I've been looking to upgrade my electronic pistol safe for a more secure and more reliable option. Since a full size Fort Knox rifle safe would make poor night stand, my short list has been the Fort Knox Pistol Safe, The Vline simplex lock safes, and the Gun Vault non-biometric SV500. I like the drop open format of the Gun Vault SV500 but I'd prefer a simplex lock over a electronic lock. However this Forbes article about how Kaba brand simplex locks can easily be defeated with a strong magnet gave me pause to reconsider simplex locks. Five button simplex locks also only have 1,084 possible combinations. I'm guessing not all simplex looks are same and discounting all of them would be like saying all key locks are insecure just because you can use a bump key on a cheap Kwikset door lock. I'm leaning toward the Fort Knox safe but I want see if they had the same issues as the Kaba simplex locks first. If the Fort Knox and VLine have this same magnet flaw then I'll likely go with the Gunvault with an upgraded tubular lock.
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Are simplex locks the best option for a pistol safe?
- Thread starter Jason
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All of these little pistol lock boxes (they aren't safes) can be defeated by nothing more complicated than a big screwdriver. They aren't going to stop any burglar from getting your gun. They are useful for complying with the law and for helping honest people stay honest.
Simplex locks work. They don't need batteries. They don't have cables that break (unlike some GunVaults: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242167).
I've been using a VLine lock box for 20 years. It works. I am under no illusion that it is secure.
Your average smash-and-grab pillhead isn't going to know anything about defeating a lock with magnets. He's just going to pick up your lock box and smash it open.
Simplex locks work. They don't need batteries. They don't have cables that break (unlike some GunVaults: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242167).
I've been using a VLine lock box for 20 years. It works. I am under no illusion that it is secure.
Your average smash-and-grab pillhead isn't going to know anything about defeating a lock with magnets. He's just going to pick up your lock box and smash it open.
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I'd agree with your observations. I acknowledge that a pistol box can be pried open or just be taken to be opened later by some pillhead. However the other group of people that I would be looking to deter, would be curious teenagers that would have access to the house. They would be less likely to pry it open with a screw driver due to fear of being caught but they might watch a few youtube videos to learn how to open it if they were curious. So really I'm looking for maximum deterrence against curious teenagers in a pistol box small enough to be bolted to a nightstand.
I have mine bolted to the floor, and out of plain sight. Slightly more secure. For my more readily available hand gun.
![[grin]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/041.gif "Grin [grin]")
I have mine bolted to the floor, and out of plain sight. Slightly more secure. For my more readily available hand gun.
Mine is bolted down as well. But I doubt the bolts or the body would hold against much of an attack.
Real push-button Simplex locks were approved for gov't security use. I'm not about to say that they can't be defeated, but the real McCoy is likely to be decent enough to meet MGL (as written . . . always subject to a judge "making law up" to say otherwise) and secure your guns. Securing a lockbox to the wall/floor will increase real security as well.
Palladin
NES Member
I have a HandGunsafe, 7-8 yrs old, with a simplex lock. These things were the best made, company went out of business though. It weighs 20+ lbs, I have it bolted to my bed frame, not going anywhere.
I like the Simplex lock, easy, multiple combos, etc. However, nothing on the market today comes anywhere near this thing. Too Bad.
I like the Simplex lock, easy, multiple combos, etc. However, nothing on the market today comes anywhere near this thing. Too Bad.
I have a Fort Knox Pistol Safe. I got it mainly for legal compliance and because I wanted a simplex lock, although, it is probably one of the more "secure" options out there for pistol lock-boxes. The Fort Knox products seemed to be a little better reviewed than Vline, and only a little bit more expensive.
Seriously, how many do you need?
I chose a V-Line Top Drawer for one reason: No batteries to fail. I press my code, turn dial, it opens. Viola. No key to lose/fumble with, no batteries to change, no annoying beep and I can change the combination in seconds if needed.
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This really depends on the application. What may be accepted to keep the entrance door to a confidential area door in a staffed facility (ie, to prevent people from wandering in where they should not, but where there is little to no opportunity to "work the lock") secure would almost certainly not cut it as the lock on a container used to contain classified documents. In fact, S&G mechanical locks are, last I checked, no longer approved for use on GSA containers storing classified material (although installed ones may be grandfathered), with the Kaba-Mas X-07 (or maybe X-10, I'm not up on all the subtle model changes) electronic combination lock.
"Approved for gov't security use" is very imprecise. Tell me it's approved for use on a GSA container for Secret, Top Secret or SCI material and I'll me impressed.
