Article: Minnesota Police Association Sues NFL for Disarming Off-Duty Officers

Better yet, if MPPOA wins, would this be a case of "equal protection" where as even us surfs could carry?
 
Interesting to see where this goes.

Kraft has banned off-duty officers from carrying at Gillette since Day-1. Pretty sure that Sullivan did too before him.

Private venue and they can make their own rules.

However the police could also refuse to work details at the games and get revenge at a huge cost (officers make tons of money working the games)!

Like I said, this could get interesting.
 
Are Stadiums private property? If so, why would the NFL have any say in what goes on in them,

Second point, if its privately owned property of any kind, doesn't the owner of the property have final say on what anyone can do on it, even off duty officers

I really don't see the police having a real say in this, unless its state owned property
 
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gearjunky13 said:
Are Stadiums private property? If so, why would the NFL have any say in what goes on in them,

Second point, if its privately owned property of any kind, doesn't the owner of the property have final say on what anyone can do on it, even off duty officers

I really don't see the police having a real say in this, unless its state owned property
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At least Gillette is private owned by Bob Kraft. Unsure of others. Even the private stadiums get huge tax breaks to put their stadiums up, it's all politics.

MLB just banned all guns at their stadiums IIRC starting this year. I suspect NFL did too but not 100% on that.
 
The Patriots are a NFL franchise. If I'm not mistaken the NFL can dictate the security protocols for all Stadiums that host NFL games.
 
This is a simple one to solve. If the off duty cops don't like the policy, they don't have to go the games and can watch them at home. They are no better than anybody else who gets drunk at these types of events.
 
LenS said:
However the police could also refuse to work details at the games and get revenge at a huge cost (officers make tons of money working the games)!
Click to expand...

Krafty Bob could just hire more private security officers to take their place and only call the locals and staties when it comes time to transport the animals into a cage for the night.
If they refuse to do traffic control on Rte 1, so be it, the traffic flow would probably improve and the side streets would be available for short cuts in and out of the hell hole.
 
LenS said:
Interesting to see where this goes.

Kraft has banned off-duty officers from carrying at Gillette since Day-1. Pretty sure that Sullivan did too before him.

Private venue and they can make their own rules.

However the police could also refuse to work details at the games and get revenge at a huge cost (officers make tons of money working the games)!

Like I said, this could get interesting.
Click to expand...
I'm curious as to how many NFL stadiums allow off duty LE or concealed carry at all? I bet not many. What about Boston Garden or Fenway, has anyone carried there?
 
derek said:
The Patriots are a NFL franchise. If I'm not mistaken the NFL can dictate the security protocols for all Stadiums that host NFL games.
Click to expand...

Yes.


StevensMarksman said:
Isn't the NFL subsidized by the federal government?

StevensMarksman
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IIRC, yes to a huge degree wrt Fed tax exempt status, probably local exemptions too.


LTCRN said:
This is a simple one to solve. If the off duty cops don't like the policy, they don't have to go the games and can watch them at home. They are no better than anybody else who gets drunk at these types of events.
Click to expand...

True and the bolded part is sadly very true!


LTCRN said:
Krafty Bob could just hire more private security officers to take their place and only call the locals and staties when it comes time to transport the animals into a cage for the night.
If they refuse to do traffic control on Rte 1, so be it, the traffic flow would probably improve and the side streets would be available for short cuts in and out of the hell hole.
Click to expand...

I was once offered this job in a weird way (I declined) . . . I would be working in a municipal police (not Foxboro) uniform, fully armed but with absolutely NO police powers. Thus I could not make a legal arrest regardless of what went down, and this was for mall cop wages! No thank you. I had a personal discussion with the Foxboro Chief (he was one of my Police Academy instructors and I've stayed in touch with him over the years) and he told me that he was no longer (this was quite a while ago) swearing in other town officers as Special Foxboro Police (which would give us full police powers).

So yes Bob could do this (and probably does) but you are under no legal obligation to be detained by someone with no lawful authority of arrest and I could see this going sideways very quickly! I'm addressing the major issues WITHIN the stadium and parking lots, not the roadways. Some years ago I was made aware that MSP had arrested 300 people at one football game! It's quite a busy time for LE due to the drunks, fights, OUI, etc.

NO WAY MSP would give up their cushy details of directing traffic, it is all about the money!


GPP said:
I'm curious as to how many NFL stadiums allow off duty LE or concealed carry at all? I bet not many. What about Boston Garden or Fenway, has anyone carried there?
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"Allow" - probably none! Actually screen people to find a gun on someone, probably few!
 
