Army chooses Sig Sauer to build Next Generation Squad Weapon.

TheArizonan said:
One of the great things of being retired? Not giving a damn anymore.

One question though, was this Miley's brainchild? If so, then the stupidity all makes sense. Garbage excuse for a general officer as well as a disgrace to the uniform.
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Hes white and he wants to understand
 
TheArizonan said:
One question though, was this Miley's brainchild? If so, then the stupidity all makes sense. Garbage excuse for a general officer as well as a disgrace to the uniform.
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While Milley was Chief of Staff of the Army when the program was initiated, the champions of the project were James Mattis and Bob Scales.
 
PappyM3 said:
Ha, with 80k psi on tap, it’ll be more energy than 308 I bet. Hopefully the silencer will help keep the muzzle down.

I don’t know if the XM250 has the recoil reduction technology that Sig had in their 338 machine gun.
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Apparently, according to someone who’s actually been able to shoot the XM5, it has the same or lighter recoil than a 6.5 Creedmoor gas gun. That’s good for me. It should be a good deal more controllable on full auto than the ol’ M14.

And I was wrong about the weight of the ammo. It’s about 20-25% lighter than M80A1 because of the case design. And the M80A1 would have the same bullet weight as the issued 6.8, because M80A1 is a light-for-caliber cartridge.
 
😂😂😂
19k PSI increase. Fancy Sig price tag. Complex case design. All for a couple hundred FPS over the 7mm-08. My guess is you could run just a little more pressure in the 7mm-08 (61k psi) and get a little more performance out of it.
 
Spartan65 said:
Accidentally posted in the dupe thread and not the main thread…

Apparently the NGSW is not doing so great.
www.armytimes.com

The not-really Next Generation Weapons Program

The author disputes the reliability of the Army's newest rifle and light machine gun.
www.armytimes.com www.armytimes.com
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There’s so much wrong with this… I don’t know where to start. I’ll get back to it tomorrow. Never trust a modern Australian with anything about guns.

paul73 said:
so, the new 6.8x51 is weaker than both old 7.62 and 5.56? wow.
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No, it’s not.
Michael J. Spangler said:
😂😂😂
19k PSI increase. Fancy Sig price tag. Complex case design. All for a couple hundred FPS over the 7mm-08. My guess is you could run just a little more pressure in the 7mm-08 (61k psi) and get a little more performance out of it.
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You can’t run the extra pressure in the 7mm-08 without going to a new case design anyway, like the Sig bi-metal. And the 6.8 is going to have a slightly better BC.

A few hundred FPS is nothing to sneeze at. A 16” 6.8x51 140gr is 150fps faster than a 24” 7mm-08 140gr.
 
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PappyM3 said:
There’s so much wrong with this… I don’t know where to start. I’ll get back to it tomorrow. Never trust a modern Australian with anything about guns.


No, it’s not.

You can’t run the extra pressure in the 7mm-08 without going to a new case design anyway, like the Sig bi-metal. And the 6.8 is going to have a slightly better BC.

A few hundred FPS is nothing to sneeze at. A 16” 6.8x51 140gr is 150fps faster than a 24” 7mm-07 140gr.
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Negligible difference on the BC.
The 7mm can be pushed faster safely well within the normal pressure limits. Especially with good powders.

I’m not saying that the 6.8 isn’t a good cartridge it’s just that the juice isn’t worth the squeeze. Something they’re seeing now. The platform also being an issue.

I would think they would be better served with a 6.5 offering at a nominal 65k PSI but Sig has to be Sig and the government has to waste money.
 
paul73 said:
ok, then what is was about in the article when they say it cannot get through the armor like 7.62/5.56 does?
or you mean the whole article is BS?
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A lot of it was. But the armor piercing thing was saying that 7.62 and 5.56 tungsten tipped armor piercing ammo can go through level 4 armor at point blank, but 277 fury with a jacketed hunting bullet can’t. So, that somehow means the 277 fury is bad? The civilian testers he was referring to weren’t using similar tungsten 277 fury because it doesn’t exist yet. And they weren’t even using what the army will issue, which I’m guessing will be a steel or hard metal tipped bullet just like M855A1 and M80A1. Those have no problem penetrating level III+ armor, so I’m guessing a similar 6.8 version might have a shot at level 4.
 
Michael J. Spangler said:
Negligible difference on the BC.
The 7mm can be pushed faster safely well within the normal pressure limits. Especially with good powders.

I’m not saying that the 6.8 isn’t a good cartridge it’s just that the juice isn’t worth the squeeze. Something they’re seeing now. The platform also being an issue.

I would think they would be better served with a 6.5 offering at a nominal 65k PSI but Sig has to be Sig and the government has to waste money.
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We’ll see. I do think a 16” 6.5 CM rifle would have been a great stop-gap to issue to 2 riflemen per fire team.

But I think the 6.8 has potential and we should wait and see. I’m not totally sold on the M7. But the M250 seems like an amazing upgrade over the M249. Freakin’ A, it’s lighter than the M249, but has more performance than the M240. That thing, as long as it’s reliable, is a sweet upgrade for the automatic riflemen in squads.
 
PappyM3 said:
We’ll see. I do think a 16” 6.5 CM rifle would have been a great stop-gap to issue to 2 riflemen per fire team.

