Are Appleseeds Dead?

[Burgermeister]

Before the ammo crunch, I attended 2 2-day Appleseeds with my son. In "gearing up," I packed 1000 rounds for each of us for each of the 2 Appleseeds. We didn't shoot all of that, but we did shoot a lot. With the scarcity of .22, it would be difficult to pull together 4000 rounds to repeat that season.

We had a great time at the Appleseeds and will return.

 

[jefftk]

The problem is we're comparing Appleseeds to Oranges. Appleseed is fundamentally structured as a educational organization. It's there to teach riflemanship, especially for new or amateur shooters. Its downside is that it only has one grade level - you go from cook to rifleman, and that's it.

Kind of sounds like what you want is another "day at the range" event like Appleseed currently is. An "Appleseed - Advanced". Recycling my previous suggestion, what I think could work well is setting up something like a 3-gun rifle course. I think that would extend nicely in to the appleseed goal, which is supposedly becoming a practical rifleman. Done in an Appleseed event format, you could set up a few different courses throughout the day and I'm sure you could work in some instruction as well. And, if they were really committed to the historic aspect, they could try to set up stages that would replicate certain battles.

 

[TonyDedo]

I've never attended an Appleseed shoot, but I gather they teach basic marksmanship and the use of the sling in supported positions.

In my mind, the natural progression would be to move into NRA Highpower, where those fundamentals of marksmanship are used to their maximum.
It is gear-heavy, but like Jason said: if anybody wants to try it, all they have to do is ask. Mostly all of us have spares.

NOBODY starts in this sport with all the gear, ready to go. We all were that new guy once who wore a work coat, used ball ammo, borrowed a scope to score with, or used the spare rifle.

Having spent a good deal of time at Appleseeds, I have to disagree with your assessment of a natural progression. Not everyone wants to get into serious competition. Not everyone wants to buy specialized equipment, or learn extensive rules, or do all the things that one does when they get into that kind of competition.

That's one of the things that appeals to many about Appleseed, is that you can show up with whatever you have, whether it's a tube fed .22LR or a Mosin or a Garand, and for a couple bucks and a few boxes of cheap ammo, participate in a robust marksmanship activity.

Fortunately for people who do want to participate, there are guys like Jasons out there helping them - I don't want to diminish NRA/CMP or what Jasons does one bit. But it's just not for everyone. That's why you don't see the 1,000s of new shooters who were trained by Appleseed over the last 10 years rushing to NRA and CMP competitions.

Most people that leave their first appleseed event are no where near proficient. Adding a new type of event that is closer to a competition than a classroom would be very positive IMO. It would give these folks an outlet to develop their skills AND provide an outlet for more advanced shooters. There's nothing like a little friendly competition to build skills. I think it would also grow the organization which I think is beginning to stagnate a bit.

I absolutely agree. There needs to be an Appleseed 2.0 for the program to continue to do well. Maybe it's a second level of training for those who've done well at the first level and gotten their Rifleman badges. Maybe it's a "day at the range" like jefftk suggested. Maybe Appleseed takes on pistol shooting, and applies the same format to handguns. Maybe it's a casual competition. But they need something.

Unfortunately when I was involved in the program, there seemed to be little interest in that kind of change. The closest they seemed to get was the "known distance" segment where they went out to 600 yards and started talking about ballistics, wind, drop, etc, but the program was never fully or formally developed (in part because it's hard to secure facilities at those distances).

 

[exo]

If you'd like to do Appleseed again, but something different, attend a Known Distance (KD) Appleseed. I did an instructors-only one up in Dalton, NH this June and it was awesome. Stage by stage full size AQT's out to 400 yards.

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

). But ALL those competitions are set up as competitions, not educational organizations.


. If you show up at one of the above mentioned competitions, you're at the mercy of the match director and staff, and the level of embrace and education is subject to how busy they happen to be that morning and how willing/able/interested they are in helping you (in addition to running their match and shooting it themselves). And let's not forget that the #1 piece of advice a new shooter gets at a shooting competition is a long shopping list of all the equipment and modifications they need in order to compete.

