ATF Rules on establishing residency

[JoseyWales]

To get a non driver ID in NH, there is a defined set of docs you need to present to the DMV and you can get either a RealID compliant ID or a non-compliant ID. The requirements are pretty similar except that for the RealID compliant ID you essentially need an extra doc. The easiest route (IMO) is to get a non compliant ID, for which you will need a US passport, a SSN card and either a propert tax bill or a utility bill that says “for service at” your NH property. If you want RealID compliant, then you would need both the property tax bill and the utility bill.

I have yet to do this but it may be helpful to be able to show to an FFL. That said, I understand that some FFLs will just take the tax and/or utility bill. But I can see the benefit to being able to whip out a state ID card which always looks more official and robust for proving residency.

On the bottom of the non-compliant application are the words: "TRANSFERRING FROM ANOTHER STATE: The applicant’s out-of-state Driver License must be relinquished (RSA 263:4)." https://www.nh.gov/safety/divisions...ication-residency-uscitizen-non-compliant.pdf

I don't know if the word "transferring" has a detailed legalese meaning but I, a MA DL holder/worker/voter, tried to get a NH non-driving ID last week. When I gave her my application with passport, NH tax bill, and MA driver license, she then asked me, "Do you really want to relinquish your MA license to drive?" I took back my application and said let me think about it.

I don't know if I instead were to supply my SSN card (instead of my MA DL) if they would issue me a the non-driving ID and then also canceled my MA DL behind the scenes?

Don't conflate the NH residency requirements with the ATF dual residency requirements. If NH gives you the non-driver's ID card b/c you represent that you are a resident of NH, you should be good as far as ATF is concerned. As noted above, some FFLs will just accept a copy of your NH property tax bill. As I noted above, I haven't tried to get a NH non-driver ID so maybe they will require that you not have a driver's license from any other state.

It looks like they require you that not have one from another state.

 

[Boston4567]

On the bottom of the non-compliant application are the words: "TRANSFERRING FROM ANOTHER STATE: The applicant’s out-of-state Driver License must be relinquished (RSA 263:4)." https://www.nh.gov/safety/divisions...ication-residency-uscitizen-non-compliant.pdf

I don't know if the word "transferring" has a detailed legalese meaning but I, a MA DL holder/worker/voter, tried to get a NH non-driving ID last week. When I gave her my application with passport, NH tax bill, and MA driver license, she then asked me, "Do you really want to relinquish your MA license to drive?" I took back my application and said let me think about it.

I don't know if I instead were to supply my SSN card (instead of my MA DL) if they would issue me a the non-driving ID and then also canceled my MA DL behind the scenes?



It looks like they require you that not have one from another state.

Rookie mistake. Don't give them your MA driver's license, or even acknowledge that you have one. The NH DMV can't just cancel your MA driver's license. And if you look up that RSA, they don't have the legal right to do so (that only applies to DLs, not IDs): Section 263:4 Driver Limited to One License.

 

[garandman]

So I bought a rifle at a NH store by showing them my RE tax bill.

Would private sellers accept that as proof, do you think? There are one or two guns FS In NH I’m interested in. I can buy them in MA as well, it’s more about convenience.

 

[atmay]

So I bought a rifle at a NH store by showing them my RE tax bill.

Would private sellers accept that as proof, do you think? There are one or two guns FS In NH I’m interested in. I can buy them in MA as well, it’s more about convenience.

I can’t see any reason why it wouldn’t be legal, but if the seller doesn’t already understand the way the law works, you’re probably in for one hell of a time trying to convince them.

 

[Boston4567]

So I bought a rifle at a NH store by showing them my RE tax bill.

Would private sellers accept that as proof, do you think? There are one or two guns FS In NH I’m interested in. I can buy them in MA as well, it’s more about convenience.

Not sure if you're looking at buying long guns or handguns, but under RSA 159:14, to buy a handgun privately in NH you would need to know the seller personally, or have a NH P&R license. So in that case it's irrelevant.

