never mind the top border.
Boy, you guys are slipping!
Another pic of a real stamp. Notice the shape of the letter "G" and the Letter "S" compared to the photo in the classifieds.
Never mind the top border.
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Im not even sure what collector grade means?
i know cmp sold some "correct grades" and they do have unissued ones on cmp auction from time to time.
The pictures for the one in the classified are not very good. Im no professional but that gun does not look "original" the chamber appears to be parkerized or not "in the white" it does have lock bar sights which is correct for its time. It looks to he a clean rifle and i dont know the cut off points in production for stuff like single slot or cross gas cylinder lock s rews , forged or stamped trigger assemblies and such.
So many garands where "corrected" over the years its almost hard to tell . I know a group of older guys who buy their limits of M1 garands from the cmp and have "correcting " parties.
back all through the 2000s 4 guys bought 12 M1s per year and would part them out and assemble correct rifles as best they could all the while sorting the more valuable parts.
i know one of the guys - he said to me at one point. I have purchased over 200 garands from the cmp since 1998. More than half have beem corrected. i have a few that are true jems and others that are just ok. I only wish i kept more than 50 because i would be sitting on a nice retirement padding. o well
The fake stamps here
SA un issued -_guess this could be called collector grade
And a rebuild
i know cmp sold some "correct grades" and they do have unissued ones on cmp auction from time to time.
The pictures for the one in the classified are not very good. Im no professional but that gun does not look "original" the chamber appears to be parkerized or not "in the white" it does have lock bar sights which is correct for its time. It looks to he a clean rifle and i dont know the cut off points in production for stuff like single slot or cross gas cylinder lock s rews , forged or stamped trigger assemblies and such.
So many garands where "corrected" over the years its almost hard to tell . I know a group of older guys who buy their limits of M1 garands from the cmp and have "correcting " parties.
back all through the 2000s 4 guys bought 12 M1s per year and would part them out and assemble correct rifles as best they could all the while sorting the more valuable parts.
i know one of the guys - he said to me at one point. I have purchased over 200 garands from the cmp since 1998. More than half have beem corrected. i have a few that are true jems and others that are just ok. I only wish i kept more than 50 because i would be sitting on a nice retirement padding. o well
The fake stamps here
SA un issued -_guess this could be called collector grade
Civilian Marksmanship Program - Promoting firearms safety training!
M1 Garand Unissued SA 5836403 M1 Garand Unissued SA 5836403 This M1 Garand is manufactured bySpringfield Armory.Unissued since being manufactured with the original foil wrap on the triggerhousing. Rifle was not disassembled for photos or for parts identification. SOLD AS IS All photos can be viewd
cmpauction.thecmp.org
Civilian Marksmanship Program - Promoting firearms safety training!
M1 Garand 0-66 SA 3618393 M1 Garand
cmpauction.thecmp.org
oldguy68
NES Member
I just posted this thread as a warning to others.
So no one here goes posting what a great collector grade M1 they bought and find out the stock and possibly other parts are not "original" to this rifle.
There is no barrel throat reading either.
I would avoid this rifle for the lack of truth in the listing.
If you want an M1, buy one from the CMP or a known seller.
Any other listing has a high chance of being worth less than the seller was making it out to be.
You also avoid the problem of you knowingly selling a fake rifle.
The M1 Garand is like a German Luger in regards to fakes.
Own a Death's Head Luger. Probably a fake...
So no one here goes posting what a great collector grade M1 they bought and find out the stock and possibly other parts are not "original" to this rifle.
There is no barrel throat reading either.
I would avoid this rifle for the lack of truth in the listing.
If you want an M1, buy one from the CMP or a known seller.
Any other listing has a high chance of being worth less than the seller was making it out to be.
You also avoid the problem of you knowingly selling a fake rifle.
The M1 Garand is like a German Luger in regards to fakes.
Own a Death's Head Luger. Probably a fake...
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Have you messaged the seller directly? They may have no clue that it's a fake. Or proof that it's real.
Some people pass knowledge of it being something, because that's what they were sold on.
I appreciate this thread, because sharing knowledge of fakes is invaluable. I've bought some rifles that were something there were not. I shrug it off and enjoy them anyways.
Certainly that stamp is crisp enough to bear careful consideration, but looking at it closely I don't think it can 100% be determined a fake from the photo. I have a 1903 National Match made in 1933, with all the papers and provenance. Most of its stamps are in pretty good shape. No, it didn't go to war but it saw regular use in match shooting and still does today. Take a look at that circle-P proof on this particular M1 in the listing. That one is pretty deep and sharp too. Might just be a softer blank of walnut? Do you see folks faking the circle-P proof marks?
The seller did post pics of the op rod and bolt #'s, so those could be a way to do a quick check on matching potential. If those are off, you already know it's a typical mixmaster. If they line up, it's worth closer examination.
Since when is lack of a barrel throat reading a red flag? First time I've heard of that. He does give a muzzle reading.
I do think the 'top collector grade' statement is a bit of hyperbole and perhaps it's fair to say that folks should use caution when paying a premium for 'collector' quality. However, recommending to avoid the listing is uncalled for unless you have clear and irrefutable evidence it's a fake. Would have been better to simply reach out to the seller, ask questions, and if warranted request that the seller reword the listing. Considering all the ammo and accessories included, the price is not horrible. Compare against some of the ridiculous winning bids for CMP auctions.
