ATF Rules on establishing residency

[Dennis in MA]

1. I have houses in MA and MA. Dammit my dumb ass.

2. This still confounds me. You are trying to prove residency in another state, yet don't want a DL because you are maintaining residence in THIS state. WTF is the difference??? DMV and IRS databases aren't linked. Am I missing something???

 

[drgrant]

1. I have houses in MA and MA. Dammit my dumb ass.

2. This still confounds me. You are trying to prove residency in another state, yet don't want a DL because you are maintaining residence in THIS state. WTF is the difference??? DMV and IRS databases aren't linked. Am I missing something???

Because when you get a DL in another state you have to forfeit your DL in the original state. That causes lots of problems.

Easily fixed by just getting a state ID in the second state. (which isn't usually contingent on a drivers license etc. )

-Mike

 

[Dennis in MA]

If you could produce enough indicia of residency it's trivially easy to make any plane fly.

-Mike

Well aren't we using our five-dolla-word vocabulary today. Indicia. I never hear that word anymore.

Seriously... Can we please stop talking about this before someone decides they need to pass a law to close the "two house loophole"???

Nah. NBD until someone uses it to shoot up a school.

 

[HorizontalHunter]

Shhhhhh! Don't talk about the "residency loophole". Maura will ban second home ownership or limit second home sales to 1 per decade.

Bob

 

[Boston4567]

Shhhhhh! Don't talk about the "residency loophole". Maura will ban second home ownership or limit second home sales to 1 per decade.

Bob

We should just adopt their strategy and whenever we want a law, call it closing a loophole.

We need to close the "dictator" loophole that allows Maura Healey to redefine "assault weapon" and create an unwritten roster of what pistols can be sold here. Need to close the "time limit" loophole so police get punished if they don't issue LTCs within 40 days. Oh, and the "Second Amendment" loophole that requires us to keep our guns locked up even if the only people that live in the house have LTCs.

 

[CrackPot]

Because when you get a DL in another state you have to forfeit your DL in the original state. That causes lots of problems.

Easily fixed by just getting a state ID in the second state. (which isn't usually contingent on a drivers license etc. )

-Mike

Some states let you get a nondrivers state id without giving up your drivers license. Some require you to give up your drivers license.
Non-Driver Identification | Department of Motor Vehicles
VT is clear about no drivers license.
Non-Driver Identification | Driver Licensing | Division of Motor Vehicles | NH Department of Safety
NH says you can have both only if over 65.
Apply for a New Maine Identification Card | DMV.ORG
ME seems easy
Apply for a New Florida Identification Card | DMV.ORG
FL does not let you have any other license
TxDPS - How to apply for a Texas Identification Card
TX was easy as I know from first hand experience.

 

[LittleCalm]

So in NH you can get a non-driver ID and have a license from another state.

 

[Snora]

Perhaps get a VT ID showing your VT address from the DMV? IANAL Apply for a New Vermont Identification Card | DMV.ORG

FWIW my PD would not accept my MA driver's license as proof of residency. A statement from my credit card was adequate though.

 

[Boston4567]

Some states let you get a nondrivers state id without giving up your drivers license. Some require you to give up your drivers license.
Non-Driver Identification | Department of Motor Vehicles
VT is clear about no drivers license.
Non-Driver Identification | Driver Licensing | Division of Motor Vehicles | NH Department of Safety
NH says you can have both only if over 65.
Apply for a New Maine Identification Card | DMV.ORG
ME seems easy
Apply for a New Florida Identification Card | DMV.ORG
FL does not let you have any other license
TxDPS - How to apply for a Texas Identification Card
TX was easy as I know from first hand experience.

Good catch, I missed that the first time on the NH site. "Residents under 65 can only get a non-driver identification card if they do not currently have a valid driver license."

I did some digging into the NH Administrative Rules though, and it looks like this only applies if you have a NH license:

"'Driver license' means a license [...] issued by the state of New Hampshire. [...] Each applicant for a non-driver identification card shall [...] surrender any current driver license he/she has been issued. " (NH Admin Rules Saf-C 1001.07 & Saf-C 1011.07)

The interesting question is, for the states that require license surrender, is that enforced? There's a nationwide clearinghouse that allows them to automatically enforce the "only one drivers license" rule, but I'm not sure if they're allowed to hook their non-DL ID systems into it. Although I suppose they could do a manual search and refuse to issue the ID if they find an active DL.