I could not disagree with these statement more from my experience.

Yes, all of the other shooting events are labeled as "competitions" but the free education I have received courtesy of these "competitions" is far greater than any Appleseed or pistol course could ever offer. Nobody has ever scorned me for not having the right equipment or gave me, a shopping list EVER....

On the other hand I have had people offer, free of charge their own equipment, ammo and knowledge without a second thought. I have never, ever seen anyone "at the mercy of the match director" not once.

 

[jasons]

Having spent a good deal of time at Appleseeds, I have to disagree with your assessment of a natural progression. Not everyone wants to get into serious competition. Not everyone wants to buy specialized equipment, or learn extensive rules, or do all the things that one does when they get into that kind of competition.

I think you're over-estimating how serious the competition is. Generally speaking the only thing we're serious about is safety, beyond that we're pretty much just there to have fun and hone our skills. The only real competition is yourself. Sure there are some matches that get a bit more serious (big regional matches, nationals, etc.) but for the most part things are way laid back. We shoot because it's fun and challenging, if it weren't we wouldn't show up either. The rules are pretty basic and mainly just obvious safety stuff. I'll agree that getting the gear can be a bit of hurdle, but if you keep your eyes open and look for deals it's really not that expensive.

That's one of the things that appeals to many about Appleseed, is that you can show up with whatever you have, whether it's a tube fed .22LR or a Mosin or a Garand, and for a couple bucks and a few boxes of cheap ammo, participate in a robust marksmanship activity.

That's a great way to start out and get the basics down. No argument there. If you want to take the next step beyond that, highpower is one option.

Fortunately for people who do want to participate, there are guys like Jasons out there helping them - I don't want to diminish NRA/CMP or what Jasons does one bit. But it's just not for everyone. That's why you don't see the 1,000s of new shooters who were trained by Appleseed over the last 10 years rushing to NRA and CMP competitions.

Thanks, but it's not just me. Every highpower shooter I've ever met has been willing to go out of his or her way to welcome new people to the sport. Lending gear, providing ammo, providing instruction, introducing people, etc. And for what it's worth we do get a decent amount of Appleseed guys who "graduate" to high-power. I saw a ton of guys at Camp Perry this year rocking Appleseed t-shirts.

I absolutely agree. There needs to be an Appleseed 2.0 for the program to continue to do well. Maybe it's a second level of training for those who've done well at the first level and gotten their Rifleman badges. Maybe it's a "day at the range" like jefftk suggested. Maybe Appleseed takes on pistol shooting, and applies the same format to handguns. Maybe it's a casual competition. But they need something.

Unfortunately when I was involved in the program, there seemed to be little interest in that kind of change. The closest they seemed to get was the "known distance" segment where they went out to 600 yards and started talking about ballistics, wind, drop, etc, but the program was never fully or formally developed (in part because it's hard to secure facilities at those distances).

I would guess a lot of that has to do with the fact that other organizations are already doing that sort of thing.

 

[PatMcD]

Having spent a good deal of time at Appleseeds, I have to disagree with your assessment of a natural progression. Not everyone wants to get into serious competition. Not everyone wants to buy specialized equipment, or learn extensive rules, or do all the things that one does when they get into that kind of competition.

That's one of the things that appeals to many about Appleseed, is that you can show up with whatever you have, whether it's a tube fed .22LR or a Mosin or a Garand, and for a couple bucks and a few boxes of cheap ammo, participate in a robust marksmanship activity.

Fortunately for people who do want to participate, there are guys like Jasons out there helping them - I don't want to diminish NRA/CMP or what Jasons does one bit. But it's just not for everyone. That's why you don't see the 1,000s of new shooters who were trained by Appleseed over the last 10 years rushing to NRA and CMP competitions.

I think a big reason why more Appleseed shooters never progress to Highpower is because people tell them there is too much gear to buy, too many rules, to much structure, etc..

If you review my previous post, I made the offer of all the gear for a shooter's first match, so don't let that be a determining factor.

Not everybody who tries it will continue, but I guarantee 100% will not continue if they never try it in the first place.