I'm not totally convinced yet that it is a fake. The stock is a WW2 vintage as evidenced by the small ordnance wheel on the bottom of the grip. Barely visible in his pics but its there and somewhat worn. The inspector stamp does look almost too clean but I believe I read there were more than one stamp used during manufacture and they have a slight difference. It could be the stamp was added to a refinished stock that perhaps had one already but was lost in the refinish process. I know of a couple of experts that could say for sure, and I certainly would do so before declaring this is a fake and the poster is trying to defraud people. For all we know, it was sold to him as such and he is just parroting what he was told when he bought it.
oldguy68
NES Member
SA/GAW | The M1 Garand
Look the bottom of his letter "S" and how it is the same size as the top part of the letter.
Next look at his letter "G" and compare it to the ones on the sight listed above.
Only reason I mentioned the throat reading was he left it out.
Most people buying a Collector grade would want to know what it as.
I hope a potential buyer posts a picture of those stock markings over at the CMP Forum before they purchase that rifle.
That stock would be worth a pretty sum if it were the real thing.
Look the bottom of his letter "S" and how it is the same size as the top part of the letter.
Next look at his letter "G" and compare it to the ones on the sight listed above.
Only reason I mentioned the throat reading was he left it out.
Most people buying a Collector grade would want to know what it as.
I hope a potential buyer posts a picture of those stock markings over at the CMP Forum before they purchase that rifle.
That stock would be worth a pretty sum if it were the real thing.
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Still not seeing a 'gotcha' moment here regarding that cartouche.
Here's one that was considered a fake:
Clearly stamped on top of the finish, which is the most obvious give-away. Also look at the top of the 'A'. Now look at the 'A' for the classified listing and the ones you used as a reference. They match. The legit stamps have a subtle flat spot at the top of the A, while the fakes come to a point. Looking at it more closely and comparing against a typical fake, the cartouche on the classifieds M1 looks legit.
![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
It's inspector stamp indicates it is an original stock from Springfield armory. That's his initials. The vast majority of M1s have rearsenalled GI stocks, or new wood from the cmp. All are nice. But original wood to the rifle is more valuable.
What are you saying is different about the G. Is it the width in relationship to it's height? Generally speaking I'm suspicious of any in this nice of shape...
JFC you guys are getting hung up on the collector grade comment. Here's part of the listing, lets parse it shall we?
"As far as I can tell it has all original Springfield parts. (OK this says original parts, that does not necessarily correct parts for the receiver, simply that they are not repro springfield parts) The muzzle measures a 1, stock has all original SA cartouches which are crisp and clean (that's definitive, no parsing that one); stock is in excellent condition and contains original WWII era cleaning kit. This garand is easily a top collector garand." (THIS DOES NOT MENTION CMP NOR ANY CMP GRADE, SIMPLY ITS A 'COLLECTOR')
"As far as I can tell it has all original Springfield parts. (OK this says original parts, that does not necessarily correct parts for the receiver, simply that they are not repro springfield parts) The muzzle measures a 1, stock has all original SA cartouches which are crisp and clean (that's definitive, no parsing that one); stock is in excellent condition and contains original WWII era cleaning kit. This garand is easily a top collector garand." (THIS DOES NOT MENTION CMP NOR ANY CMP GRADE, SIMPLY ITS A 'COLLECTOR')
True you can't have an original non-correct rifle but I think you can have original parts that are not necessarily correct to the rifle since repro parts exist (check Numrich). I think its different from saying the rifle is all original but it is a fine line certainly.
Garands can be a real mess since they did not have indivual parts ID to serial number
You can only go on what parts could be correct for that serial range .
This gets even crazier when you find out parts are shipped to and fro so manufactures could get the guns out.
M1 carbines took this to greater extremes with even more sub contractors!
Collecting is a term that can be used loosely . Im a shooting collector. I just want them to represent what they where so correct parts , reproductions and such are of no concern
Much like collectors I know just want the gun as close to original as possible even if its not in pristine condition .
If I miss read the M1 want ad for “Collector grade “ Im sorry .
Yeah take away the going rate for ammo, clips, bandoleers and such the rifle cost comes down and with your average CMP service grade showing up here for $1200+ on a flip......
Well be sure of what your buying
its funny to see such nice solid cartouches ad so many dont have solid strikes at the top edge. Makes you go Hmmmm
oldguy68
NES Member
The thin and tallness between a known real cartouche and how short and fatter his "G" is.
His "S" is suspicious, because a real cartouche is smaller at the top of the "S" and larger at the bottom of the "S".
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Thanks. Always learning. I'm now going to have to dig my GAW cartouched stock out of my safe for your review!
Been through the arsenal one, couple , few times. Could end up with any stock on it.
My first cmp M1 was a winchester with a HRA stock.
Few years later I picked up. 1942 field grade SA which came with a beat up winchester GHD stock. I did not see the stamps myself until I brought it to a friend to look at . He spotted them so, so faint and really not even stamped into the wood anymore.
I later sold that stock to someone who really wanted it for their win
My first cmp M1 was a winchester with a HRA stock.
Few years later I picked up. 1942 field grade SA which came with a beat up winchester GHD stock. I did not see the stamps myself until I brought it to a friend to look at . He spotted them so, so faint and really not even stamped into the wood anymore.
I later sold that stock to someone who really wanted it for their win
oldguy68
NES Member
Nick, you can see a faint what looks like a square border to the left of your canon stamp.
Look at how your canon stamp is defined.
The inspector stamp is where it's at, value wise.
That is why it is so often falsified.
Look at how your canon stamp is defined.
The inspector stamp is where it's at, value wise.
That is why it is so often falsified.