GPP said:
I'm curious as to how many NFL stadiums allow off duty LE or concealed carry at all? I bet not many. What about Boston Garden or Fenway, has anyone carried there?
Click to expand...

None.

The NFL adopted its policy last fall and sent a letter to the teams Sept. 11. The policy said guns were "strictly prohibited" within NFL facilities; the only exceptions were law enforcement personnel assigned to games and private security contractors who were licensed to carry a gun.

People or teams who violate the policy can be fined, suspended or fired, the policy said.

In October, after learning of the new policy, Flaherty wrote to Jeffrey Miller, an NFL vice president and its chief of security. Flaherty noted that some departments "require off-duty officers be able to enforce the law and to react to crimes committed in their presence," and that the "safety of officers and the public requires that the officer be armed," the suit says.

Miller wrote back Oct. 29. He said that while he had "the highest level of respect for people in law enforcement," the NFL decided football stadiums weren't safe when off-duty officers had guns.

"(T)he NFL believes the safest environment for all fans is achieved by limiting the number of firearms and weapons inside stadiums to those required by officers that perform specifically assigned law enforcement working functions and game day duties," Miller wrote.

He said on-duty officers at the games "are specially trained and required to participate in weekly meetings pertaining to pre-game day and game day security and law enforcement planning, strategy, and emergency response procedures and protocols."

Off-duty officers, he wrote, "attend games as spectators. They are unknown to working law enforcement officers. They may not have the same training and do not participate in the weekly preparation meetings."

http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_25172868/minnesota-police-group-sues-nfl-over-no-handgun
 
loneranger said:
None.

The NFL adopted its policy last fall and sent a letter to the teams Sept. 11. The policy said guns were "strictly prohibited" within NFL facilities; the only exceptions were law enforcement personnel assigned to games and private security contractors who were licensed to carry a gun.

People or teams who violate the policy can be fined, suspended or fired, the policy said.

In October, after learning of the new policy, Flaherty wrote to Jeffrey Miller, an NFL vice president and its chief of security. Flaherty noted that some departments "require off-duty officers be able to enforce the law and to react to crimes committed in their presence," and that the "safety of officers and the public requires that the officer be armed," the suit says.

Miller wrote back Oct. 29. He said that while he had "the highest level of respect for people in law enforcement," the NFL decided football stadiums weren't safe when off-duty officers had guns.

"(T)he NFL believes the safest environment for all fans is achieved by limiting the number of firearms and weapons inside stadiums to those required by officers that perform specifically assigned law enforcement working functions and game day duties," Miller wrote.

He said on-duty officers at the games "are specially trained and required to participate in weekly meetings pertaining to pre-game day and game day security and law enforcement planning, strategy, and emergency response procedures and protocols."

Off-duty officers, he wrote, "attend games as spectators. They are unknown to working law enforcement officers. They may not have the same training and do not participate in the weekly preparation meetings."

http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_25172868/minnesota-police-group-sues-nfl-over-no-handgun
Click to expand...
Interesting, so it should be of no surprise to the Minnesota Police Association if this came down in October. Curious as to when they filed suit, and if they're the only police association to do so.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
Waaaa!!!! We're not special enough.
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Yup.

Whambulance3.jpg
 
loneranger said:
He said on-duty officers at the games "are specially trained and required to participate in weekly meetings pertaining to pre-game day and game day security and law enforcement planning, strategy, and emergency response procedures and protocols."
Click to expand...

I seriously wonder about this statement.

Cops are NOT going to show up for weekly meetings . . . not unless they get 4 hrs OT for each and every meeting they attend! This to me sounds like total BS!

Not entirely the same but I worked the BC games (in the stadium) back when Flute was there and can tell you that BC Police runs a top-notch operation. However, all we got was a 15 minute briefing about things to watch for (e.g. attendee with Alzheimer's, another with extremely serious heart condition where Doc advised against going to game (lots of stairs to climb to seats) and person told Doc that if he died while watching a BC game that he was OK with that!, etc.). We had 35K attendees and allowed tailgating on the grounds behind the stadium, so it was no Mickey Mouse operation. Boston, Brookline and Newton PDs worked the roadways around the stadium but BC PD worked in the stadium itself.
 
Tackdriver said:
The article references a law the policy is in violation of. What law they are referencing?
Dave
Click to expand...

