Armed Guard or Off Duty Copy for Church Secuirty

[chaser001]

In the wake of Sutherland a few pastors I know have been talking about either hiring a Uniformed armed security guard or an Off Duty Cop to have a visible presence at their services.

I know after the shooting at New Life Church in 2007 that they hired a Off Duty Police vs. the Church Member security team that had been in place prior to the shooting and the pastor there has been advocating other churches do the same.

My question is if I wanted to have someone there 1 day per week (Sunday) for say 3 hrs (9:30 to 12:30) does anyone know what I would be looking at for cost?

Is there a benefit to getting a Private Security Company vs. a Police Detail?

Since I know location means a lot for salary this would be in the Greater Lowell area.

 

[jhblaze1]

Wrong approach entirely.

The correct approach is to encourage all in the congregation to carry to church and to also post signs on the outside that say "Warning: Our Congregation is Armed and Shoots Back".

 

[chaser001]

Wrong approach entirely.

The correct approach is to encourage all in the congregation to carry to church and to also post signs on the outside that say "Warning: Our Congregation is Armed and Shoots Back".

Right now I know at least 10% are carrying on any given Sunday. However, the letter I read from Colorado said that even though their members ended the shooting quickly many people were uncomfortable returning to the church until they knew there was a Police presence. That Uniformed person, to most people in MA, is a symbol of protection.

My main goal is to remove distractions from our church so if someone is worried about their safety, they aren't going to focus on the sermon.

I'm also talking to the Deacon board about offering a Firearms Safety Class on site.

 

[DPR]

In the wake of Sutherland a few pastors I know have been talking about either hiring a Uniformed armed security guard or an Off Duty Cop to have a visible presence at their services.

I know after the shooting at New Life Church in 2007 that they hired a Off Duty Police vs. the Church Member security team that had been in place prior to the shooting and the pastor there has been advocating other churches do the same.

My question is if I wanted to have someone there 1 day per week (Sunday) for say 3 hrs (9:30 to 12:30) does anyone know what I would be looking at for cost?

Is there a benefit to getting a Private Security Company vs. a Police Detail?

Since I know location means a lot for salary this would be in the Greater Lowell area.

4hr minimum at +/- $65/hr with possibly a administration fee (%) added on.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Police details almost universally have a 4-hour minimum. Burdened cost (typically the town adds 10% admin fee) is ~$50/hour.

"Private Security Guards" typically aren't well trained (if at all) in MA as we don't have a separate licensing requirement AFAIK. Basically the normal security companies pay ~$1/hr more for someone with a LTC. Many are rejects from police wannabees. I worked with a number of them when I worked for BC PD and to say I wasn't impressed would be a gross understatement.

 

[not new guy]

Are we really at the point where we need armed guards/cops posted up in planes, schools, churches, stores, manhole cover, etc.? Seems like a stupid overreaction that is aimed more at calming the flock (of sheep) more than actually deterring anything. The problem of course with calming the sheep is that you're also conditioning them to all sorts of stupid crap.

I wish my kids could grow up in the world that I grew up in instead of this shit.

 

[Uzi2]

If this is what this country has come to, then congress and state legislatures need to absolutely mandate a death penalty for anyone shooting up or bombing a place of worship.

Along with a mandatory death sentence, I'd prefer that congregations be well armed and take a little more responsibility for the security of their facilities.

Nobody is going to beat the reaction and response time than those already there on a scene.

 

[Admin]

Hypothetical, if I'm shooting up a building I'm zapping the uniformed guard/leo first. If you guys go the route of an armed or armed guards, I suggest they be plain clothes.

 

[pastera]

Paid target - I'll pass on that job.

An invitation only security ministry that promotes training is a much more effective solution - an attacker doesn't immediately know who is going to return fire. The other positive is that congregants know that there are armed security people but are not certain exactly who so if a person prints, they assume security.

A uniformed guard only makes the ones who have no clue feel better while adding nothing more than a high cost.

 

[kalash]

I don't know about you, but I don't like the idea of armed cops/guards all over the place.

