Advice on a first rifle from a friend who knows...

[CambridgeGuy]

We are talking about a 25-cent piece here, correct? It is impossible to even SEE that at 1000yds without an astronomy telescope. To hit it on call is IMPOSSIBLE. PERIOD.

Really? Because here's a link to an article about a USMC Scout Sniper, in Iraq, with the longest confirmed kill in the war. This is confirmed at over 1,000 yards. UNKNOWN distance (as opposed to my friend practicing at a known distance of 1,000 yards - which is far easier). In this instance, multiple rounds fired. All rounds on target - while this Marine was under the threat of Mortar attack.

But I suppose this Marine must have had his astronomy scope with him, since he can't see anything at 1,000 yards?

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-31597.html

Perhaps he was shooting a .50 BMG (since people seem to insist that .308 effective range is maxes out at 1,000 yards)? Nope. He was shooting .308.

CambridgeGuy- there are some shooters here who know what they are talking about when it comes to those distances. It's just not do-able.

I'm wondering if any of those people were active duty USMC scout snipers for well over a decade?

Now I've seen people exaggerate all kinds of things in my life. I don't put it past most anyone to over-sell their abilities. But frankly, my experience with USMC veterans suggests strongly otherwise. They may exaggerate all kinds of other things in their life, but when he talks about shooting, he's not messing around. I'm taking what he says to the bank. End of story.

As an aside, even if I did think he was full of shit (which I don't), the guy was in combat for ten years - I wouldn't question him about what he can or cannot / did or did not do. I'm just happy for the opportunity to say thank you.

 

[KMM696]

"Advice on a first rifle from a friend who knows... "

Well, if it's a first rifle, and I can't count on the taxpayer to buy ammo for it, I'm recommending a 22LR.

Full size, bolt action, good glass on it - Savage, CZ, Ruger, whoever. Figure out what ammo it likes at 50 feet, and then start moving the targets back until they hit the 100 yd line. Or the 150.

Most cost effective way to learn, if .gov or .mil isn't footing the bill.

Then put together a 700.


".....and now, back to the train wreck already in progress......"

 

[MRJ]

The only thing worse than a know it all pogue - is a know it all pogue
from cambridge...P2A just told you he's an Army schooled sniper with 2-tours in
Iraq and that your make believe friend isn't making hits on quarters at 1,000yds....


Maybe your friend meant inches 1,000 inches!!!


Now, don't make me post again.

 

[Eye5600]

Even the Coriolis effect, the spin of the Earth comes into play."

Let's see. Suppose you are at the North Pole. The target is 1000 yards away and circles you once a day. The target's path is 12,566 yards.

There are 86,400 seconds per day, so the target moves 12,566 / 86,400 = .1454 yards per second.

Average velocity to target may be 1800 fps or 600 yards per second, so flight time is perhaps 1.2 seconds.

The rotation of the earth causes the target to move about .17 yards, or about half a foot while the bullet is in flight.

So yes, the Coriolis force is important, and if you take your gun to Oz, you better re-zero before you go hunting.

It would be less at lower latitudes, I think, disappearing at the equator.

 

[bpm990d]

Well you can always post this on SOC.NET if you want to hear it from others.

B

 

[Mike-Mike]

Ok I can hit a quarter at 1000yds! All i have to do is glue about 9000 quarters together on a 4x8 sheet of plywood. Then after about 5-27 shots with a good spotter. I'll hit a quarter!

 

[Admin]

Really? Because here's a link to an article about a USMC Scout Sniper, in Iraq, with the longest confirmed kill in the war. This is confirmed at over 1,000 yards. UNKNOWN distance (as opposed to my friend practicing at a known distance of 1,000 yards - which is far easier). In this instance, multiple rounds fired. All rounds on target - while this Marine was under the threat of Mortar attack.

But I suppose this Marine must have had his astronomy scope with him, since he can't see anything at 1,000 yards?

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-31597.html

Perhaps he was shooting a .50 BMG (since people seem to insist that .308 effective range is maxes out at 1,000 yards)? Nope. He was shooting .308.



I'm wondering if any of those people were active duty USMC scout snipers for well over a decade?

