ATF Proposed Rule Change for Frames and Receivers

[cathouse01]

This is really just the tip of the iceberg regarding Congress, along with the help of the Supreme Court, abrogating their law making responsibilities to the Executive branch.

It all started in 1944 with Skidmore v. Swift & Co., where the court declared that the rulings, interpretations, and opinions of the administrator of a Fed Agency deserve the court’s deference according to their persuasiveness. Then, in 1945, in Bowles v. Seminole Rock & Sand Co., the SJC expanded it to read that federal courts must defer to an administrative agency's interpretation of its own regulation unless the interpretation "is plainly erroneous or inconsistent with the regulation”. This was followed up finally with the infamous Chevron U.S.A., Inc. v. Natural Resources Defense Council, Inc. ruling in 1984 that resulted in the current “Chevron Two Step Test” to determine if a Federal Agency has over stepped its bounds.

First, always, is the question whether Congress has directly spoken to the precise question at issue. If the intent of Congress is clear, that is the end of the matter; for the court, as well as the agency, must give effect to the unambiguously expressed intent of Congress. If, however, the court determines Congress has not directly addressed the precise question at issue, the court does not simply impose its own construction on the statute . . . Rather, if the statute is silent or ambiguous with respect to the specific issue, the question for the court is whether the agency's answer is based on a permissible construction of the statute.

— Chevron U.S.A. v. NRDC, 467 U.S. 837, 842-43 (1984).

The key here is what is meant by “the precise question at issue”. With laws becoming more and more generalized and ambiguous, there is more and more latitude for Fed agency to declare that “the precise question at issue” was not addressed in the law as passed.

This is what Agencies like the ATF use to greatly expand the reach of their regulations. It’s what the ATF used to expand the definition of a machine gun to include bump stocks and what they are using to expand the definition of a firearm to include “80%” frames/lowers. The fact is that now a days the Legislative branch is almost never passing laws that are complete and clear in detail. Those serving don’t have the time or inclination to learn the details of the subjects that the laws they are passing effect. They pass some general law and then leave it up to the Executive to “work out the details”. So we end up with an unelected Executive agency being allowed to determine what is or isn’t a gun.

 

[paul73]

yepper - the propaganda mill spitted out something just now:

Biden to nominate new ATF director, release ghost gun rule

President Joe Biden is set to announce that he is nominating an Obama-era U.S. attorney to run the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

apnews.com

 

[Lowbird]

View: https://www.instagram.com/tv/CcLvFfnPELY/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

[Reptile]

Biden expected to release rule on ghost guns in days​

The rule comes as both the White House and the Justice Department try to crack down on violent crime and gun deaths​

Biden expected to release rule on ghost guns in days

President Joe Biden is expected to release a new ghost gun rule as soon as Monday, according to people familiar with the matter.

www.foxnews.com

 

[71montess]

Biden expected to release rule on ghost guns in days​

The rule comes as both the White House and the Justice Department try to crack down on violent crime and gun deaths​

Biden expected to release rule on ghost guns in days

President Joe Biden is expected to release a new ghost gun rule as soon as Monday, according to people familiar with the matter.

www.foxnews.com

Well, put violent criminals away for long time !

 

[OnTheRoad]

 

[Lowbird]

Looking around and found some forged Anderson 80s, some billet Noreens, and some generic billet store branded units. They're not sold out yet. Lol

 

[Reptile]

Looking around and found some forged Anderson 80s, some billet Noreens, and some generic billet store branded units. They're not sold out yet. Lol

View attachment 602081

I think it will take a few months for the new law to be enacted, right?

 

[teamRR]

I think it will take a few months for the new law to be enacted, right?

Sorry to be technical and I know you know, but it's not a law. Is treated like a law of course...

Supposedly yes on the grace period. But you know how it's gonna go. A true last time buy in the gun market, in practical terms if you want something, better put the order in before everyone else gets going.

 

[teamRR]

View attachment 602044

That is a good one man.

 

[teamRR]

This is really just the tip of the iceberg regarding Congress, along with the help of the Supreme Court, abrogating their law making responsibilities to the Executive branch.