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You do have to understand the level of security that you are getting. 1084 possible combinations isn't a lot. Several years back, my cousin had combination trigger locks on his guns. He had forgotten the combination. The locks had three tumblers, each with 10 numbers on it. So they had 1000 different combinations. While he was racking his brain, trying to remember the combination, I just started at the beginning, trying every possible combination. 000. 001. 002. I had it open in about 10 minutes. A Simplex lock can be opened in the same deliberate fashion.
Simplex locks help keep honest people honest and meet the letter of the law. But they don't provide any significant security.
Palladin
NES Member
Exception
Simplex locks can multiple the combinations by pressing two buttons at once for a single sequence. Example: Press #1 and #4 at the same time, then 2, then 5.
Yes, but I believe that still comes out to 1084 combinations.
http://www.tech-faq.com/how-to-open-a-simplex-lock.html
Palladin
NES Member
Agreed. But the average thief isn't going to wait the hour + to,run thru all those combos! Given the morons which they usually are.
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You can get considerably more with the "half depth press" technique, since each press rotates the wheelpacl 2 units, but it's not as easy as letting the buttons bottom out when you push them.
Most thieves aren't going to. Unless, of course, they can just rip out the box or break into it. And given the construction of most of these lock boxes, the simplex lock isn't the weakest link.
But the OP was worried about a child who just might spend the time to get into it without leaving evidence of breaking it. Further, would it really take an hour to get into it? It didn't take me more than 10-15 minutes to go through 1000 combinations on the trigger lock -- I missed it on the first run through and then started over and opened it.
While I understand what you are saying, it makes no difference. Any lock can be bypassed in time.
Most people will spend hours pondering which safe to purchase only to leave the safe unbolted to anything allowing a perp to just walk off with it and spend all the time in the world trying to get it unlocked, or physically broken into.
Ive had many arguments with management in the past about computer password security. They insist on forcing password changes every 90 days. While this sounds good in theory, in reality when users are forced to change their password frequently they tend to write it down and leave it somewhere close to their computer (the most common place I find them are under the keyboard). If they don't write it down, they tend to just keep adding a number to the end of their current password.
My point here is security is only as good as how easy you intend to make entry. If you want to make entry easy for you, it will be less secure.
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Perhaps, but it's very difficult with some, and there are even some locks that as far as anyone knows, have never been breeched in a surreptitious manner. For example, the Kaba-Mas X-10 is widely believed to be manipulation resistant and impossible to open without either using the combination or leaving evidence. And then there is the extreme difficulty if picking a Medeco of Abloy.
If you want to know what locks are indeed secure, just look at what vending machines are using (and note that the Ace 137 circular lock that was common years ago is virtually never found on a modern vending machine - there is a reason for that).
What I love is when people keep the default combination on their lock.
Enough so that it is impractical for someone to sit down and try all of them until they get the right one.
If you are talking about a random criminal, the normal thief is going to break in, grab what they can and leave. If the "safe" is small/portable and is bolted down, they will try and smash it or try to take it with them. If they can't, they are not going to stick around for 10 minutes let alone an hour to try and crack the combo. They'll leave.
If your personal situation involves trying to keep curious children out (that have hours to attempt to gain access), then maybe you need to rethink your storage strategy to something more secure with a key and/or keeping it on a shelf that is hard for a child to access.
The biggest thing you should do is not store your guns in your bedroom as this is the first place everyone will look (night stand is my first guess, closet is the second).
I consider my pistol box being out of sight better security than the combination. The combination is to comply with MA laws and prevent my 3 year old from getting in WHEN he eventually finds it.
It is bolted down too to ensure it stays out of sight.
It is bolted down too to ensure it stays out of sight.
As mentioned above location of your pistol box is key. If you can locate it in such a way you have access to open it but a theif may have trouble, A finding it, and B getting at it with tools.. IE beetween the night stand and the bed or bolted into a draw of the nightstand pending on how the box opens... Or what ever you may come up with.. As far as curious teenagers and youtube... That's a tuff one. When I was confined to my house after chemotherapy I decied to use youtube to learn how to pick locks! After a few days I could pick the dead bolt on my door. Now I can pick about 90% of locks in under 15 minutes so combo is better but a smart teenager and the internet can do anything!
Where should I keep them so I can get it fast if someone breeches my alarm and ends upstairs while we are home sleeping?
Tripple locked in a basement safe? oops.
Couple killed in home, as they were trying to jump out a window to get to the basement safe.
![[hmmm]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/009.gif "Hmm [hmmm]")
Exactly. Its a balance of convenience and security. The more security you want, the less convenience you will have. The more convenience you want, the less secure it will be.Where should I keep them so I can get it fast if someone breeches my alarm and ends upstairs while we are home sleeping?
Tripple locked in a basement safe? oops.
Couple killed in home, as they were trying to jump out a window to get to the basement safe.
Choose wisely.
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