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Armed Guard or Off Duty Copy for Church Secuirty
- Thread starter chaser001
- Start date
Like Derik said , a uniformed guard just ends up being the first one popped.
Not knowing how many people inside are carrying and knowing you may get lit up from every corner of the place is a far more effective deterrent .
Not knowing how many people inside are carrying and knowing you may get lit up from every corner of the place is a far more effective deterrent .
Yeah it's better, as long as you can get past the fact that every LTC holder in MA has a dude with an AXE over their heads that can drop it on you for the slightest infraction and not only destroy your right to carry but even to just merely own guns, based on a chief going "unsuitable!" Sorry, but I can't really get past that. The only thing worse than MA are the virtual no carry states like NJ, MD, etc.
I don't pay attention to most binding signage shit in any state either, unless there's a disabling felony attached on the back of it or a metal detector with a guy who is going to make your life miserable standing behind it. (eg, jails, courthouses, etc. ) I don't think most other people do, either. (they pretend to on the internet, but I think most people who are actually concealing a gun just snicker at the stupid ****ing signs when they walk past them...)
-Mike
The people with the most to protect are the parishioners since their family is in the pews. Those are the people who would be willing to put their lives on the line to protect the congregation. A rent-a-cop, paid $12 an hour would most likely run.
I don't carry in the shower, the gun is in a towel on the counter unless Lady Radtekk is home cuz she's carrying. I don't carry at work, it's virtually impossible to conceal a pack of gum in scrubs, let alone a 1911. Aside from that, I carry EVERYWHERE, sign or not, unless there's a metal detector at the door. Dude with a wand doesn't bother me, ankle carry works just fine.
Smart carry could work.... Have to lose the 1911 and go with a J frame revolver with very thin grips. The LCR grip designs are too thick.
Back on topic. As mentioned before an armed uniform security guard would be useless. The ones I have ran into are totally whacked out and more wannabes and down right scary. Very few banks now a days have uniformed armed guards for obvious reasons.
I think also some basic de-escalation training and pepper spray training could go a long way. More than likely your going to be dealing with situations that involve some domestic dispute or someone who disagrees with the church operation.
Plus some range time to make sure the armed members are all on the same page with gun safety.
Back on topic. As mentioned before an armed uniform security guard would be useless. The ones I have ran into are totally whacked out and more wannabes and down right scary. Very few banks now a days have uniformed armed guards for obvious reasons.
I think also some basic de-escalation training and pepper spray training could go a long way. More than likely your going to be dealing with situations that involve some domestic dispute or someone who disagrees with the church operation.
Plus some range time to make sure the armed members are all on the same page with gun safety.
Kylep427
NES Member
My parents live in Missouri and attend a Southern Baptist Church, all of the Deacons carry and have a security person watching cameras and have communication at all times. They do it in a way, most people don't know. I don't understand why most of the world can't figure out the simple things.
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The "carve outs" are common in states where "shall issue" is a recent concept, whereas in states like NY and MA that have been "may issue" for eons the perception (and reality in some jurisdictions like NYC and surrounding counties, Brookline, Springfield, etc.) is that "carry privs" are for society's elite or connected and therefore there is less need to keep these people "in check".
That writeup missed UT, where a church may register as a "guns prohibited by law without permission" zone; something the Mormon church has done.
A local Baptist minister told me the parking lot at Baptist conventions are actually de-facto gun shows.
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StevieP
NES Member
If I was a crazed lunatic armed with a gun intent on committing mayhem, and approached a church with an armed guard, I'd simply walk up to him, shoot him first, and take his gun before going after everyone else.
Seriously - I hope none of you are signing up to wear the church's security detail sash.
Concealed is FAR more advantageous.
Seriously - I hope none of you are signing up to wear the church's security detail sash.
Concealed is FAR more advantageous.
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They do. Look what happens whenever leftist/ commie governments take power. Among the first victims are those in the religious majority. Be it christians, buddhists, or anybody else who is against "the cause".
At a a minimum... carry yourself. As everywhere else, ultimately you're responsible for protecting yourself and your family at church.
I carry at Mass.
I was carrying at my daughter's Baptism.... Nobody noticed. One time at Easter Vigil, my son dropped his lit candle under the pew and it rolled away. We both dove and crawled after it. After standing up for an while I looked down. My suit coat was askew and there was my OWB carry on my hip for everyone to see..... Nobody noticed. The only people that ever notice I'm carrying are carrying themselves.... That doesn't include cops... They never seem to notice. Massachusetts.....
ETA: Actually, now that I think about it, my son whispered (really loudly like kids do ) "Daddy! I can see your gun!" He was 6 at that time. He's 8 now and has his own gun (rifle).
I carry at Mass.
I was carrying at my daughter's Baptism.... Nobody noticed. One time at Easter Vigil, my son dropped his lit candle under the pew and it rolled away. We both dove and crawled after it. After standing up for an while I looked down. My suit coat was askew and there was my OWB carry on my hip for everyone to see..... Nobody noticed. The only people that ever notice I'm carrying are carrying themselves.... That doesn't include cops... They never seem to notice. Massachusetts.....
ETA: Actually, now that I think about it, my son whispered (really loudly like kids do ) "Daddy! I can see your gun!" He was 6 at that time. He's 8 now and has his own gun (rifle).
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![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
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If the country is going down the route that every school, church, and Walmart needs armed security then we've truly failed as a republic.