It all started in 1944 with Skidmore v. Swift & Co., where the court declared that the rulings, interpretations, and opinions of the administrator of a Fed Agency deserve the court’s deference according to their persuasiveness. Then, in 1945, in Bowles v. Seminole Rock & Sand Co., the SJC expanded it to read that federal courts must defer to an administrative agency's interpretation of its own regulation unless the interpretation "is plainly erroneous or inconsistent with the regulation”. This was followed up finally with the infamous Chevron U.S.A., Inc. v. Natural Resources Defense Council, Inc. ruling in 1984 that resulted in the current “Chevron Two Step Test” to determine if a Federal Agency has over stepped its bounds.

The key here is what is meant by “the precise question at issue”. With laws becoming more and more generalized and ambiguous, there is more and more latitude for Fed agency to declare that “the precise question at issue” was not addressed in the law as passed.

This is what Agencies like the ATF use to greatly expand the reach of their regulations. It’s what the ATF used to expand the definition of a machine gun to include bump stocks and what they are using to expand the definition of a firearm to include “80%” frames/lowers. The fact is that now a days the Legislative branch is almost never passing laws that are complete and clear in detail. Those serving don’t have the time or inclination to learn the details of the subjects that the laws they are passing effect. They pass some general law and then leave it up to the Executive to “work out the details”. So we end up with an unelected Executive agency being allowed to determine what is or isn’t a gun.

This is what democrats/communists like - look at the state of MA. Vague subjective rules subject to interpretation, rarely enforced, forever changing, a constant threat, so its never clear what is allowed.

Add/edit - I will say this, we have a good Supreme Court. Yes they pass on too many things, but the OSHA vaccine mandate went too far and they went out of their way to kill it. The same could occur here, a similar situation where an agency directed by Biden is making things up and contradicting themselves.

 

[APFSDS]

And here it is:

Biden to release rule on ghost guns amid increase in gun deaths in US

 

[nightpoison]

Sorry to be technical and I know you know, but it's not a law. Is treated like a law of course...

Supposedly yes on the grace period. But you know how it's gonna go. A true last time buy in the gun market, in practical terms if you want something, better put the order in before everyone else gets going.

I was just on 80% Arms and there servers are having a hard time. Major lag, it appears a lot of people r trying to grab what they can right now.

 

[Lowbird]

I was just on 80% Arms and there servers are having a hard time. Major lag, it appears a lot of people r trying to grab what they can right now.

Thanks for the reminder, grabbed a mod 1. Been focused on finding and sharing rifle stuff, forgot pistols.

 

[Dennis in MA]

I was shocked I was able to get a live person at Home Depot checkout where I could pay cash

That peeves me off. I've mostly sworn HD off because they don't have counter staff. The last 2 times in Lowes - same problem. I end up the Contractor's Desk every time. F them all.

This f***in guy, if I can call it that.

View attachment 601858

Look at what I've done - all the hard work. . . . send me money!

This is really just the tip of the iceberg regarding Congress, along with the help of the Supreme Court, abrogating their law making responsibilities to the Executive branch.

It all started in 1944 with Skidmore v. Swift & Co., where the court declared that the rulings, interpretations, and opinions of the administrator of a Fed Agency deserve the court’s deference according to their persuasiveness. Then, in 1945, in Bowles v. Seminole Rock & Sand Co., the SJC expanded it to read that federal courts must defer to an administrative agency's interpretation of its own regulation unless the interpretation "is plainly erroneous or inconsistent with the regulation”. This was followed up finally with the infamous Chevron U.S.A., Inc. v. Natural Resources Defense Council, Inc. ruling in 1984 that resulted in the current “Chevron Two Step Test” to determine if a Federal Agency has over stepped its bounds.

The key here is what is meant by “the precise question at issue”. With laws becoming more and more generalized and ambiguous, there is more and more latitude for Fed agency to declare that “the precise question at issue” was not addressed in the law as passed.

This is what Agencies like the ATF use to greatly expand the reach of their regulations. It’s what the ATF used to expand the definition of a machine gun to include bump stocks and what they are using to expand the definition of a firearm to include “80%” frames/lowers. The fact is that now a days the Legislative branch is almost never passing laws that are complete and clear in detail. Those serving don’t have the time or inclination to learn the details of the subjects that the laws they are passing effect. They pass some general law and then leave it up to the Executive to “work out the details”. So we end up with an unelected Executive agency being allowed to determine what is or isn’t a gun.