 

[jasons]

Tell ya what:
The next match I'll be at is up in Hampden on the 17th (that's up near Bangor). I'll supply everything needed to shoot in that match to any Appleseeds graduate (or whatever the term may be). Rifle with zero's, ammo, scope, sling, mat, use my coat if we're the same size. Bring your own lunch.

I make the same offer for a match in my area (either Reading or Nashua or maybe Pelham.) We're pretty much done for the season at Reading but Nashua still has a bunch of matches on the calendar. I'll be at most of them.

 

[Rockrivr1]

It's great news to hear that Appleseed is not dead. I had a lot of fun at the two matches I attended. I just missed Rifleman the first time but improved and earned the patch the second time. It was worth it. From there I've tried Highpower and attended a few matches at Reading. I enjoyed it a lot even though I wasn't all that good and cross shot a few times. I'm glad the shooters next to me didn't get too mad. Then I tried ISPC and really enjoyed that as well. Unfortunately ammo prices and lack of time have kept me out of it, but I do hope to get back to is soon.

 

[hbennett]

Well I wanna learn to be a better shooter and I thought I was told I needed a 10/22.

I only got the ruger American rim fire 22 that I mounted a scope on it.

I could allways borrow my dads 10/22 or just buy my own .

The aforementiond shooter at Leyden who scored rifleman with a bolt-gun used exactly the same setup.
Do not be concerned about that rifle. It is a great tool.
FWIW- yes you are at a slight disadvantage with a bolt-gun, but only to the extent of having a couple operations
to complete during the firing process..again time management.
BUT- you do have the advantage of less moving parts and less "stuff" to go wrong. The Ruger American is a very accurate rifle.
And once you learn the technique, it can fire very quickly.. it all depends on the nut behind the trigger..

Remember, speed without accuracy is nothing.. you cannot miss fast enough.

Have no fear about bringing your rifle to an Appleseed. I guarantee, you WILL become very well versed in your equipment.

The only things I recommend you add, if you don't already have them, is a M1-type sling ..sold online from Appleseed for under $20..
and 1 1/4" sling swivels..

Come and bring YOUR rifle..and a learnable attitude.. We will teach you the rest..

 

[warwickben]

The aforementiond shooter at Leyden who scored rifleman with a bolt-gun used exactly the same setup.
Do not be concerned about that rifle. It is a great tool.
FWIW- yes you are at a slight disadvantage with a bolt-gun, but only to the extent of having a couple operations
to complete during the firing process..again time management.
BUT- you do have the advantage of less moving parts and less "stuff" to go wrong. The Ruger American is a very accurate rifle.
And once you learn the technique, it can fire very quickly.. it all depends on the nut behind the trigger..

Remember, speed without accuracy is nothing.. you cannot miss fast enough.

Have no fear about bringing your rifle to an Appleseed. I guarantee, you WILL become very well versed in your equipment.

The only things I recommend you add, if you don't already have them, is a M1-type sling ..sold online from Appleseed for under $20..
and 1 1/4" sling swivels..

Come and bring YOUR rifle..and a learnable attitude.. We will teach you the rest..

How many mags should I stock up on and how many rounds how fast?

 

[jasons]

...and cross shot a few times.

Everybody cross fires at some point. A couple years ago Pat and I were shooting the Hearst Doubles match out at Perry (no idea how he got stuck with me.) My very first shot of the day? Cross fire on the next target over. It happens.

 

[Lank]

PLEASE i hope these events dont go away.

 

[Burgermeister]

I have a basic question--what is the typical rifle shot at an NRA/CMP event? AR15, M1A, Garand? Iron sights?

 

[josh2600]

We all were that new guy once who wore a work coat, used ball ammo, borrowed a scope to score with, or used the spare rifle.

What do you usually wear for a high power event?


edit: I hope that wasn't taken as snide or anything, honest question.

 

[jasons]

I have a basic question--what is the typical rifle shot at an NRA/CMP event? AR15, M1A, Garand? Iron sights?

Probably about 95% AR15. Even most of the match rifles are built on an AR receiver. You'll see a few M1A shooters here and there and once in a great while a Garand shooter will show up.