 

[drgrant]

Are we really at the point where we need armed guards/cops posted up in planes, schools, churches, stores, manhole cover, etc.? Seems like a stupid overreaction that is aimed more at calming the flock (of sheep) more than actually deterring anything. The problem of course with calming the sheep is that you're also conditioning them to all sorts of stupid crap.

I wish my kids could grow up in the world that I grew up in instead of this shit.

That point was crossed a long time ago, IMHO. This isn't something that just happened yesterday. Guys were talking about "church security" back on Sigforum in 2004 for chrissake. Maybe its "new" to states like MA, though.

IMHO an insecure building (I mean lets face it, churches are inherently insecure by design) where it's known that there's a crap ton of mostly unarmed Christians in it is a huge, third level soft target, at a bare minimum for durkas or leftists who hate god fearing types.

Reasons churches need security like this:

-Mental health system = total failure = lots of zombies basically walking around;
-Durkas that pretty much hate america (but they REALLY hate christians)
-Media that fluffs/lionizes all the above up/makes nutbags and terrorists famous
-Exceptionally soft target. If I'm a nutbag/durka, the two softest targets are going to be churches or
schools. Whats softer than toddlers or a building with like 75% pacifists in it? (well, at least in america)
-Church egress points typically suck because they tend to be deep structures with a hall like thing with no egress
out the sides- so your victims are trapped and have to move a great distance to get out- and the best egress doors are usually where the bad guy is at or just came from... making escape difficult.

All of that having been said though, ,back when I saw discussions, most of the "church security teams" though, in practice, are not usually of the "uniformed guard" variety, but basically a bunch of ushers or whatever who happen to carry guns, but also take basic security measures like controlling building access, etc. (EG, after mass starts, all the late people have to come through one door, manned by a dude/lady discreetly carrying a gun, etc. )

I also don't like the idea of a "police state" either, but a group of parishoners taking efforts to make the whole place safer? It's a "free space" on the bingo card,
really. This nostrum of a "church being sacred" where stuff like this "doesn't or cannot happen" is an irrational fantasy. It was reasonable to assert 40 years ago that "rocco would never get into a fistfight with his nemesis" inside the church during mass and they would "deal with the issue later" but extremely violent nutbags and durkas don't really care about unspoken church rules in america.

-Mike

 

[Rob Boudrie]

You might want to find out how many LTC holders you have, and arrange for them to get some training.

Visible security is a deterrent as well as making those in-duh-viduals a target.

I wouldn't want to trust my life to someone willing to paint a target on themselves for $12/hour. It's like Groucho not joining a club that would have him as a member.

 

[cockpitbob]

Right now I know at least 10% are carrying on any given Sunday. However, the letter I read from Colorado said that even though their members ended the shooting quickly many people were uncomfortable returning to the church until they knew there was a Police presence. That Uniformed person, to most people in MA, is a symbol of protection.

My main goal is to remove distractions from our church so if someone is worried about their safety, they aren't going to focus on the sermon.

I'm also talking to the Deacon board about offering a Firearms Safety Class on site.

It sounds like you are covering all the bases. Having a gun in uniform will make the more sheep-like members feel safe. Derek's right that he'll drop first, but then you've got multiple people in the pews CCWing to do what needs to be done. If you succeed in getting an on-site class, word should get around that the church isn't a gun-free zone and that might deter a bad guy.

Rob's idea of training is a good one. If the sheep are in the majority there it's hard to tell how they would react.

 

[goodzilla]

Given that guards aren't trained all that well anyway and are expensive, put the call out for volunteers from the congregation to stand guard and provide situational awareness. Having someone from the congregation (vested interest to protect family and community) stand guard outside (or similar vantage point) with a charged cell phone (along with a plan to secure the building and move people) may strike the right balance for the public, and provide the (possibly false) peace of mind you're looking for for the flock. Make it "service" position during the mass, similar to usher, offertory, gifts, etc.