Let people who want to protect themselves do it. Stop holding their hands behind their backs when you give them communion.
Let people who want to protect themselves do it. Stop holding their hands behind their backs when you give them communion.
^^^THIS^^^ although I'm not sure I would advertise it..
That reminds me of a day I was grocery shopping in Market Basket and there was a guy who was maybe 70 in the produce section with a full size gun (I think a 1911 but figured it was rude to walk up and look closer) in an OWB just shopping. I just whispered to myself "Nice" and went back to what I was doing. My wife wondered what I was talking about and when I told her on the other side of the store (why risk some crazy overhearing and harassing the nice old man) she had 0 idea that the guy was open carrying maybe 10 feet over from her.
MachineHead
NES Member
The gray man is the smart man.
Thanks all - a lot of great comments here. To answer a few recurring themes:
1. Uniformed Presence - yes, understood that is someone wanted to attack my church that person would be the 1st target, however, that person would likely make us a less appetizing target to a lone wolf (yes the Bible describes people as sheep).
2. Person responsibility - yes I carry all the time, including when I'm preaching and I know at least 10% of the congregation is carrying as well; mainly from years of relationships with members.
3. Developing an organized response plan - this one is a little more difficult. My brother-in-law is the executive pastor at a church in NH that had a written response plan that they also practiced routinely. They were advised by the Church's lawyer to remove it from what they call their operations manual. Actually, they were told to remove any written hostile response plan from all written documentation. The lawyer's rational was that IF something did happen the Church's plan could be used against them in a liability case. He did tell them to have a plan and practice the plan; just never write it down.
4. Protect the children - this is the hardest thing to do. In our current set up we have every child checked in by a parent. When they are checked in both the parent & child receive a label with a transaction code; after service no child is released from class unless the two labels match. That protects them from an estranged parent from taking a kid who is willing to go, but doesn't protect from a forced situation.
Thank you as well for the links to training & other documents. My goal is to make my Church comfortable for anyone to come to regardless of your political affiliation while also protecting my flock. Ultimately trying to fulfill Matthew 10:16
1. Uniformed Presence - yes, understood that is someone wanted to attack my church that person would be the 1st target, however, that person would likely make us a less appetizing target to a lone wolf (yes the Bible describes people as sheep).
2. Person responsibility - yes I carry all the time, including when I'm preaching and I know at least 10% of the congregation is carrying as well; mainly from years of relationships with members.
3. Developing an organized response plan - this one is a little more difficult. My brother-in-law is the executive pastor at a church in NH that had a written response plan that they also practiced routinely. They were advised by the Church's lawyer to remove it from what they call their operations manual. Actually, they were told to remove any written hostile response plan from all written documentation. The lawyer's rational was that IF something did happen the Church's plan could be used against them in a liability case. He did tell them to have a plan and practice the plan; just never write it down.
4. Protect the children - this is the hardest thing to do. In our current set up we have every child checked in by a parent. When they are checked in both the parent & child receive a label with a transaction code; after service no child is released from class unless the two labels match. That protects them from an estranged parent from taking a kid who is willing to go, but doesn't protect from a forced situation.
Thank you as well for the links to training & other documents. My goal is to make my Church comfortable for anyone to come to regardless of your political affiliation while also protecting my flock. Ultimately trying to fulfill Matthew 10:16
I have worked in the Private security industry now for about 6 years, and I can confirm that their is NO mandated training for security officers. An employee simply works under a companies' PI or Watch Guard license that is issued thru the MA State Police. I have talked to a few people on Beacon Hill to change this, but its a non-issue for them, but there seems to be some willingness to do it at some point. Not Holding my breathe......
If I was in charge of Church Security, I would ask to have a regular private security/police patrol the grounds of the Church on a regular basis as my first step.
Secondly, I would identify volunteers who would be willing, if they don't already, to carry their weapons during church services. After that had been done, You would have to identify training courses and programs, and then ultimately launch the program with the help of the congregation, with updated training every year.
Also, away from the the physical security provided, clear and concise response need to be developed for the church. Everything from Fire Alarm activations to Missing Children (Code Adam) to Terrorist Attacks and Active shooter incidents need to be developed with the input of consultants and local emergency officials. An emergency response plan could save your life just as much as a firearm could.....
If I was in charge of Church Security, I would ask to have a regular private security/police patrol the grounds of the Church on a regular basis as my first step.
Secondly, I would identify volunteers who would be willing, if they don't already, to carry their weapons during church services. After that had been done, You would have to identify training courses and programs, and then ultimately launch the program with the help of the congregation, with updated training every year.
Also, away from the the physical security provided, clear and concise response need to be developed for the church. Everything from Fire Alarm activations to Missing Children (Code Adam) to Terrorist Attacks and Active shooter incidents need to be developed with the input of consultants and local emergency officials. An emergency response plan could save your life just as much as a firearm could.....
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Or talk to Steve Hathaway at Mass Firearms School. I expect he could put a very good program together.
Lank
NES Member
What about devices to tip off that a new occupant has arrived after the sermon has began? Maybe a discreet visual indicator that the any of the unsecured entrances have been opened? Could remove some element of surprise. Just trying to help here....
Post Script: This would be part of a layered approach, which includes armed parishioners.
Post Script: This would be part of a layered approach, which includes armed parishioners.
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