ATF Proposed Rule Change for Frames and Receivers

[DJBrad]

Would sellers have to serialize existing stock of 80% frames if the big AFT gender reveal says so? What would it look like? That warehouse full of 80% poverty ponies just gets sold as is?

 

[LittleCalm]

Wait, aren’t my shoe laces already machine guns?

 

[teamRR]

Lol so whats the new standard 79%?

There's still a line, somewhere.

Sure - they are trying to make the standard into the intent of the seller, or buyer, awful hard to define in a law. Theoretically a supplier of raw materials could drift into the territory if blocks of material matching some dimensions were marketed in one way versus another.

But really all I'm trying to tell people is read what's there. We do not need to go piling uppers and slides up, this bullshit is aimed squarely at "80%" frames and lowers, isn't making an upper, slide, bolt carrier, parts kit, into a firearm.

 

[teamRR]

Would sellers have to serialize existing stock of 80% frames if the big AFT gender reveal says so? What would it look like? That warehouse full of 80% poverty ponies just gets sold as is?

Yes theoretically if after whatever date they set someone in the business has them, theoretically they get serialized and sold/recorded only after a background check.

 

[DJBrad]

Wait, aren’t my shoe laces already machine guns?

I know those metal coat hangers are hard to find nowadays.

 

[LittleCalm]

Shockingly (because they didn't hold the other way), in the Crooker case the 1st circuit said you had to have intent to use an item as a suppressor on a firearm for you to have an NFA item that required the stamp, assuming the item was not otherwise manufactured as a firearm suppressor (the item was an air rifle suppressor). Presumably the same issue with a shoe lace or a pillow.

 

[cathouse01]

Lol so whats the new standard 79%?

There's still a line, somewhere.

Here is my personal read of the new proposal in terms of what it means to me.

They are clarifying the definition of frame/receiver of a gun in a way that (currently) we all can agree on. Particularly, the receiver of an AR is the lower. They even give you a little picture:

The upper will continue to be an unserialized part that is not considered a firearm frame or receiver. So I can still get uppers on the internet.

Privately Made Firearms (and they very specifically called out made rather than manufactured) continue to not require any marking as long as they are retained for personal use or are sold face to face where both parties are resident of the same state. If the firearm goes through an FFL, that FFL needs to get it marked within seven days of receiving it. An FFL can no longer transfer an unmarked PMF. So I don’t need to mark my private builds.

Any partially completed frame/receiver that can be “readily completed” will need to be treated as a firearm frame or receiver. The ATF Director gets to determine if a partially completed component can be “readily” completed. So in regards to incomplete frames/receivers, we will go down the same rathole as with the MA Attorney General's stupid consumer protection rules for handguns. No one will really know what is acceptable and what isn’t until the ATF decides to come after them. I’m assuming that the acting ATF Director will declare current 80% lowers/frames to be “readily completed”, and will therefore require serial numbers, go through an FFL, have a 4473 and background check. Since current 80% lowers will now go through the same process as a stripped lower, I would expect them to go the way of the Dodo. Might as well use a stripped lower if you have to get an 80% with a serial number through an FFL and fill out a 4473.

Everything else seems to be directed at FFLs, manufacturers and importers.

 

[amm5061]

Well, or for that matter, are they going to ban CNC machines? Or people from buying metal

Gonna ban billet aluminum. Cos f*** anyone trying to manufacture shit, now they will need to get FFLs and pay ITAR and SOT.

 

[JD221]

Gonna ban billet aluminum. Cos f*** anyone trying to manufacture shit, now they will need to get FFLs and pay ITAR and SOT.

So I guess this puts my plans on buying a ghost gunner out the effing window…? So we are to assume that an 80% stripped lower can be “Readily” made into a firearm?
In my personal interpretation I’ve seen prisoners make zip guns which will definitely fire a projectile. All they have is, a paperclip, some folded up paper and some rubber bands! Are those going to be banned now too!!

 

[KBCraig]

Here is my personal read of the new proposal in terms of what it means to me.

They are clarifying the definition of frame/receiver of a gun in a way that (currently) we all can agree on. Particularly, the receiver of an AR is the lower.

We?

You have a frog in your pocket?

 

[cathouse01]

We?

You have a frog in your pocket?

The Pope and I always use the "royal we” (know as nosism) .

 

[Tartakovsky]

Here is my personal read of the new proposal in terms of what it means to me.

They are clarifying the definition of frame/receiver of a gun in a way that (currently) we all can agree on. Particularly, the receiver of an AR is the lower. They even give you a little picture:
View attachment 600526
The upper will continue to be an unserialized part that is not considered a firearm frame or receiver. So I can still get uppers on the internet.

Privately Made Firearms (and they very specifically called out made rather than manufactured) continue to not require any marking as long as they are retained for personal use or are sold face to face where both parties are resident of the same state. If the firearm goes through an FFL, that FFL needs to get it marked within seven days of receiving it. An FFL can no longer transfer an unmarked PMF. So I don’t need to mark my private builds.

