ATF Rules on establishing residency

[CrackPot]

Are you saying the ATF rules for dual residency are not in the favor of a NH dual resident who has a non drivers ID?

I’m saying stop talking about NH residency rules in the same sentence as atf residency rules since they have no relationship with one another. They may coincidentally give the same answer sometimes but that does not matter. All that matters for gun purchases are atf rules and your local FFLs willingness to follow said rules.

 

[KBCraig]

With the governor signing HB 1264 into law, NH will not be able to issue an ID card to anyone whose "principal place of physical presence to the exclusion of all others" is not NH.

I know a couple of guys who work internationally. They own homes in NH, and that's where their families live and their children go to school, but they themselves spend maybe 60 days a year in the state. This bill was aimed at voter residency, but there will be unintended consequences.

 

[Qwikdraw45]

The rule is "government document". Is your water bill through a municipality, or a private water company? That might be a determining factor. Just a thought.

 

[powerman]

The real ID is problematic, since you only can have one anywhere. And the one can be a drivers license or id
Case in point. I went to get just an id in Florida, they changed there rules and only issue real ids.
If I got a real id (non dl) it would invalidate my mass dl according to Florida in the system so if I did get florida id it I wouldn't even have a drivers license anywhere. It appears states are moving that way.
Luckily Florida ffls take tax bill, and I use my mass dl for id, and im good to go.

 

[Glockster30]

I thought I understood the issue of dual residency until I read this thread. For NH, there are 3 options available to obtain a "Non-Driver Identification Card" ("that is non-compliant with the federal REAL ID Act,..."). Each of the 3 options has multiple choices to satisfy each option. I'll stick with the easier documents to satisfy the options.

For option #1. An original birth certificate and/or a passport. For option #2. A Social Security card. For option #3. Property Tax (real estate) bill for the current year at the address provided (or, it can be a lease, rental agreement, or deed, signed by both parties).

https://www.nh.gov/safety/divisions...ication-residency-uscitizen-non-compliant.pdf

To meet ATF dual residency requirement, I'll just add Example 2.: Example 2. A is a U.S. citizen and maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y. This comes from p. 39 in the attachment link.

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/atf-p-5300-4pdf/download

I know that the OP asked about VT, but this appears to have morphed into a NH thread. So, it appears that satisfying both NH and ATF rules allows one to purchase a handgun in NH, correct?

 

[granitestater]

long time lurker first post.... I don't understand all of this.... if some one lives in Massachusetts and also owns a home in Vermont like the OP or New Hampshire like others or even Florida. Why the resistance to giving up the Mass drivers license? Your car insurance will probably be lower and you can buy any gun you want to with out hassle. Please enlighten me. Thank you.

 

[Qwikdraw45]

long time lurker first post.... I don't understand all of this.... if some one lives in Massachusetts and also owns a home in Vermont like the OP or New Hampshire like others or even Florida. Why the resistance to giving up the Mass drivers license? Your car insurance will probably be lower and you can buy any gun you want to with out hassle. Please enlighten me. Thank you.

Your full time job might be in MA, and it might be a job that requires you to have a MA driver's license. Plus, if you claim "Florida residency" for example, and have an accident in MA, the insurance co. might start questioning what you were doing there (yes, you could be on vacation, but an investigator might find out that you are actually working there).

 

[Noreaster]

long time lurker first post.... I don't understand all of this.... if some one lives in Massachusetts and also owns a home in Vermont like the OP or New Hampshire like others or even Florida. Why the resistance to giving up the Mass drivers license? Your car insurance will probably be lower and you can buy any gun you want to with out hassle. Please enlighten me. Thank you.

The issue of picking up my pistol will be easily fixed with the tax bill and is much less of an inconvenience than having to go to Chelsea to get a non resident LTC, which i believe will then be restricted. Could have tax implications as well as voting issues (although my votes may count more in VT than in MA). Who knows what else is tied into the DMV.

 

[Boston4567]

long time lurker first post.... I don't understand all of this.... if some one lives in Massachusetts and also owns a home in Vermont like the OP or New Hampshire like others or even Florida. Why the resistance to giving up the Mass drivers license? Your car insurance will probably be lower and you can buy any gun you want to with out hassle. Please enlighten me. Thank you.

It's unlawful to not have an MA DL if your permanent, primary place of residence is MA. Any cars that you keep here also must be registered with MA plates. MA wants your money.