 

[headednorth]

I was at the Harvard Appleseed last weekend and I had a blast. (It was my first.)

One of the biggest things I came away with was the use of the sling. I had never used a sling before and using one correctly made a huge difference to me. You'd miss out by attending an Appleseed without one, imo at least.

One thing that I wish I had brought were elbow pads. We spent a good amount of time in the prone position and my elbows are still a bit tender and scabbed.

An AQT is 40 rounds, so if youre bringing a 10/22 or something similar (dont know what the Ruger American uses for mags. 10/22 mags?) , four mags allows you to shoot without reloading in the middle.

eta- I believe I went through just under 1k rounds over the two days.

 

[josh2600]

Probably about 95% AR15. Even most of the match rifles are built on an AR receiver. You'll see a few M1A shooters here and there and once in a great while a Garand shooter will show up.

That's interesting, I figured it'd be all bolt gun.

 

[jasons]

What do you usually wear for a high power event?

Most guys will eventually spring for a purpose-made shooting coat of some sort. Could be anything from one of those old school green canvas coats that you can find for under $100 bucks up to an $800 custom fitted Monard. The majority go with something more in the middle like a Creedmoor Hardback.

- - - Updated - - -

That's interesting, I figured it'd be all bolt gun.

Depends really. You'll see more bolt guns at a midrange prone or long range match. Across the course matches are dominated by ARs.

 

[hbennett]

I think a big reason why more Appleseed shooters never progress to Highpower is because people tell them there is too much gear to buy, too many rules, to much structure, etc..

If you review my previous post, I made the offer of all the gear for a shooter's first match, so don't let that be a determining factor.

Not everybody who tries it will continue, but I guarantee 100% will not continue if they never try it in the first place.

FWIW- I was the recipient of a LOT of that generosity back in the 90's when I took up HP shooting for a bit. My intent was to learn to be a better shooter, which I did, to a certain extent. I found the HP guys (and ladies) to be my kind of people, and the competitions were lots of fun. Getting a CMP Garand didn't hurt either. The HP folks at HSA and others in the NEHPRL are second to none IMHO, truly great folks. I took several years off for personal reasons, career and such.

I first attended an Appleseed out of curiosity, I too wanted to learn to be a better shooter, as I was not much better than a mediocre HP shooter.. Well Appleseed changed some of that.. I learned where my knowledge gaps were and worked on them.. much less expensively with a .22 than with surplus garand ammo, I might add. I built my first LTR using a second-hand 10/22.. tech sights..sling swivels..not really super expensive.. After I scored rifleman the first time, I made it a personal goal to start adding to the difficulty factor.. I switched to a marlin bolt-gun outfitted with Tech Sights.. the rig probably set me back about $250.. again not a lot of $$.. I remember being impressed by the HP shooters firing bolt-guns that I once saw at a match in Chickopee..I wanted to see if I would be capable of doing that..The last time I qualifed was during a Winterseed.. cold..raw..snow..


The point is, you can challenge yourself anyway you want to...shoot a 210...next time work toward a 220..then a 239 like the young lady did last weekend..or if you are a real nut-case like me, shoot an Appleseed during a tropical storm..or in the middle of a winter cold-snap.. OR.. learn to instruct others.. think you know your stuff.. nothing like trying to impart that knowledge on others to test that theory.

Appleseed will teach you the basics..of position..breathing ..trigger control..steady hold factors.. It's a lot of stuff to learn at once .. We refer to it as drinking frrom a firehose. What YOU do with it is UP to YOU..

I may want to take up HP again.. I have plenty of fond memories of attending matches .. and I would REALLY like to see how much Appleseed made me a better shooter.. I know what I was capable of back then.. I expect I might do a bit better today.. and targets don't lie.. Having expierenced both worlds, I believe a HP match to be an extention of the Appleseed experience..a skills-check, if you will..and another means of continuous self-improvement.