So in NH you can get a non-driver ID and have a license from another state.

Despite what the NH DMV site appears to say, yup, you can.

 

[KBCraig]

ATF doesn't care if you "establish residency", as we normally think of it for taxation, in-state tuition, or voting.

ATF operates under rules they promulgated under federal statutes that don't care about any of that. Those rules say that you're a resident for ATF purposes while you actually reside there, and that includes a second residence.

 

[42!]

Boston4567,

There is only one reason why those moving in with guns do not have to register them. To file an FA-10 one must have a LTC # AND do so within 7 days of a gun moving into MA . . . you can't possibly comply with that as it takes months to get the LTC. Thus they built in this ONE exemption.

Once you have a LTC and bring a gun in from out of state (even if you owned it before the move), you must file an FA-10 to be in compliance with the law.

As for timeshares, my personal experience was not in the US, but I do suspect it is similar to buying a US timeshare. We were given no deed, got no tax bills. We had a contract which explained our "rights" to the property. All taxes paid on the property were billed to the company contracted to manage the property and were built into the annual "maintenance fee" that we paid. No way I can see any city/town issuing 52 tax bills on a single property. I doubt any US timeshare comes with a legitimate deed filed in a county land court.

Differences Between Deeded and Right to Use Timeshare
The biggest difference between Deeded and Right to use is the ownership of the property. Deeded means you physically own a fraction of the property. Right to use only gives you the right to stay at the property. If the developer goes into default or goes bankrupt, with a deeded property you would still own your fraction of the property. However with a right to use you never had an ownership of the property and would lose the ability to use the program in most cases.

Another major distinction is the influence a timeshare owner has at the resort. With a deeded property the owner has a voting right to maintenance and operations within that resort. The right to use properties, however, have little to no control over many things, including increasing annual fees, or imposing special assessments. With a Right to use, the developer has the control to raise annual fees and change the rules of the resort at anytime.

My ex-FIL owned something like 8 weeks of timeshare and he was adamant that he would only buy deeded timeshare, and yes there were actual deeds. He made a fair living in real estate so I have to assume he knew what he was doing.

 

[amm5061]

Shhhhhh! Don't talk about the "residency loophole". Maura will ban second home ownership or limit second home sales to 1 per decade.

Bob

"Nobody needs more than one house!" - Bernie Sanders (paraphrased)

 

[LittleCalm]

As noted above, you can’t get a NH non-driver ID if you are under 65 and have a NH drivers license. Having a MA drivers license should not preclude you from getting the NH non-driver ID. But I have yet to try it. Some shops I’ve been to will just accept a tax bill and call it a day.

 

[LittleCalm]

“Nobody needs more than one house paid for by the DNC in exchange for dropping my campaign and endorsing Hillary!” - Bernie Sanders (paraphrased)

FIFY

 

[Len-2A Training]

My ex-FIL owned something like 8 weeks of timeshare and he was adamant that he would only buy deeded timeshare, and yes there were actual deeds. He made a fair living in real estate so I have to assume he knew what he was doing.

When we bought timeshare in St. Maarten, we were assured that it was deeded. We never received any deed, only our contract to purchase. Lots of shady things were done down there, so who knows what we really had. I'm just glad we got rid of them finally in 2000 never to look back.

 

[Dennis in MA]

I've mentioned this before and have heard people here tell me it's AOK.

Friend of mine had a FL Non-Resi DL. (They actually may not offer these anymore. This is 15-20 yrs ago or so.) His LGS said this was adequate proof of FL residency.

I found a non-res license as proof of residency to be pretty comical. But it's a valid FL DL with a FL address on it. (He owned a trailer down there in a park. I forget WHY he got the non-resi license.)

 

[HorizontalHunter]

I've mentioned this before and have heard people here tell me it's AOK.

Friend of mine had a FL Non-Resi DL. (They actually may not offer these anymore. This is 15-20 yrs ago or so.) His LGS said this was adequate proof of FL residency.

I found a non-res license as proof of residency to be pretty comical. But it's a valid FL DL with a FL address on it. (He owned a trailer down there in a park. I forget WHY he got the non-resi license.)

They no longer allow it.

He most likely had the Florida license because that is where he registered his vehicles to avoid the excise taxes.

Bob

 

[amm5061]

God I wish I had renewed my PA photo ID card. Never thought about keeping it because my DL served the same purpose until MA took it along with their pound of flesh.