 

[CrackPot]

I know that the OP asked about VT, but this appears to have morphed into a NH thread. So, it appears that satisfying both NH and ATF rules allows one to purchase a handgun in NH, correct?

Satisfying ATF residency is required to purchase a handgun. NH requirements are irrelevant.

 

[drgrant]

With the governor signing HB 1264 into law, NH will not be able to issue an ID card to anyone whose "principal place of physical presence to the exclusion of all others" is not NH.

I know a couple of guys who work internationally. They own homes in NH, and that's where their families live and their children go to school, but they themselves spend maybe 60 days a year in the state. This bill was aimed at voter residency, but there will be unintended consequences.

Maybe... depending on how it is actually enforced or implemented.

I'm thinking that, to some respect, this is going to be much like the marajuana question on the 4473. Unless they come up with some multi pronged test to establish
residency, then it's mostly just noise/fluff/decoration.

-Mike

 

[powerman]

It's unlawful to not have an MA DL if your permanent, primary place of residence is MA

yes, but how does Mass know what your "permanent, primary Place is" at that moment. one could be moving or changing residences anytime.
What if your a snow bird, you happen to stay 6 months and a day one year in FLA, and only 5 months 30 days in mass.
or have three places and stay 4 months each?

You can change your mind any time. Just say to yourself this is my primary place of residence when you get there, then I guess you have 30days to get your license in you new place of residence.
For tax purposes you need to wait till the end of the year to figure it out.

feds says it's your intent. are you a free man or not?

 

[drgrant]

It's unlawful to not have an MA DL if your permanent, primary place of residence is MA. Any cars that you keep here also must be registered with MA plates. MA wants your money.

The DL thing ? meh. They tend to get more pissy about car registration though, principal garaging and all that bullshit. Doesn't take a rocket scientist though to
figure out how to safely do whatever you need to do. Particularly if you actually have two residences.

-Mike

 

[Asaltweapon]

Any cars that you keep here also must be registered with MA plates.

Not 100% true. If you have a multi car household you may use a secondary address and plate(s) providing at least one car is registered and insured in MA.

I know a guy doing it and know the cop who wanted to right him up on it and couldn't. Cop is pretty cool, guy is an A hole and would deserve it.

 

[Boston4567]

yes, but how does Mass know what your "permanent, primary Place is" at that moment. one could be moving or changing residences anytime.
What if your a snow bird, you happen to stay 6 months and a day one year in FLA, and only 5 months 30 days in mass.
or have three places and stay 4 months each?

You can change your mind any time. Just say to yourself this is my primary place of residence when you get there, then I guess you have 30days to get your license in you new place of residence.
For tax purposes you need to wait till the end of the year to figure it out.

feds says it's your intent. are you a free man or not?

Obviously MA doesn't know immediately, but over the long term out-of-state plates and out-of-state DLs may get noticed or stick out, and that can come off as sketchy at best. Cop pulls you over for speeding, you need to register to vote, or you get into an accident and insurance starts asking questions... You can use your imagination to come up with a panoply of situations where you look like a sketchball for having a VT DL/plates while living/working/raising a family in MA.

You'd probably be fine, at least from a legal perspective... but whether it's worth it depends on your tolerance for such things. I'd just rather have the MA plates/license/insurance and pay the extra bit of money so I can blend in with the crowd and not look suspicious. There are things worth pushing the legal limits on, I'd rather reserve my energy for those things.

 

[granitestater]

You have all raised some interesting reasons why the OP should keep his Mass DL. However, with respect to Florida, a person may file a declaration of domicile as follows:

http://www.miami-dadeclerk.com/property_recorder_domicile.asp

Florida Statute §222.17 states that a person can show intent to maintain a Florida residence as a permanent home by filing a sworn Declaration of Domicile with the clerk of the circuit court.
The application is available online , at any of the district courts or at the County Recorder's Office. Click the form, a person does not need to spend a certain number of days in Florida. They only need to obtain a Florida drivers license and register to vote to be a legal Florida resident. I am not sure that Mass can stop that. Of course a person working in Mass even as non resident must pay mass income tax, but that is it.

or from another county:

FAQ: Recording: Declaration of Domicile - Clerk & Comptroller, Palm Beach County
https://www.mypalmbeachclerk.com/faq/domicile.aspx
Now, the OP replied and I understand his reasons. They make sense for his particular situtation. However, for all who are falling all over themselves to keep a Mass DL even if they have a home elsewhere it is not required. The Florida declaration of domicile was instituted back when Florida had an intangibles tax (which has since been repealed) but would cost folks far less than paying resident income taxes in NY or NJ. People would file the form and pay Florida instead of high tax northeastern states. Since that intangibles tax was repealed, a Florida residence is even more valuable.