 

[atmay]

Not sure if you're looking at buying long guns or handguns, but under RSA 159:14, to buy a handgun privately in NH you would need to know the seller personally, or have a NH P&R license. So in that case it's irrelevant.

Is there any case law or regulatory guidance on what constitutes “personally known”?

Once you’ve met someone, you know them.....

 

[Len-2A Training]

Not sure if you're looking at buying long guns or handguns, but under RSA 159:14, to buy a handgun privately in NH you would need to know the seller personally, or have a NH P&R license. So in that case it's irrelevant.

Not really, lots of MA (full-time) residents have NR NH P&R Licenses.

 

[Boston4567]

Not really, lots of MA (full-time) residents have NR NH P&R Licenses.

The way I look at it, if I'm a NH resident selling a handgun, I'm not selling it to an MA resident with a non-resident NH P&R permit regardless of whether you have property tax docs from NH.

At that point you're showing me clear evidence you're not a NH resident (NH P&R license with "NON-RESIDENT" in big, red, all-caps lettering) along with an unverifiable, easy-to-forge property tax doc on 8 1/2" by 11" paper.

Way too easy to imagine ATF going full retard if the gun gets used for wrongdoing. But maybe others in NH would feel otherwise.

 

[atmay]

The way I look at it, if I'm a NH resident selling a handgun, I'm not selling it to an MA resident with a non-resident NH P&R permit regardless of whether you have property tax docs from NH.

At that point you're showing me clear evidence you're not a NH resident (NH P&R license with "NON-RESIDENT" in big, red, all-caps lettering) along with an unverifiable, easy-to-forge property tax doc on 8 1/2" by 11" paper.

Way too easy to imagine ATF going full retard if the gun gets used for wrongdoing. But maybe others in NH would feel otherwise.

Don’t forget that the definition of “resident” as it applies to P&Rs, is drastically different than the definition as it pertains to the provisions of GCA68.

 

[drgrant]

The way I look at it, if I'm a NH resident selling a handgun, I'm not selling it to an MA resident with a non-resident NH P&R permit regardless of whether you have property tax docs from NH.

At that point you're showing me clear evidence you're not a NH resident (NH P&R license with "NON-RESIDENT" in big, red, all-caps lettering) along with an unverifiable, easy-to-forge property tax doc on 8 1/2" by 11" paper.

Everything can be forged, including that silly piece of tissue paper the guy with the tax bill could easily go get from his NH police department after filling out a
1 page form and dropping 10? bucks or whatever it is.

Way too easy to imagine ATF going full retard if the gun gets used for wrongdoing. But maybe others in NH would feel otherwise.

This isn't an "ATF thing" we've already beaten that to death in this thread.

-Mike

 

[Asaltweapon]

The way I look at it, if I'm a NH resident selling a handgun, I'm not selling it to an MA resident with a non-resident NH P&R permit regardless of whether you have property tax docs from NH.

At that point you're showing me clear evidence you're not a NH resident (NH P&R license with "NON-RESIDENT" in big, red, all-caps lettering) along with an unverifiable, easy-to-forge property tax doc on 8 1/2" by 11" paper.

Way too easy to imagine ATF going full retard if the gun gets used for wrongdoing. But maybe others in NH would feel otherwise.

You're either a legal resident of a state or not as it pertains to BATFE. How does a handgun change this?

 

[Boston4567]

Don’t forget that the definition of “resident” as it applies to P&Rs, is drastically different than the definition as it pertains to the provisions of GCA68.

Everything can be forged, including that silly piece of tissue paper the guy with the tax bill could easily go get from his NH police department after filling out a
1 page form and dropping 10? bucks or whatever it is.

This isn't an "ATF thing" we've already beaten that to death in this thread.

-Mike

You're either a legal resident of a state or not as it pertains to BATFE. How does a handgun change this?