Any partially completed frame/receiver that can be “readily completed” will need to be treated as a firearm frame or receiver. The ATF Director gets to determine if a partially completed component can be “readily” completed. So in regards to incomplete frames/receivers, we will go down the same rathole as with the MA Attorney General's stupid consumer protection rules for handguns. No one will really know what is acceptable and what isn’t until the ATF decides to come after them. I’m assuming that the acting ATF Director will declare current 80% lowers/frames to be “readily completed”, and will therefore require serial numbers, go through an FFL, have a 4473 and background check. Since current 80% lowers will now go through the same process as a stripped lower, I would expect them to go the way of the Dodo. Might as well use a stripped lower if you have to get an 80% with a serial number through an FFL and fill out a 4473.

Everything else seems to be directed at FFLs, manufacturers and importers.

Please exempt me from the “we” you speak of. The receiver of an AR is two separate parts combined by take down pins, the lower and the upper. The lower may be serialized, but it’s just as much the definition of “receiver” as the upper, at least according to the current federal definition. MA doesn’t define a receiver but there is a federal definition, and I’m paraphrasing, but “that part of a pistol, rifle and/or shotgun that accepts the fire control group, the action and the threaded part to accept the barrel”. An AR‘s “receiver“ is split into two halves. You’re a simp if you think for one second, the government wouldn‘t move to serialize the upper and the lower if they had the votes. Don’t carry water for the government. They’d get rid of all of your rights if they could. They’re playing the long game and stripping away your rights now.

 

[teamRR]

Please exempt me from the “we” you speak of. The receiver of an AR is two separate parts combined by take down pins, the lower and the upper. The lower may be serialized, but it’s just as much the definition of “receiver” as the upper, at least according to the current federal definition. MA doesn’t define a receiver but there is a federal definition, and I’m paraphrasing, but “that part of a pistol, rifle and/or shotgun that accepts the fire control group, the action and the threaded part to accept the barrel”. An AR‘s “receiver“ is split into two halves. You’re a simp if you think for one second, the government wouldn‘t move to serialize the upper and the lower if they had the votes. Don’t carry water for the government. They’d get rid of all of your rights if they could. They’re playing the long game and stripping away your rights now.

What they'd really like to do is take them all away, nevermind serialize the uppers.

But the person you quoted was citing accurate information, versus some of what we have read to the contrary (where folks read one paragraph of a massive document and jumped to conclusions).

Today, this action they are proposing, isn't impacting AR uppers or anything aside from 80% items (and some similar suppressor considerations). So at least as far as this goes, that's the extent.

 

[Tartakovsky]

What they'd really like to do is take them all away, nevermind serialize the uppers.

But the person you quoted was citing accurate information, versus some of what we have read to the contrary (where folks read one paragraph of a massive document and jumped to conclusions).

Today, this action they are proposing, isn't impacting AR uppers or anything aside from 80% items (and some similar suppressor considerations). So at least as far as this goes, that's the extent.

My point is that this is still death by a thousand cuts. They are playing the long game. First they say "we're only concerned about the lower receiver" then tomorrow they say "we need to restrict criminals from access to all components used to make a gun or modifications that can be made to "make the gun even deadlier". This is a low energy, predictable and common tactic, to get heat off them from the 2A community by making you think "no big deal". They've been doing this for a century, slowly eroding your rights without creating too much opposition. One day, you'll wake up and realize your rights are gone.

 

[teamRR]

My point is that this is still death by a thousand cuts. They are playing the long game. First they say "we're only concerned about the lower receiver" then tomorrow they say "we need to restrict criminals from access to all components used to make a gun or modifications that can be made to "make the gun even deadlier". This is a low energy, predictable and common tactic, to get heat off them from the 2A community by making you think "no big deal". They've been doing this for a century, slowly eroding your rights without creating too much opposition. One day, you'll wake up and realize your rights are gone.

In my eyes the root of this is the Brady law, requiring background checks for all gun purchases. That occurred in the 90s. The train left the station with that passing.

With that requirement on the books, like it or not, the main purpose of the (relatively recently invented) 80% kits is to undermine it. And don't get me wrong, I think the game of undermining that BS is great - and it will continue to another front (ie maybe hunks of material and cnc milling machines) if this ATF concept is allowed to stand - and it might not stand once its implemented and the lawsuits begin.

But 80% kits are awfully close to buying a firearm without a background check and the law on the books says otherwise.

The bigger question for me is how far is the ATF going to be allowed to go without an actual new law backing it. What actually constitutes a firearm is kinda a big deal to be left to an agency to constantly modify (especially when they turn 180 degrees based on who is in office).

But no. Although I understand what you mean and have seen it happen, particularly at the state level, in my eyes this is not so much progressive gun control. If it was going after uppers or some other part I'd agree. It's attempting to make illegal what was invented recently to undermine the established 25+ year old law (a law I don't agree with but that's not the point, it's still there).

 

[MGnoob]

You guys should see how sharp I can make the end of a stick….