 

[Dennis in MA]

Yeah. That was it, HH. I think they kept a car down there for the winter.

I don't think he ever used the NR DL to buy anything because we thought he'd get put into PMITA Prison for it. LOL

My son (And now daughter - long story - will send Pix soon) lives in MO. Short of hi-cap mags, he is gonna be home in less than 3 years and can bring me anything I REALLY "need."

 

[Noreaster]

Huh, im a completely new to this - but would buying a small cheap sub $1k plot of land in NH and putting a tent down "establish residency"?

Here is a link to an ATF document. I am giving this link because the answer to your question really isn't cut and dry. I would say that a tax bill may allow you to pull it off, but a tent is not really a place to call home. Up to you how you want to move forward. In all seriousness, if you want to do that to get cool things that are not available in MA, where are you going to store them when you come back in state?

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2010-6-state-residence/download

 

[Dennis in MA]

How about those schemes where you buy a 1sf lot of Florida swampland back in the 70's?????

 

[10thSFFD]

"Nobody needs more than one house!" - Bernie Sanders (paraphrased)

"Unless somebody will donate it to you!"

 

[JayMcB]

so, does anyone know of an FFL that will play ball in NH for second home owners? If you don't want to put it out here, PM is fine

 

[Boston4567]

In all seriousness, if you want to do that to get cool things that are not available in MA, where are you going to store them when you come back in state?

Primary benefit would be to buy new handguns that are not EOPSS- & AG-approved, I think.

so, does anyone know of an FFL that will play ball in NH for second home owners? If you don't want to put it out here, PM is fine

NH ID cards cost $10, if you have one the FFL will have no need to know your NH house is a second home.

 

[Noreaster]

Primary benefit would be to buy new handguns that are not EOPSS- & AG-approved, I think.

Understood, however, It’s cheaper to pay the one time “hard to find item” markup in mass than the ongoing property tax.

To each their own.

 

[Noreaster]

so, does anyone know of an FFL that will play ball in NH for second home owners? If you don't want to put it out here, PM is fine

Find a couple FFLs in your (NH) area and call them. It’s not a bizarre situation. Heck thev4473 even has instructions for it. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. Bonus points if there is a silencershop kiosk in one of them.

 

[Boston4567]

Understood, however, It’s cheaper to pay the one time “hard to find item” markup in mass than the ongoing property tax.

To each their own.

I didn't realize you were responding to the "buy a $1k plot of land" guy, I agree that's not a good idea

 

[FrugalFannie]

Crackpot - I get it. The 4473 form appears to be pretty clear that one can have residence in two states. Even explains how to properly fill out the form in that case. Now you have an ATF agent telling the OP/FFL that a tax bill is not sufficient to claim residency. Somewhere I read that the property in the "other" state must be a residence not just land, makes sense but not sure if that is true and what if you just camp on your land? In that case a utility bill would be a good addition, I would think. The question then remains, for the OP, what is proof of residency? If the ATF guy is telling him no what is his next move? Perhaps calling the ATF and getting a written opinion? I suppose for me that is a call I will need to make.

IIRC, the reason why a tax bill is not generally acceptable proof (even including a water bill) of residency is the fact that you could be renting out that home and paying those bills but not actually residing there. In the old days one would have a phone line installed and possibly that would be acceptable proof because who would pay a phone bill for a house they didn't live in. Heck, you could buy a crappy truck and register it up there (no insurance?) and your registration would likely make a better case for residency.

 

[FrugalFannie]

This is very interesting, I didn't know this... So if you own a vacation home in NH, you can buy guns there legally as long as you're residing in that house, and going up for the weekend counts. Transaction takes place between NH residents in NH, so MA has no jurisdiction, no eFA-10 filed. And LTC means you can take it to your MA home if you want (just no AW/high-cap mags).

Where this could become interesting is if you own a week in a NH timeshare.... granted, you could only buy during that one week each year you're residing there. But I wonder whether that would fly?

A time share does not qualify any more than renting a hotel room for a week would qualify.

 

[firestorm]

A time share does not qualify any more than renting a hotel room for a week would qualify.

Not that I believe that a time share would give you enough paperwork to provide proof but do you have a cite for this? If one does have a deed, or enough proof to provide it does not seem it would matter if it was a time share or a home you own and rent out most of the year. The ATF seems to have a broad definition of residency as long as you are only buying while you are residing there.