Now I've seen people exaggerate all kinds of things in my life. I don't put it past most anyone to over-sell their abilities. But frankly, my experience with USMC veterans suggests strongly otherwise. They may exaggerate all kinds of other things in their life, but when he talks about shooting, he's not messing around. I'm taking what he says to the bank. End of story.

As an aside, even if I did think he was full of shit (which I don't), the guy was in combat for ten years - I wouldn't question him about what he can or cannot / did or did not do. I'm just happy for the opportunity to say thank you.

There is a huge difference between seeing a quarter and hitting it at 1000 yards and seeing and hitting a body at 1000 yards. I've scored in the 190's at 1000 yards with irons.

Are you sure he said a quarter?

 

[PatMcD]

I'm now thinking "a quarter" might be some sniper-talk. Maybe like a quarter of a man-sized sillouette? As in "I'm going to put a round into the lower left quarter of that target".

CambridgeGuy- I'm trying to give you an out here. An 1-1/2" target at 1000yds? Not going to happen. I respect your friend and his service, but he's putting you on.

 

[ochmude]

I'm now thinking "a quarter" might be some sniper-talk. Maybe like a quarter of a man-sized sillouette? As in "I'm going to put a round into the lower left quarter of that target".

CambridgeGuy- I'm trying to give you an out here. An 1-1/2" target at 1000yds? Not going to happen. I respect your friend and his service, but he's putting you on.

That sounds plausible. As Derek said, a $.25 piece is a heck of a lot smaller than a fully grown adult male. Even if you could actually see the quarter, mirage would make it impossible to pinpoint exactly where it really is. But hey, we've all caught that big fish at least once in our lives.

 

[sgtdemeo]

Yea, i am gonna call shananagans on this one. But i don't think the op is gonna hear it, from any of us. Oh, well.

 

[CambridgeGuy]

I'm now thinking "a quarter" might be some sniper-talk. Maybe like a quarter of a man-sized sillouette? As in "I'm going to put a round into the lower left quarter of that target".

CambridgeGuy- I'm trying to give you an out here. An 1-1/2" target at 1000yds? Not going to happen. I respect your friend and his service, but he's putting you on.

I will ask him to elaborate on what he meant and how it's possible - but I am sure he said a quarter. He mentioned it in passing - so I have no idea whether he can hit a quarter consistently. keep in mind, this wasn't the focus of our conversation (the focus was on him suggesting a good rifle for me to learn to shoot longer range with). I didn't really get into this passing comment in any detail - and he certainly wasn't bragging. I emailed HIM to ask him a question, and he was answering it. I asked about accuracy at different ranges and potential hits.

But I've been reading, and it doesn't seem too crazy to me. Here's a link to a guy who shot a 5-shot 3 inch group at 1,000 yards. This guy has been "competing" for 9 years, but this isn't his job and he's not a professional. Just an accomplished amateur. My friend is a true professional, with years of experience. A quarter is what - 3/4 of an inch? Doesn't seem nuts to me that he could hit it. I would certainly agree that nobody is going to hit a quarter at 1,000 yards with every shot - but it doesn't seem at all crazy to me that he would practice at hitting one, and likely hit one reasonably often.

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/tag/1000-yard/

What I take issue with is NOT people's good faith disagreement with what's possible and what's probable. It's the following;

(1) People's tone when referring to a US Marine with ten years of service. Whether somebody thinks he's full of it or not, saying he's "blowing smoke" in a public forum with virtually no facts other than a passing secondhand story does not sit well with me. He's a veteran for heaven's sake! As far as I'm concerned, this guy (and every single veteran on this board and elsewhere, ever) deserves a HUGE benefit of the doubt. Blame me if you like for being naive or not relaying more facts, but come on. As I understand it, Honor and integrity are pretty important to Marines and other service people, and I can't believe some of this stuff I'm hearing! I am not easily upset, but I DO NOT like anyone talking about a guy who protected ALL of our freedom and risked his own life to do so unless they know a LOT more than I possibly could have posted here and are damned sure they are right.

(2) This was a passing claim, buried in an hour long phone conversation between a decorated USMC scout sniper and a novice shooter (me), which I passed along to my friends on this board solely in the interest of sharing information. That doesn't mean he wasn't being honest.