 

[powerman]

You'd probably be fine, at least from a legal perspective... but whether it's worth it depends on your tolerance for such things. I'd just rather have the MA plates/license/insurance and pay the extra bit of money so I can blend in with the crowd and not look suspicious. There are things worth pushing the legal limits on, I'd rather reserve my energy for those things.

Agree better to blend in and be a native.

That's why I have a problem with states forcing you to have a DL in the state, if you register a car in that state. (mass was trying to do this at one point. drunk driving issue, don't know if they did anything.)
You may have cars, boats, trailers registered in multiple states and some here even different countries.

I do this base on "primarily" where those vehicles will be used or where the vehicles "primarily" reside.

There's that word "primarily" again,

just to be clear, that in my opinion, has no bearing on the residency requirements for purchase of Firearms.

 

[powerman]

You have all raised some interesting reasons why the OP should keep his Mass DL. However, with respect to Florida, a person may file a declaration of domicile as follows:

http://www.miami-dadeclerk.com/property_recorder_domicile.asp

Florida Statute §222.17 states that a person can show intent to maintain a Florida residence as a permanent home by filing a sworn Declaration of Domicile with the clerk of the circuit court.
The application is available online , at any of the district courts or at the County Recorder's Office. Click the form, a person does not need to spend a certain number of days in Florida. They only need to obtain a Florida drivers license and register to vote to be a legal Florida resident. I am not sure that Mass can stop that. Of course a person working in Mass even as non resident must pay mass income tax, but that is it.

or from another county:

FAQ: Recording: Declaration of Domicile - Clerk & Comptroller, Palm Beach County
Now, the OP replied and I understand his reasons. They make sense for his particular situtation. However, for all who are falling all over themselves to keep a Mass DL even if they have a home elsewhere it is not required. The Florida declaration of domicile was instituted back when Florida had an intangibles tax (which has since been repealed) but would cost folks far less than paying resident income taxes in NY or NJ. People would file the form and pay Florida instead of high tax northeastern states. Since that intangibles tax was repealed, a Florida residence is even more valuable.

Be careful if you do that, they may assume for tax purposes that your looking for the property tax discount, Florida will go after you with a vengeance if your trying to cheat the taxes.

 

[Boston4567]

You have all raised some interesting reasons why the OP should keep his Mass DL. However, with respect to Florida, a person may file a declaration of domicile as follows:

http://www.miami-dadeclerk.com/property_recorder_domicile.asp

Florida Statute §222.17 states that a person can show intent to maintain a Florida residence as a permanent home by filing a sworn Declaration of Domicile with the clerk of the circuit court.
The application is available online , at any of the district courts or at the County Recorder's Office. Click the form, a person does not need to spend a certain number of days in Florida. They only need to obtain a Florida drivers license and register to vote to be a legal Florida resident. I am not sure that Mass can stop that. Of course a person working in Mass even as non resident must pay mass income tax, but that is it.

or from another county:

FAQ: Recording: Declaration of Domicile - Clerk & Comptroller, Palm Beach County
Now, the OP replied and I understand his reasons. They make sense for his particular situtation. However, for all who are falling all over themselves to keep a Mass DL even if they have a home elsewhere it is not required. The Florida declaration of domicile was instituted back when Florida had an intangibles tax (which has since been repealed) but would cost folks far less than paying resident income taxes in NY or NJ. People would file the form and pay Florida instead of high tax northeastern states. Since that intangibles tax was repealed, a Florida residence is even more valuable.

I'm not totally sure what problem you're trying to solve. The fees for an FL drivers license are comparable to an MA license, and trivial regardless.

Based on your last paragraph, it sounds like what you're suggesting is state income tax evasion. State revenue departments don't care about your driver's license or declaration of domicile or anything else. That piece of paper from a FL court is toilet paper to the MA DOR.

If you live or work in a state with high income taxes and try to wiggle around it by changing residency on paper, you're at significant risk of criminal prosecution, and it's not just an idle or theoretical risk. I'd advise caution.