But I think the 6.8 has potential and we should wait and see. I’m not totally sold on the M7. But the M250 seems like an amazing upgrade over the M249. Freakin’ A, it’s lighter than the M249, but has more performance than the M240. That thing, as long as it’s reliable, is a sweet upgrade for the automatic riflemen in squads.
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Let’s see how it performs. Again I still think they could have gone with a simpler cartridge and been more than happy with the results.
I doubt we’ll see the 6.8 taking over the match world or the tactical world. I doubt Springfield with chamber the M1A in it.

The Sig fanboys will buy it up though.
 
Two points:
1) Haven't we've been here before? Army keeps looking for new rounds, keeps spending billions, comes back to the same conclusion: there is no significant advantage to already existing designs.

2) the writer seems to think that the only reliable operating system is gas impingement one. Last I checked, THE most popular rifle in the world uses a piston operating system. Other arguments include bullet design, tungsten supplies, etc. It appears that the fault lies with anyone but SIG. Did you notice how the author cleverly avoids mentioning SIG. Guess how many times the word "SIG" appears in the article? ZERO! Is it me or does the author is trying to lay blame on everyone but SIG for creating a crappy design?

3) Do you remember SIG creating any rifles beyond the M4 variants prior to 2010? The company has been around for over 150 years and during all that time it was known for its pistols. P210, P220, etc. Rifles? Not one! So how did a company with NO prior experience making battle rifles managed to win the contract?
 
So, let me get this right. Due to the tungsten issue. No production of any black tipped ammo is not possible. Sure am glad we left so much of it in our withdrawal. So, unless we can produce ammo with a steel core to defeat armor. Any new ammo will not be able to penetrate.

So, the testing is not fare. If the gun can not clear debris and fire as needed. Then, changes need to be made. But all that being said. If the big difference is the ammo. Why not change 5.56 and 7.62X51 using the tech as the 6.8. You are at least taking a step forward.

But, I do like the idea that the next time we leave a bunch of weapons. Our enemy would run out of ammo at least at some point.
 
40 Creedmoor fan said:
Two points:
1) Haven't we've been here before? Army keeps looking for new rounds, keeps spending billions, comes back to the same conclusion: there is no significant advantage to already existing designs.
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They’ve tried caseless ammo to reduce weight, but I don’t think they’ve ever tried this increased pressure bi-metal setup before. R&D needs to happen. Without it, we’d still be using black powder and matchlock muskets.
40 Creedmoor fan said:
2) the writer seems to think that the only reliable operating system is gas impingement one. Last I checked, THE most popular rifle in the world uses a piston operating system. Other arguments include bullet design, tungsten supplies, etc. It appears that the fault lies with anyone but SIG. Did you notice how the author cleverly avoids mentioning SIG. Guess how many times the word "SIG" appears in the article? ZERO! Is it me or does the author is trying to lay blame on everyone but SIG for creating a crappy design?
…
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He’s a think tank researcher, and is probably just trying to highlight what he thinks are problems, while trying to reduce perceived bias. But he definitely has bias against the program as he has written a couple other articles last year, dismissing the program as irrelevant.
 
Picton said:
We should just adopt the AK47 and be done with it. Amirite?
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Well, they should probably pump the brakes a little. I wish the army would have less requirements and let manufacturers innovate. Instead we have a rifle with 2 charging handles. Classic modern army.
 
Dench said:
Well, they should probably pump the brakes a little. I wish the army would have less requirements and let manufacturers innovate. Instead we have a rifle with 2 charging handles. Classic modern army.
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"Two charging handles offers our troops more options in this rapidly-changing world, thus improving recruiting and retention for today's youth. Plus, there are tactical considerations to think about as well: if heavy fire on one side of the rifle makes that side charging handle unsafe to operate, the alternate one should be operable. Because you always want to keep the enemy guessing!"
 
Picton said:
"Two charging handles offers our troops more options in this rapidly-changing world, thus improving recruiting and retention for today's youth. Plus, there are tactical considerations to think about as well: if heavy fire on one side of the rifle makes that side charging handle unsafe to operate, the alternate one should be operable. Because you always want to keep the enemy guessing!"
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I saw the video on the XM5 with garandthumb. When he showed the double charging handle thing and said why it was there I think I lost the last tiny bit of hope I had for the Army being cool again. [rofl]

The rationale is "our soldiers are retarded and still need to rack it like it's an M4 or M16." That's what we're dealing with. The thing already has enough weird and goofy shit going on as it is and they just cant help themselves putting on 100% garbage.
 
Full-auto and semi-auto two-part case? Sounds good in a controlled environment. However, with a little grit or fouling in the chamber and they will bitch about this -
 

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Picton said:
We should just adopt the AK47 and be done with it. Amirite?
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I like AK's, but nope. I'd rather we stay with 5.56 and AR platforms for the average rifleman and come up with a better solution for a squad LMG to replace the 249. What benefit is there to moving to platforms that were developed in the late 40's and early 70's? I mean, if we want more/better reliability, we have SCAR H/L and HK416/417...
 
mav said:
I like AK's, but nope. I'd rather we stay with 5.56 and AR platforms for the average rifleman and come up with a better solution for a squad LMG to replace the 249. What benefit is there to moving to platforms that were developed in the late 40's and early 70's? I mean, if we want more/better reliability, we have SCAR H/L and HK416/417...
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I was kinda kidding, lol.

But only kinda.
 

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