View: https://youtu.be/zGEiK9StSfQ

 

[CatSnoutSoup]

A prominent vendor, known to many here, put out an email late yesterday afternoon saying they have reason to believe that there will be a White House announcement of the rule change on Monday 4/11/2022.

I envision a joint 'dog & pony show' featuring Creepy Joe and equally creepy Merrick Garland.

 

[Tallahassee]

A prominent vendor, known to many here, put out an email late yesterday afternoon saying they have reason to believe that there will be a White House announcement of the rule change on Monday 4/11/2022.

I envision a joint 'dog & pony show' featuring Creepy Joe and equally creepy Merrick Garland.

Battle Cross arms?

Who was the vendor? If its a secret mass thing, could you PM me? Thank you

 

[Roadglide]

They've been doing this for a century, slowly eroding your rights without creating too much opposition. One day, you'll wake up and realize your rights are gone.

This may be old hat but boy are they fine tuning it now. I cringe every time I see the new citizens bank commercial where the guy cant get the soda machine to accept the dollar bill and the woman pays instantly with her phone. Woo hoo....no more paper money...it will be great they say. Jesus we're doomed.

 

[67ray]

I always think of the receiver as the part that takes the magazines. It is a simple definition that works everytime regardless of whether there is a firing pin or not.

Not sure it always works for all nonsemiautomatics though.

 

[Lowbird]

Found some cheapish ($65) billet units from a random vendor. I'll let you guys know if I get raided.

 

[Dennis in MA]

This may be old hat but boy are they fine tuning it now. I cringe every time I see the new citizens bank commercial where the guy cant get the soda machine to accept the dollar bill and the woman pays instantly with her phone. Woo hoo....no more paper money...it will be great they say. Jesus we're doomed.

On a plus note, the 4 people ahead of me at Target paid with cash yesterday. Real dollar bills. Shocking!

 

[Roadglide]

On a plus note, the 4 people ahead of me at Target paid with cash yesterday. Real dollar bills. Shocking!

I was shocked I was able to get a live person at Home Depot checkout where I could pay cash

 

[paul73]

Please exempt me from the “we” you speak of. The receiver of an AR is two separate parts combined by take down pins, the lower and the upper. The lower may be serialized, but it’s just as much the definition of “receiver” as the upper, at least according to the current federal definition. MA doesn’t define a receiver but there is a federal definition, and I’m paraphrasing, but “that part of a pistol, rifle and/or shotgun that accepts the fire control group, the action and the threaded part to accept the barrel”. An AR‘s “receiver“ is split into two halves. You’re a simp if you think for one second, the government wouldn‘t move to serialize the upper and the lower if they had the votes. Don’t carry water for the government. They’d get rid of all of your rights if they could. They’re playing the long game and stripping away your rights now.

they do and they will continue to, until they reach the british/european model.

look at any european made handgun and count how many serial numbers you see on it, and on what parts. an each one is a prohibited item - slide, barrel and frame.

 

[Lowbird]

This f***in guy, if I can call it that.

 

[Packofqtips]

Hopefully my order ships, i have lowers. Ordered some uppers.

 

[murf4321]

My point is that this is still death by a thousand cuts. They are playing the long game. First they say "we're only concerned about the lower receiver" then tomorrow they say "we need to restrict criminals from access to all components used to make a gun or modifications that can be made to "make the gun even deadlier". This is a low energy, predictable and common tactic, to get heat off them from the 2A community by making you think "no big deal". They've been doing this for a century, slowly eroding your rights without creating too much opposition. One day, you'll wake up and realize your rights are gone.

Yup, this is why simply banning bump stocks was more than simply banning bump stocks

 

[teamRR]

Hopefully my order ships, i have lowers. Ordered some uppers.

Again, it's got nothing to do with uppers unless they basically re-wrote it since last published.

Even lowers, if they are in stock and ordered before policy actually changes, the expectation is for some period of time (weeks or months) we are in a grace period. Now in reality what will happen is probably prices skyrocket, stocks dwindle and are exhausted day 1 after announcement. But practically speaking I bet everything sitting on a shelf today makes it out the door directly to consumers before they become FFL transfered items.

 

[paul73]

Again, it's got nothing to do with uppers unless they basically re-wrote it since last published.

Even lowers, if they are in stock and ordered before policy actually changes, the expectation is for some period of time (weeks or months) we are in a grace period. Now in reality what will happen is probably prices skyrocket, stocks dwindle and are exhausted day 1 after announcement. But practically speaking I bet everything sitting on a shelf today makes it out the door directly to consumers before they become FFL transfered items.

i do not think they will have anything at all of any practical consequence to be announced on monday.

 

[teamRR]

i do not think they will have anything at all of any practical consequence to be announced on monday.

Yep totally possible too.

And really this stuff is all about claiming victory in front of the stupid masses.

Even the ATF knows however many of these we have assembled/stocked in private hands remain in circulation, and that they can't control the ownership of a cnc milling machine, a 3d printer, or privately built guns - even if, and it's an if, they can stop 80% recievers.