 

[CambridgeGuy]

The only thing worse than a know it all pogue - is a know it all pogue
from cambridge...

Yeah. I couldn't find a place in "burlington" - had to settle for Cambridge.

 

[P2A]

I will ask him to elaborate on what he meant and how it's possible - but I am sure he said a quarter. He mentioned it in passing - so I have no idea whether he can hit a quarter consistently. keep in mind, this wasn't the focus of our conversation (the focus was on him suggesting a good rifle for me to learn to shoot longer range with). I didn't really get into this passing comment in any detail - and he certainly wasn't bragging. I emailed HIM to ask him a question, and he was answering it. I asked about accuracy at different ranges and potential hits.

But I've been reading, and it doesn't seem too crazy to me. Here's a link to a guy who shot a 5-shot 3 inch group at 1,000 yards. This guy has been "competing" for 9 years, but this isn't his job and he's not a professional. Just an accomplished amateur. My friend is a true professional, with years of experience. A quarter is what - 3/4 of an inch? Doesn't seem nuts to me that he could hit it. I would certainly agree that nobody is going to hit a quarter at 1,000 yards with every shot - but it doesn't seem at all crazy to me that he would practice at hitting one, and likely hit one reasonably often.

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/tag/1000-yard/

What I take issue with is NOT people's good faith disagreement with what's possible and what's probable. It's the following;

(1) People's tone when referring to a US Marine with ten years of service. Whether somebody thinks he's full of it or not, saying he's "blowing smoke" in a public forum with virtually no facts other than a passing secondhand story does not sit well with me. He's a veteran for heaven's sake! As far as I'm concerned, this guy (and every single veteran on this board and elsewhere, ever) deserves a HUGE benefit of the doubt. Blame me if you like for being naive or not relaying more facts, but come on. As I understand it, Honor and integrity are pretty important to Marines and other service people, and I can't believe some of this stuff I'm hearing! I am not easily upset, but I DO NOT like anyone talking about a guy who protected ALL of our freedom and risked his own life to do so unless they know a LOT more than I possibly could have posted here and are damned sure they are right.

(2) This was a passing claim, buried in an hour long phone conversation between a decorated USMC scout sniper and a novice shooter (me), which I passed along to my friends on this board solely in the interest of sharing information. That doesn't mean he wasn't being honest.

Alright guy, you're a f-ing retard. I dont care much for story tellers or people who who no idea what their talking about yet do it anyways. You apparently have no experience shooting distance or people. A mansize target is 40x20in, not 1 inch. Well within the capabilities of the gun. Arguing a quarter at 1000m is diffrent, I know youve never looked through a rifle scope at that distance, let alone at a target or person, but at 600m you wouldnt be able to clearly see a quarter. Add 400m to that and you lose allot of detail. I am no longer in the military today, I am in Iraq working for another agency and I am here for my reputation and expertise. I know what Im f-ing talking about. Having been there done this job in combat, being a professional at this and having taught sniper skills and tactics to a wide range of people I tend to know my shit. Or the fact Ive played a part in developing the next generation of sniper tactics. For those who know me on this message board when I speak it is of fact and first hand experience, unlike some people who pretend to know, that have never done it but speak of combat training when they have never been in the situation( you know who you are). The Army claims the M24's max effective is at 800m, the USMC is 1000m, most belive the Army is closer but as everything it is shooter dependent. This is on a man size target, 40inx 20in. Not a quarter, as I said before that that is not nearly within the capabilities of the .308 but also of military .50 systems that the USMC and regular Army employ as they are 2-3moa guns. Back to my original point your making yourself out to be an a**h*** defending grandiose scientifically impossible statements with the equipment in question. Hand built competition shit with great glass, yeah maybe M118lr and a M40 sorry isnt gonna happen. But hey what do I know? Just let it rest, dont post this bullshit again; everyone is laughing at you.