Minnesota State Statute 624.714 Here's FAQ link regarding that statute
https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bca-divisions/administrative/pages/permit-to-carry-faq.aspx

scroll down on that page
Can active licensed officers carry in private establishments?
Yes, active licensed peace officers, or security guards acting in the course and scope of employment, may carry firearms in private establishments.
 
I attended the 2003 ALCS at the old Yankee Stadium and I remember some of the guys sitting in front of me carrying concealed. I remember this because a friend of mine wanted us to leave the stadium because we were getting heckled so bad by the Yankee fans. He was afraid we would get into a fight and get beat up in the bleachers. I told him to relax and pointed at the guys with guns and told him they were probably off duty cops. That put him a little more at ease, but I could tell he was scared the entire game. Freakin pussy, needless to say I don't hang around with that coward.
 
loneranger said:
Minnesota State Statute 624.714 Here's FAQ link regarding that statute
https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bca-divisions/administrative/pages/permit-to-carry-faq.aspx

scroll down on that page
Can active licensed officers carry in private establishments?
Yes, active licensed peace officers, or security guards acting in the course and scope of employment, may carry firearms in private establishments.
Click to expand...

Is this the only Minnesota law that covers this? If so, then it doesn't appear to trump the establishments' right not limit access to those with firearms. It say's "MAY" which does not mean "SHALL". In this context it seems to be a reference for a permit holder, that they are not generally restricted by the government when having a license, to take a firearm on private property. It makes no reference to the rights of the establishment. Can Minnesota have a law that requires the police to carry off-duty that technically always makes a carrying officer on-duty or on-call?

Dave
 
Here's the relevant section of the statute in question:

Subd. 17.Posting; trespass.

(a) A person carrying a firearm on or about his or her person or clothes under a permit or otherwise who remains at a private establishment knowing that the operator of the establishment or its agent has made a reasonable request that firearms not be brought into the establishment may be ordered to leave the premises. A person who fails to leave when so requested is guilty of a petty misdemeanor. The fine for a first offense must not exceed $25. Notwithstanding section 609.531, a firearm carried in violation of this subdivision is not subject to forfeiture.
(b) As used in this subdivision, the terms in this paragraph have the meanings given.
(1) "Reasonable request" means a request made under the following circumstances:
(i) the requester has prominently posted a conspicuous sign at every entrance to the establishment containing the following language: "(INDICATE IDENTITY OF OPERATOR) BANS GUNS IN THESE PREMISES."; or
(ii) the requester or the requester's agent personally informs the person that guns are prohibited in the premises and demands compliance.
(2) "Prominently" means readily visible and within four feet laterally of the entrance with the bottom of the sign at a height of four to six feet above the floor.
(3) "Conspicuous" means lettering in black arial typeface at least 1-1/2 inches in height against a bright contrasting background that is at least 187 square inches in area.
(4) "Private establishment" means a building, structure, or portion thereof that is owned, leased, controlled, or operated by a nongovernmental entity for a nongovernmental purpose.
(c) The owner or operator of a private establishment may not prohibit the lawful carry or possession of firearms in a parking facility or parking area.
(d) This subdivision does not apply to private residences. The lawful possessor of a private residence may prohibit firearms, and provide notice thereof, in any lawful manner.
(e) A landlord may not restrict the lawful carry or possession of firearms by tenants or their guests.
(f) Notwithstanding any inconsistent provisions in section 609.605, this subdivision sets forth the exclusive criteria to notify a permit holder when otherwise lawful firearm possession is not allowed in a private establishment and sets forth the exclusive penalty for such activity.
(g) This subdivision does not apply to:
(1) an active licensed peace officer; or
(2) a security guard acting in the course and scope of employment.
Click to expand...
 
I can imagine that most Fed LE branches mandate that their LEOs CCW 100% of their off-duty time. I know that some PDs have this as an official policy as well. Unaware but wouldn't be surprised if some state law somewhere may also require it. The db you arrested last week might well turn up where you are even if you aren't working he may want to express his displeasure about having been arrested! That's why some cops and some departments may have this policy.
 
LenS said:
I can imagine that most Fed LE branches mandate that their LEOs CCW 100% of their off-duty time. I know that some PDs have this as an official policy as well. Unaware but wouldn't be surprised if some state law somewhere may also require it. The db you arrested last week might well turn up where you are even if you aren't working he may want to express his displeasure about having been arrested! That's why some cops and some departments may have this policy.
Click to expand...

I know some FLEO's are required to carry their Blackberry (or possibly iphone, I think they switched contracts) all the time while off duty, but I don't think they're required to carry their firearm. None that I've heard of anyway.
 

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