Also, in my limited experience folks seem to get hung up with "the gear". I find this in many disciplines of life.. True, spending BIG $$ on a fancy scope.. or a better trigger.. or some other whiz-bang crutch will probably improve your score..but imagine how much MORE it would improve your score if you learn how to USE the tool before you figure out how to make it better..focus on the SKILL and not the gear. I have a fancy Nikon scope on one of my rifles.. but I am making my son qualify with iron sights before he can use it.. why.. IMHO he needs to learn the basics..and Irons don't fog..or run out of batteries..The greatest generation marched across Europe and the Pacific with iron sights..they work..YMMV.. Time and time again at Appleseed, we get live demonstrations of the KISS principal..the more complex the the gear, the higher probablity for it to fail.. and it does..and it frustrates the attendee..and takes away from the experience..Mr. Murphy seems to attend most Appleseeds as a walk-on..

One of Appleseed's goals is to give a new shooter the tools to be an effective 4 MOA shooter with a rack grade rifle and ball ammo.. if the rifle is capable of 4 MOA, the shooter should be too.. And for those that don't know.. 4 MOA is roughly 4" at 100 yds.. not stellar by any means.. but 4 MOA means the money shot on a deer at 200 yds for a hunter.. and If I am not mistaken, about 500 yds. for targets that shoot back...At the 25 meter range that means a 1" square..a postage stamp.

Ask yourself honestly.. can you set a 1" target out to 25M (82ft.) and hit it consistently with your rifle and the setup you currently have?

Do you want to learn how?

Come to an Appleseed..

 

[jefftk]

How many mags should I stock up on and how many rounds how fast?

Ruger american rifle uses the same as the 10/22 correct? In which case: 4 10-round magazines. A full AQT target is 40 rounds.
So far as time, the way Harvard runs it you do the whole target in 4 minutes. Thats 20 shots prone, 10 kneeling/sitting and 10 standing. For me, if I got really crunched for time I probably ended up doing the last 10 rounds standing in about 20-30 seconds.

 

[hbennett]

PLEASE i hope these events dont go away.

They won't if folks come out to attend them..

 

[hbennett]

Ruger american rifle uses the same as the 10/22 correct? In which case: 4 10-round magazines. A full AQT target is 40 rounds.
So far as time, the way Harvard runs it you do the whole target in 4 minutes. Thats 20 shots prone, 10 kneeling/sitting and 10 standing. For me, if I got really crunched for time I probably ended up doing the last 10 rounds standing in about 20-30 seconds.

Be aware also, the target size is related to position for the AQT..
Prone positon targets are smallest as they simulate 300yd and 400yd targets respectively. Both represent 20" targets at those distances .. and are roughly 1.75" and 1.25" respectively
Sitting position targets simulate a 20" target at 200yd ..thats at 2.5" target.
Standing positoin targets simulate a 20 in target at 100 yds...thats about a 5" target..
Most folks have little trouble hitting the standing targets consistently.. even when attempting their best impression of firing a belt-fed when they get into the time crunch.

Add time constraints and things start to get interesting.
Time constraints add artificial stress.. which helps to show what you DONT know..

Like any sport, repetition helps to develop speed..

Do anyting enough times and you WILL learn how to do it
better and faster..

Like I said .. you WILL learn your equipment..

I have yet to meet a shooter who has completed a weekend long Appleseed who said
it wasn't worth the time, or the experience.. There MAY be some, but I have yet to meet one.

At the end of the Harvard 8/2- 8/3 event, I made it a point of asking every shooter if they
felt it was worth the experience..All were sun-burnt, or wind-burn and tired. Some had sore muscles..
Some missed qualifying by only a few more solid hits on their targets.. but ALL said that
they were definitely glad that they came.. Why, because each one improved their ability..
some only by a little..one by a HUGE amount..and that wasn't the one who shot the 239..
We knew that she was an awesome shooter when she started..and we helped her improve in a couple of areas..
time management mostly.. but even she had a great time.

 

[dcmdon]

I'm a huge HUGE proponent of Appleseeds. I do at least one every year. It helps to correct the bad habits that I develop over the course of the year.