I'm not sure it'll be so easy to change the definition of a firearm - although it appears they're gonna try really really hard.

That part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel. 27 CFR § 478.11.

Hard to argue that's ambiguous. It's not modern-relevant, but that's Congress' job, not Uncle Joe's.

 

[Uzi2]

While Biden and all of his leftist supporters waste time and money on going after a non existent problem, the world population is in jeopardy of starvation.

The Earth Only Has A 3 Month Supply Of Food – If Production Stops Humanity Has Nothing To Eat "In 90 Days"

We are far closer to a potential global cataclysm than most people would dare to imagine. Right now, leaders from all across the political spectrum are openly warning us that a worldwide food crisis is

themostimportantnews.com

 

[teamRR]

Hard to argue that's ambiguous. It's not modern-relevant, but that's Congress' job, not Uncle Joe's.

I agree. This probably isn't even close to the end of it. Once implemented the lawsuits begin. We may see open/shut/open/shut for p80s for awhile.

Also I see a pretty simple workaround to the whole serializing, FFL-ing, the p80s (that I won't post here publicly). I think p80s are going to live on via some new YouTube videos. Initially I thought cnc milling and 3d printing was going to be the only way but no, something even easier will undermine this all even if the courts don't.

 

[DispositionMatrix]

Here we go:
FACT SHEET: The Biden Administration Cracks Down on Ghost Guns, Ensures That ATF Has the Leadership it Needs to Enforce Our Gun Laws

This final rule bans the business of manufacturing the most accessible ghost guns, such as unserialized “buy build shoot” kits that individuals can buy online or at a store without a background check and can readily assemble into a working firearm in as little as 30 minutes with equipment they have at home. This rule clarifies that these kits qualify as “firearms” under the Gun Control Act, and that commercial manufacturers of such kits must therefore become licensed and include serial numbers on the kits’ frame or receiver, and commercial sellers of these kits must become federally licensed and run background checks prior to a sale – just like they have to do with other commercially-made firearms.

The final rule will also help turn some ghost guns already in circulation into serialized firearms. Through this rule, the Justice Department is requiring federally licensed dealers and gunsmiths taking any unserialized firearm into inventory to serialize that weapon. For example, if an individual builds a firearm at home and then sells it to a pawn broker or another federally licensed dealer, that dealer must put a serial number on the weapon before selling it to a customer. This requirement will apply regardless of how the firearm was made, meaning it includes ghost guns made from individual parts, kits, or by 3D-printers.

First, the final rule ensures that firearms with split receivers are subject to regulations requiring serial numbers and background checks when purchased from a licensed dealer, manufacturer or importer. Decades ago, ATF issued a regulation defining the “frame or receiver” of a firearm as the part that is regulated by the Gun Control Act – meaning that is the part that triggers federal serialization, background check, and other requirements. At that time, many firearms in the United States were single-framed firearms, like revolvers, that house key components in a single structure. However, we have seen the increasing popularity of firearms using split or multi-part receivers that house key components in multiple structures. Some courts have recently interpreted decades-old regulatory text in a way that, if broadly applied, could mean that as many as 90 percent of firearms in the United States today would not have a frame or receiver subject to federal regulation. The final rule updates the regulatory definitions of “frame” and “receiver” to ensure that firearms using split or multi-part receivers continue to be covered by our common-sense gun laws.

 

[Jsfitzgerald85]

so does this mean that upper receivers will also be serialized? As for 80% lowers, anyone who owns one and keeps it is unaffected by this....at this moment?

 

[Uzi2]

so does this mean that upper receivers will also be serialized? As for 80% lowers, anyone who owns one and keeps it is unaffected by this....at this moment?

Yes, that is one of their main objectives.

 

[rcwhat]

No

If you read through the multiple threads and original rule it explicitly excludes AR/Glock uppers because the ATF has previously issued determinations wrt serialization of these guns and which is considered to be the "reciever" for the purpose of serialization

I have no doubt that they WANT to require serial numbers on ALL parts and to force folks to go to FFL for simple parts but that is not part of the proposed rule as per information released to date

According to what the shithouse posted today, I’m not so sure. Sounds like they might start requiring the serialization of split receivers.