Lots of separate issues getting mixed up here. Let me clarify:

1. If you're privately selling a handgun to a stranger in NH, under NH law they need a P&R.
   
   
2. Yes, it's quite possible to have a buyer that has an NR P&R but meets the ATF definition of resident, and the sale would be 100% legal in this scenario.
   
   
3. Nonetheless, IMHO, a prudent NH seller may/should be wary of selling a handgun to a stranger with a NH non-resident P&R, because...
   
   
4. If the gun is used for wrongdoing, "NON-RESIDENT" in big red letters on the P&R could very easily be spun in a federal court to be "reasonable cause to believe [the buyer] does not reside in the State in which the transferor resides", 18 USC 922(a)(5).

 

[drgrant]

1. If the gun is used for wrongdoing, "NON-RESIDENT" in big red letters on the P&R could very easily be spun in a federal court to be "reasonable cause to believe [the buyer] does not reside in the State in which the transferor resides", 18 USC 922(a)(5).

That's pretty thin to put it mildly, particularly given that we've already established that for ATF standards the tax bill etc thing is viable for showing residency. The existence of the "NR PR license" doesn't magically nullify any of the criteria that the person used to establish residency. BATFE essentially "estops" itself with its own guidance in the case of this attempt at prosecution, IMHO there's no way in hell they would ever attempt it, under those circumstances.

-Mike

 

[Boston4567]

That's pretty thin to put it mildly, particularly given that we've already established that for ATF standards the tax bill etc thing is viable for showing residency. The existence of the "NR PR license" doesn't magically nullify any of the criteria that the person used to establish residency. BATFE essentially "estops" itself with its own guidance in the case of this attempt at prosecution, IMHO there's no way in hell they would ever attempt it, under those circumstances.

-Mike

I agree they wouldn't attempt prosecution under ordinary circumstances. But it doesn't take much to imagine a scenario that's not ordinary.

MA resident has ERPO against him/is denied LTC under suitability/is a PP under MA law but not NH law, has NH non-resident P&R, buys gun privately in NH, goes on shooting spree in MA. Public wants a scapegoat.

Not all that hard to imagine them going full retard on the private seller, especially if the buyer actually didn't have property in NH and just forged the property tax doc. Then they get to say you ignored the big red letters on the official laminated state license in favor of a sketchy 8 1/2" x 11" Xerox.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I agree they wouldn't attempt prosecution under ordinary circumstances. But it doesn't take much to imagine a scenario that's not ordinary.

MA resident has ERPO against him/is denied LTC under suitability/is a PP under MA law but not NH law, has NH non-resident P&R, buys gun privately in NH, goes on shooting spree in MA. Public wants a scapegoat.

Not all that hard to imagine them going full retard on the private seller, especially if the buyer actually didn't have property in NH and just forged the property tax doc. Then they get to say you ignored the big red letters on the official laminated state license in favor of a sketchy 8 1/2" x 11" Xerox.

OK, I'll use myself as an example here. I have a deed for a NH house, I have an electric bill from Eversource . . . that meets BATFE requirements . . . and I have a NH NR P/R because I haven't made the trip to the PD yet and still have a MA DL so unsure if they would even issue the NR Resident P/R.

Now as long as I can hit the internet, I could bring up the deed on my phone (proof that a piece of paper isn't forged). Realize that even if someone has a NH DL and NH Resident P/R and buy that gun from you and then go down to MA (where their girlfriend lives) and shoots up the place, the media will indeed be all over your ass! No way around this other than to never sell a gun. Media loves scapegoats. Feds wouldn't do anything as the transfer was perfectly legal, I doubt that a NH DA would do anything either for the same reason.

You are always free to deal with only those you want to deal with whether you are a private party or a FFL if you can articulate a non-discriminatory (under law) reason to do so. I've walked away from potential or real clients when i got that uncomfortable feeling in the pit of my stomach, so I do understand in those sort of circumstances.