Whether or not that person has a LTC could be advertised or non-advertised, but it'd be a plus. Heck, maybe even make it a rotational position within the ushers.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

A Jewish friend was discretely asked to carry to services.

He later let his temple membership lapse because the leadership was advocating anti-conservative political views.

 

[tuna]

At my last church, we had a group of 3 guys who rotated through every couple weeks. One would be near the sanctuary during service, one was by the kids area and one walked around the parking lot / building.

Guns? Wasn't asked to bring mine, didn't ask permission to. I know several guys carried, but they never told me that. All liability would be on me if I used my weapon, just like any other week when I wasn't "on duty". All we had was radios to pass the word if something happened, or when the coffee was ready in the fellowship hall (first dibs to the defenders), or we had to pee.

Biggest thing is not to make it a fortress, but make it look like it won't be a soft target. I'm not out to save the world, just my family - if the bad guy sees me and "my posse" walking around and decides to hit the Mormons down the street because their "welcome committee" (looks better to sheep instead of "Security" - that scares people, but the bad guys know) is 2 sweet little old ladies with cookies instead of 3 middle aged men with lumpy hips, my job is done.

Actually, our biggest fear was an estranged parent taking one of the kids, especially if we didn't know that John wasn't supposed to be near his son, how do we act/react then?

It's a tough balance, but do the best you can.

 

[n1oty]

The wife and I both carry constantly, including at church. I'm re-evaluating my ccw to possibly include a backup gun.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

hit the Mormons down the street

I'm not sure if Mormons would make a soft target.

 

[cockpitbob]

...their "welcome committee" ...is 2 sweet little old ladies with cookies instead of 3 middle aged men with lumpy hips, my job is done.

Sorry, but some things taken out of context are too good to not have fun with

 

[EMTDAD]

we have security at our church.. I know for sure, there are some with LTCs. Not sure if they carry.. Concealed is concealed.. LOL.. usually wearing black polos.

Mainly because we have kid-specific child care/child worship rooms.. where an estranged parent might decide to try to snatch their child.

 

[EddieA]

My son in law was raised Mormon, he always carries. One of many reasons I approve of him.

I'm not sure if Mormons would make a soft target.

 

[not new guy]

All of that having been said though, ,back when I saw discussions, most of the "church security teams" though, in practice, are not usually of the "uniformed guard" variety, but basically a bunch of ushers or whatever who happen to carry guns, but also take basic security measures like controlling building access, etc. (EG, after mass starts, all the late people have to come through one door, manned by a dude/lady discreetly carrying a gun, etc. )

I also don't like the idea of a "police state" either, but a group of parishoners taking efforts to make the whole place safer? It's a "free space" on the bingo card,
really. This nostrum of a "church being sacred" where stuff like this "doesn't or cannot happen" is an irrational fantasy. It was reasonable to assert 40 years ago that "rocco would never get into a fistfight with his nemesis" inside the church during mass and they would "deal with the issue later" but extremely violent nutbags and durkas don't really care about unspoken church rules in america.

-Mike

Agreed. Parishioners packing pistols makes sense. I don't like the idea of having uniformed and armed guards or cops everywhere though. The downsides outweigh any gains on the deterrent side, particularly when you consider the odds of a shooting actually happening at any given church in America.

 

[Riverside]

Many churches down here in SC are hosting learning seminars led by "Sheep Dog" Safety training. After the massacre at Emmanuel Church, many church leaders became increasingly aware of their vulnerability. They are calling upon "select members" of the congregation to act as security at services. Under SC law, it is illegal to Conceal Carry into a church without express permission of the church authorities. (Get that permission in writing!) This law is just one of many SC CWP laws I don't like. Google Sheep Dog, there's lots of information available.

Best regards.

 

[boiler_eng]

Many churches down here in SC are hosting learning seminars led by "Sheep Dog" Safety training. After the massacre at Emmanuel Church, many church leaders became increasingly aware of their vulnerability. They are calling upon "select members" of the congregation to act as security at services. Under SC law, it is illegal to Conceal Carry into a church without express permission of the church authorities. (Get that permission in writing!) This law is just one of many SC CWP laws I don't like. Google Sheep Dog, there's lots of information available.