 

[snd1t]

According to what the shithouse posted today, I’m not so sure. Sounds like they might start requiring the serialization of split receivers.

You read the proposed rule right?

It explicitly excluded AR's and a list of firearms that the ATF had previously issued determinations on.

The "split reciever" blather is nothing more than an attempt to provide "justification" for what they are doing

Its pretty much unheard of for a final rule to become MORE strict than the proposed rule that was open to comments.....especially when the comments were massive and universally in opposition....AND puts a burden on citizens/businesses

Is it POSSIBLE that they will.....yea.....but highly unlikely and simply opens them up further to court challenges they stand a good chance of losing

 

[VTski4x4]

F*ck that feeble piece of sh*t.

 

[paul73]

You read the proposed rule right?

too many words and unfamiliar letters.

if anybody could summarize all that crap into some bulletpoints reflecting factual action items required now - it would be very helpful.

 

[timbo]

This f***in guy, if I can call it that.

View attachment 601858

I'll bet this "guy" gets a PMITA everyday without ever having been in jail. What a needle dick.

 

[timbo]

Biden expected to release rule on ghost guns in days​

The rule comes as both the White House and the Justice Department try to crack down on violent crime and gun deaths​

Biden expected to release rule on ghost guns in days

President Joe Biden is expected to release a new ghost gun rule as soon as Monday, according to people familiar with the matter.

www.foxnews.com

Just sign right here Mr. President. We'll take it from here...

 

[teamRR]

too many words and unfamiliar letters.

if anybody could summarize all that crap into some bulletpoints reflecting factual action items required now - it would be very helpful.

Read the posts, has been summarized a bunch.

Basically 80% items become guns - serialized FFL transfered products.

No impact to what you own already. *Unless* it passes through a gunsmith or FFL, then they are supposed to serialize it and you fill out a 4473 before they give it back but they do not actually run a background check, ie just recording ownership.

Other stuff related to similar suppressor kits I do not care to read.

Nothing actually to do with slides, uppers, other parts, serializing them or the like.

There are sections about 2 piece frames - this is their efforts to specify that an AR lower is actually a gun. Some background issues have occurred where courts have found it doesn't meet the criteria of being a gun. And similarly there is language in there aimed at allowing them to define which part of a gun is the gun for the next models invented. I have no love for these people but this area is not nefarious.

 

[cathouse01]

So this is an interesting bit from the fact sheet:

This final rule bans the business of manufacturing the most accessible ghost guns, such as unserialized “buy build shoot” kits that individuals can buy online or at a store without a background check and can readily assemble into a working firearm in as little as 30 minutes with equipment they have at home. This rule clarifies that these kits qualify as “firearms” under the Gun Control Act, and that commercial manufacturers of such kits must therefore become licensed and include serial numbers on the kits’ frame or receiver, and commercial sellers of these kits must become federally licensed and run background checks prior to a sale – just like they have to do with other commercially-made firearms.

My reading of this is that they are requiring serialization of complete build kits. These are kits that include an 80% lower/frame plus all the parts (FCG, slide/barrel/upper, LPK, etc) you need to complete the build. If this is actually what they are doing, it would mean you could still get 80% lowers/frames by themselves, just not as part of a complete kit. Notice the continued reference to “kits” and not an individual component.

 

[paul73]

My reading of this is that they are requiring serialization of complete build kits. These are kits that include an 80% lower/frame plus all the parts (FCG, slide/barrel/upper, LPK, etc) you need to complete the build. If this is actually what they are doing, it would mean you could still get 80% lowers/frames by themselves, just not as part of a complete kit.

the verbiage used there makes very little sense.

the practical outcome as it seems to me, as well as to others - nothing really changed, except of perhaps some new harrassment the ATF will begin against well known 80% parts manufacturers/sellers.

by the language used even a 0% block of aluminum is a firewarm now, if you got a proper router at home.

 

[hv55maxx]

so take the firing pin out of the whole kit and sell separately. are we at 79.5% lowers yet?