 

[Supermoto]

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/tag/1000-yard/

Those aren't exactly sniper rifles, dig difference in the inherent accuracy of those benchrest rifles vs. a sniper rifle

What I take issue with is NOT people's good faith disagreement with what's possible and what's probable. It's the following;

(1) People's tone when referring to a US Marine with ten years of service. Whether somebody thinks he's full of it or not, saying he's "blowing smoke" in a public forum with virtually no facts other than a passing secondhand story does not sit well with me. He's a veteran for heaven's sake! As far as I'm concerned, this guy (and every single veteran on this board and elsewhere, ever) deserves a HUGE benefit of the doubt. Blame me if you like for being naive or not relaying more facts, but come on. As I understand it, Honor and integrity are pretty important to Marines and other service people, and I can't believe some of this stuff I'm hearing! I am not easily upset, but I DO NOT like anyone talking about a guy who protected ALL of our freedom and risked his own life to do so unless they know a LOT more than I possibly could have posted here and are damned sure they are right.

(2) This was a passing claim, buried in an hour long phone conversation between a decorated USMC scout sniper and a novice shooter (me), which I passed along to my friends on this board solely in the interest of sharing information. That doesn't mean he wasn't being honest.

Is just such an ridiculous claim. I understand your need to defend you friend and we all appreciate his service, but somethings just can't be done

 

[Kalahari]

(1) People's tone when referring to a US Marine with ten years of service. Whether somebody thinks he's full of it or not, saying he's "blowing smoke" in a public forum with virtually no facts other than a passing secondhand story does not sit well with me. He's a veteran for heaven's sake! As far as I'm concerned, this guy (and every single veteran on this board and elsewhere, ever) deserves a HUGE benefit of the doubt. Blame me if you like for being naive or not relaying more facts, but come on. As I understand it, Honor and integrity are pretty important to Marines and other service people, and I can't believe some of this stuff I'm hearing! I am not easily upset, but I DO NOT like anyone talking about a guy who protected ALL of our freedom and risked his own life to do so unless they know a LOT more than I possibly could have posted here and are damned sure they are right.

There's a difference between respecting a soldier and blindly believing everything he or she says. While I'm someone who gives others the benefit of the doubt, the overwhelming evidence is against this guy. I am more than appreciative of his service to our country, but that doesn't mean I'm going to ignore a lot of evidence against him. He may be telling the truth, but from my point of view, the evidence swings the other way.

 

[weekendracer]

I will ask him to elaborate on what he meant and how it's possible - but I am sure he said a quarter. He mentioned it in passing - so I have no idea whether he can hit a quarter consistently. keep in mind, this wasn't the focus of our conversation (the focus was on him suggesting a good rifle for me to learn to shoot longer range with). I didn't really get into this passing comment in any detail - and he certainly wasn't bragging. I emailed HIM to ask him a question, and he was answering it. I asked about accuracy at different ranges and potential hits.

But I've been reading, and it doesn't seem too crazy to me. Here's a link to a guy who shot a 5-shot 3 inch group at 1,000 yards. This guy has been "competing" for 9 years, but this isn't his job and he's not a professional. Just an accomplished amateur. My friend is a true professional, with years of experience. A quarter is what - 3/4 of an inch? Doesn't seem nuts to me that he could hit it. I would certainly agree that nobody is going to hit a quarter at 1,000 yards with every shot - but it doesn't seem at all crazy to me that he would practice at hitting one, and likely hit one reasonably often.

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/tag/1000-yard/

What I take issue with is NOT people's good faith disagreement with what's possible and what's probable. It's the following;

(1) People's tone when referring to a US Marine with ten years of service. Whether somebody thinks he's full of it or not, saying he's "blowing smoke" in a public forum with virtually no facts other than a passing secondhand story does not sit well with me. He's a veteran for heaven's sake! As far as I'm concerned, this guy (and every single veteran on this board and elsewhere, ever) deserves a HUGE benefit of the doubt. Blame me if you like for being naive or not relaying more facts, but come on. As I understand it, Honor and integrity are pretty important to Marines and other service people, and I can't believe some of this stuff I'm hearing! I am not easily upset, but I DO NOT like anyone talking about a guy who protected ALL of our freedom and risked his own life to do so unless they know a LOT more than I possibly could have posted here and are damned sure they are right.

(2) This was a passing claim, buried in an hour long phone conversation between a decorated USMC scout sniper and a novice shooter (me), which I passed along to my friends on this board solely in the interest of sharing information. That doesn't mean he wasn't being honest.