 

[Noreaster]

I found out the bills are being printed this week. So emailed them to send me a PDF copy.

And the bill is in the former owners name.......

A few run arounds to different people and a some phone tag..... I got it fixed. I was lucky, she works from 9 - 3 M-Tu-W. LOL

 

[Keeper]

Since, this seems to be the most recent thread on dual residency, what happens if you want to move a handgun or other purchase to the other state? Do you find an FFL and transfer it to yourself?

 

[Qwikdraw45]

Since, this seems to be the most recent thread on dual residency, what happens if you want to move a handgun or other purchase to the other state? Do you find an FFL and transfer it to yourself?

Nope, you just bring it with you to your new/other residence. Just be sure to comply with FOPA while transporting it, and follow whatever rules in both states (i.e. storage, licensing, registration, whatever).

 

[NFD9]

Nope, you just bring it with you to your new/other residence. Just be sure to comply with FOPA while transporting it, and follow whatever rules in both states (i.e. storage, licensing, registration, whatever).

Not true ...if your other residence happens to be NY.
NY law requires that all handgun serial numbers be listed on your CCW permit before you can possess the weapon...even between husband and wife.
Plus...all handgun transfers must go thru an FFL.
So... (in NY) a handgun (you already own) must be shipped to a NY FFL, listed on your permit (by the county sheriffs office), then transferred to you before you can posses it in NY.

 

[Qwikdraw45]

and follow whatever rules in both states (i.e. storage, licensing, registration, whatever).

Not true ...if your other residence happens to be NY.
NY law requires that all handgun serial numbers be listed on your CCW permit before you can possess the weapon...even between husband and wife.
Plus...all handgun transfers must go thru an FFL.
So... (in NY) a handgun (you already own) must be shipped to a NY FFL, listed on your permit (by the county sheriffs office), then transferred to you before you can posses it in NY.

 

[Boston4567]

Not true ...if your other residence happens to be NY.
NY law requires that all handgun serial numbers be listed on your CCW permit before you can possess the weapon...even between husband and wife.
Plus...all handgun transfers must go thru an FFL.
So... (in NY) a handgun (you already own) must be shipped to a NY FFL, listed on your permit (by the county sheriffs office), then transferred to you before you can posses it in NY.

Gross. Pretty amazing how NY somehow makes MA look good in comparison

 

[KBCraig]

Gross. Pretty amazing how NY somehow makes MA look good in comparison

There's NY, which is bad enough, and then there's NYC, which is even worse. They go so far as to ban removing a licensed handgun by taking it out of state -- if you're licensed to possess a handgun in NYC, you have to always account for it being in NYC.*

(*Based on my recollection of this issue from earlier reading when NYC banned magazines larger than 7 rounds.)

 

[drgrant]

IIRC they curb stomped dual residence for NYpp's... so you need to dog and pony show as a primary NY resident to get a pistol permit now. There was a judge that used to cater to dual residents but they clamped on him....

-Mike

 

[NFD9]

IIRC they curb stomped dual residence for NYpp's... so you need to dog and pony show as a primary NY resident to get a pistol permit now. There was a judge that used to cater to dual residents but they clamped on him....

-Mike

Mike,
Your memory is correct about that judge getting "clamped", but in 2013 the NYSC made it easier for PT residents...

Osterweil v. Bartlett – CourtListener.com

On October 15, 2013, the New York Court of Appeals answered the certified question in the affirmative.
In Osterweil v. Bartlett, – NY3d –,
the Court held that “Penal Law § 400.00(3)(a) does not preclude an individual who owns a part-time residence in New York but makes his permanent domicile in another state from applying for a New York handgun license.”

And in the county (Herkimer) my PT residence is in the judge issues un-resticted in almost all cases.

 

[drgrant]

Good to know they got beat back on that whole affair. It's stupid for people to have to "double game" the system to get a license they were
already qualified for.

-Mike

 

[Rob Boudrie]

IIRC they curb stomped dual residence for NYpp's... so you need to dog and pony show as a primary NY resident to get a pistol permit now. There was a judge that used to cater to dual residents but they clamped on him....

The judge catered to non-NY residents as well as Canadians, eh?. I had one from (I think 89-99). Judge Willard Cass, Chautauqua County. Shut down by advice from the county law department.