At an appleseed they first introduce you to the fundamentals, then they repetitively HAMMER htme into you until it becomes second nature. I'm talking the real stuff. NPOA, breathing, trigger squeeze, follow through, sight alignment and sight picture.

A day or weekend at appleseed will. WILL make you a better service rifle shooter. There is no question about it. EVERYBODY gets something out of it.

My wife and I do them together. Its a high quality time day. Ha. She made Rifleman last year with a tech sighted, shillen barreled, kidd triggered gun I built for myself, but ended up giving to her. Its an amazing gun. And she did a great job with it.

I shoot a plastic stocked base model carbine with a skinny barrel. All that I've done to it is install Tech Sights and do a DIY trigger job from rimfirecentral.com. Oh and I added a plastic extended mag release I got on Amazon Prime for $6.

One thing I also did was sand the edges of the mags to knock off any high points. My mags all drop free now when you hit the release. That saves a TON of time when shooting for score.

Since I made Rifleman, I've tried to do it with successively more difficult guns. After the 10/22 I went to a stock M&P 1522. That was a non event. It ran great and was more accurate than I figured it would be.

Then I took my 10.5 inch barreled AR15 and stuck a .22 conversion in it and shot it. That worked also. I was surprised to make rifleman with that, but it had a Geissele trigger in it, so what it lacked in mechanical accuracy, it probably made up for in practical accuracy. All of these guns had iron sights.

I'm hoping to try next with a bolt gun.

 

[Christian]

I'd love to attend another, I did my first last year in Leyden.

I had just picked up a 22 shortly before but it didn't have attachment points for a sling. One of the instructors was nice enough to lend me one of his 10/22s for the weekend. Great bunch of folks.

 

[NH-GP100]

I have taken a patch multiple times with my Ruger American Rimfire (full size .22lr w/3-9x40 scope set to 6x). One was a 230 - with only 39 shots (I start the aqt prone)

I continue to do appleseeds for a number of reasons, but mostly for reinforcement and training.

You need 4x 10 round mags but I recommend 5 in case one fails. It can be pretty easy to get sand/dirt in them if your rushing.

I ha e basically turned the RAR into my all purpose .22 target rifle. The scope is mounted on a set of Leopold elivated rimfire rings that work very well for me with the high comb insert, and provide enough clearance for a Williams reciber sight for RAR that mounts in the D&T sight mount. I then had the front dovetailed and put a lyman globe up front. I have been shooting pretty respectable scores with that setup at the clubs rimfire irons only matches (2nd in standings for last month, 3rd overall of 14 shooters). All I need to do is swap combs, check zero to make sure nothing moved and I can do optics or irons with no effort at all. I can keep a dime sized group off the bench with it using CCI SV, so this is a pretty accurate setup for the cost.

Anyway, next time out I am gonna go irons only. Time to step up the game.

Appleseed is awesome. Do It.

 

[dcmdon]

To you MA folks. The appleseed site has you look up events by state. If you are anywhere in the Boston Metro area, don't forget to check the NH dates. They typically run an event or two at a club in Southern NH that is very close to the border. I can't remember the name, but youget my point.

Don

 

[NH-GP100]

Pelham. They are doing one at monadnock in sept as well, that is my likely next one

 

[MetalgodZ]

I've been out of action with a little one this summer, but I'm hoping to get back to them this fall, even if just for the last Leyden one before snow flies.

As for location...If the MA dates don't work out for you, southern/central MA folks can hit up the CT ones, western MA folks can try Coxsackie or Saratoga, and northern MA folks would do well to try the NH or VT full-range shoots, regardless.

 

[noddaduma]

Where is the nearest Appleseed held which goes out to an actual 600 yards?

The talk of .22 rifle selection reminds me that my biggest turnoff to participating in Appleseed shoots since moving to New England is that the fundamental premise -- learning 600 yard riflemanship -- is sidestepped.

I was a 600 yard shooter in the desert (with Appleseeds held at our range), so of course I understand smaller targets at shorter distances are *similar* to 600 yards, but... telling that to Appleseed students and giving them the confidence to shoot at 600 yards in an effective caliber are two different things entirely.