 

[Racenet]

Build the wall!

 

[Boston4567]

You are always free to deal with only those you want to deal with whether you are a private party or a FFL if you can articulate a non-discriminatory (under law) reason to do so. I've walked away from potential or real clients when i got that uncomfortable feeling in the pit of my stomach, so I do understand in those sort of circumstances.

That's all I'm really getting at here. The scenario you're describing, where the seller sees some evidence of out of state residence in the NR P&R, but then can externally verify property ownership online, is fine. If I saw an NR P&R, that's going to give me some pause about making a sale because of 18 USC 922(a)(5), as I think it should for a prudent person. I'd say it creates a rebuttable presumption against the sale. If the buyer shows me something meaningful that proves to me they're really a property owner, we're good to go.

 

[garandman]

I have a NR P&R. And an original tax bill, and all the utility bills you want. So would someone advertising sell to me, or not?

 

[atmay]

I have a NR P&R. And an original tax bill, and all the utility bills you want. So would someone advertising sell to me, or not?

Could? Absolutely.

Would? You’ll have to ask each, individually.

 

[Racenet]

I have a NR P&R. And an original tax bill, and all the utility bills you want. So would someone advertising sell to me, or not?

As a private seller, I would not sell to you in a face to face, period.

 

[garandman]

As a private seller, I would not sell to you in a face to face, period.

I have a paper bag....

If that’s a representative attitude for NH gun owners I’ll have to stick to the dealer, I guess.

 

[Asaltweapon]

As a private seller, I would not sell to you in a face to face, period.

Do tell please.

With Constitutional Carry one does not even need a P&R license if I understand correctly.

 

[atmay]

Do tell please.

With Constitutional Carry one does not even need a P&R license if I understand correctly.

The law regarding private sales of handguns specifically calls out a P&R, if the buyer isn’t “personally known” to the seller.

 

[drgrant]

I have a NR P&R. And an original tax bill, and all the utility bills you want. So would someone advertising sell to me, or not?

Some probably wouldn't, because they can't be bothered to understand the laws. If they balk you could offer to meet them at a willing FFL and and pay the
transfer. There's a whole bunch of others that would probably do it and not even look at "papers" because they just don't care.

-Mike

 

[Asaltweapon]

The law regarding private sales of handguns specifically calls out a P&R, if the buyer isn’t “personally known” to the seller.

Just wondering how that works with CC.

 

[drgrant]

Just wondering how that works with CC.

It doesn't. If you're not personally known to the seller, they're not supposed to sell to you. The P&R license is the only "out" from that
requirement. Well, there's another out, which is just go to an NH dealer and pay a transfer...

-Mike

 

[kevin9]

As a private seller, I would not sell to you in a face to face, period.

Law says one may, not must. Your gun, your choice. Someone else's gun, their choice.

 

[Len-2A Training]

That's all I'm really getting at here. The scenario you're describing, where the seller sees some evidence of out of state residence in the NR P&R, but then can externally verify property ownership online, is fine. If I saw an NR P&R, that's going to give me some pause about making a sale because of 18 USC 922(a)(5), as I think it should for a prudent person. I'd say it creates a rebuttable presumption against the sale. If the buyer shows me something meaningful that proves to me they're really a property owner, we're good to go.

Considering that all MA and NH deeds are online, accessible to anyone with internet capability . . . and most RE assessment data (owner) is also online for anyone to see, proof "on the move" is really easy to produce without worry about forged papers.

 

[Racenet]

Law says one may, not must. Your gun, your choice. Someone else's gun, their choice.

By all means, go crazy. It is quite simple for me. For a face to face purchase, if you are not a resident or if any type of ID/paperwork indicates you are in any way from MA, it isn't happening. Legal or not. Go deal with an FFL.

 

[Racenet]

Do tell please.

With Constitutional Carry one does not even need a P&R license if I understand correctly.

The P&R has nothing to do with it. It's a Mass thing.