Best regards.

My Father In Law had to do that in Ohio as he was working on behalf of the church for some community items. He told the pastor he needed the written permission, and then he got a chuckle out of having to ask the pastor to come out and bring it to him. "Why can't you come in and get it from my office? ........ Oh, yeah I can bring it out."

There was also his first time dealing with the "duty to inform" the police, where he had to call due to a domestic situation involving one of his tenets and he had to disclose to the officer while they were going around the building to see if the guy had jumped out a back window and the officer was confused and then responded "...Thats alright I brought my own."

 

[Riverside]

My Father In Law had to do that in Ohio as he was working on behalf of the church for some community items. He told the pastor he needed the written permission, and then he got a chuckle out of having to ask the pastor to come out and bring it to him. "Why can't you come in and get it from my office? ........ Oh, yeah I can bring it out."

There was also his first time dealing with the "duty to inform" the police, where he had to call due to a domestic situation involving one of his tenets and he had to disclose to the officer while they were going around the building to see if the guy had jumped out a back window and the officer was confused and then responded "...Thats alright I brought my own."

 

[cockpitbob]

Many churches down here in SC are hosting learning seminars led by "Sheep Dog" Safety training. After the massacre at Emmanuel Church, many church leaders became increasingly aware of their vulnerability. They are calling upon "select members" of the congregation to act as security at services. Under SC law, it is illegal to Conceal Carry into a church without express permission of the church authorities. (Get that permission in writing!) This law is just one of many SC CWP laws I don't like. Google Sheep Dog, there's lots of information available.

Best regards.

I just love laws that make groups of defenseless people in enclosed spaces available to bad guys. I didn't realize how bad the gun-free church situation is in the US. 10 states require permission from the church and it's totally illegal in LA.


Edit: Here's an interesting .pdf by the Mennonites on guns in church for security. It's a pretty thoughtful and balanced document that seems to be designed to educate a church's leadership so they can make their own decisions. It's got a bit of a slant against encouraging average people to carry because they may not be trained or have good judgment, but that viewpoint in a document like this can be expected given the liability involved in advocating for "everyone please carry".

 

[boiler_eng]

I just love laws that make groups of defenseless people in enclosed spaces available to bad guys. I didn't realize how bad the gun-free church situation is in the US. 10 states require permission from the church and it's totally illegal in LA.

The laws with respect to carry in MA are much better really than a lot of states. It requires putting on blinders to focus just on the relative limited nature of issues with signage, prohibited areas, etc and ignore the dumpster fire of how the rest of 2a is treated here but I think those parts are better.

 

[weekendracer]

In the wake of Sutherland a few pastors I know have been talking about either hiring a Uniformed armed security guard or an Off Duty Cop to have a visible presence at their services.

I know after the shooting at New Life Church in 2007 that they hired a Off Duty Police vs. the Church Member security team that had been in place prior to the shooting and the pastor there has been advocating other churches do the same.

My question is if I wanted to have someone there 1 day per week (Sunday) for say 3 hrs (9:30 to 12:30) does anyone know what I would be looking at for cost?

Is there a benefit to getting a Private Security Company vs. a Police Detail?

Since I know location means a lot for salary this would be in the Greater Lowell area.

I know of two churches that have set up off-duty/retired/armed services member response teams down here. They did this a while back, not in response to this deal.

 

[snax]

Armed "guards" everywhere to "protect" us completely negate the need for an armed citizenry. Because, "they" know what's "best" for you and your family. It's for SAFETY after all.

 

[browncoat]

The laws with respect to carry in MA are much better really than a lot of states. It requires putting on blinders to focus just on the relative limited nature of issues with signage, prohibited areas, etc and ignore the dumpster fire of how the rest of 2a is treated here but I think those parts are better.

Laws in MA reflect that carry here was designed to be a privilege granted to our betters. Laws in other states reflect our betters trying to make sure the rabble is kept in check