Not saying anything about you or your friend. Some of us have heard so many tall tales that even the occasional guy who can actually put up has to prove it.

I just want the guys scope

Edit: Reading the article you posted, the pending RECORD is a 3" group. Shooting what looks like somthing out of a space movie. Um, I'll go along with the others and say hitting a quarter on command seems a little bit of a stretch.

 

[JonJ]

Hey, everyone likes to brag. See my sig line

 

[wolf223]

 

[FalArAk]

I'm sure the guy was just exaggerating a bit..ok a lot,to make a point that he can shoot good,really good.Also that a properly tuned rifle can do great things.

My buddy said to me that my rifle in the proper hands can shoot the eyelash off a tick at 500 yards..I didn't take him literally,but I knew what he meant. I would never start a thread saying as much ,because I know it's impossible because ticks don't have eyelashes.

Besides,like others have said,you can't see a quarter at 1000 yds.

 

[ztargetshooter]

I'm sure the guy was just exaggerating a bit..ok a lot,to make a point that he can shoot good,really good. Also that a properly tuned rifle can do great things.

+1

Now burn for another few pages for believing it and posting!

OP thanks for nothing you bum.

I thought the original post was a good read.

 

[PatMcD]

Just to illustrate what we are talking about:
Here is a photo I took at Camp Perry from the 600yd line over on Viale. It might be hard to make out but the tiny black dot on those targets are 36" diameter black bullseyes. Add another 400yds to that (in sum, over 1/2 mile!) and you can see that a $.25 piece (at just under 1" in diameter) is not going to be visible.

You Marine buddy didn't lie to you. He was responding to a novice who obviously showed interest in precision shooting. A slight exaggeration was his way of encouraging you to pursue it further.

P.S. the more you hang around current and former marines/soldiers/sailors, the more you get used to tall tales. There aint one of them that isn't full of shit to some degree (I'll say that to any of them {and have} with a smile on my face and they will smile back and agree with me). The same is true of the general population.
Nobody here is questioning his honor or integrity. It's just we've all heard it before.

 

[type911]

Alright guy, you're a f-ing retard. I dont care much for story tellers or people who who no idea what their talking about yet do it anyways. You apparently have no experience shooting distance or people. A mansize target is 40x20in, not 1 inch. Well within the capabilities of the gun. Arguing a quarter at 1000m is diffrent, I know youve never looked through a rifle scope at that distance, let alone at a target or person, but at 600m you wouldnt be able to clearly see a quarter. Add 400m to that and you lose allot of detail. I am no longer in the military today, I am in Iraq working for another agency and I am here for my reputation and expertise. I know what Im f-ing talking about. Having been there done this job in combat, being a professional at this and having taught sniper skills and tactics to a wide range of people I tend to know my shit. Or the fact Ive played a part in developing the next generation of sniper tactics. For those who know me on this message board when I speak it is of fact and first hand experience, unlike some people who pretend to know, that have never done it but speak of combat training when they have never been in the situation( you know who you are). The Army claims the M24's max effective is at 800m, the USMC is 1000m, most belive the Army is closer but as everything it is shooter dependent. This is on a man size target, 40inx 20in. Not a quarter, as I said before that that is not nearly within the capabilities of the .308 but also of military .50 systems that the USMC and regular Army employ as they are 2-3moa guns. Back to my original point your making yourself out to be an a**h*** defending grandiose scientifically impossible statements with the equipment in question. Hand built competition shit with great glass, yeah maybe M118lr and a M40 sorry isnt gonna happen. But hey what do I know? Just let it rest, dont post this bullshit again; everyone is laughing at you.

Too bad you never learned tact or humility. They are great traits and are what separate great people from great a**h***s. Sure the op may be out of touch. To try and humiliate someone on a public community forum is lame. I am sure you could have gotten your point across with a little more professionalism and a little less attitude. It would probably have been more effective in regards of telling the OP he is off base. Either way... Those that boast about their accomplishments are often just ignored by the very people they are trying to instruct. At any rate thank you for your service. I will be heading over their for a tour myself. Well off the coast anyways. Hopefully my Cutter will pull in and I will get to meet some really great people.

 

[2/1Marine]

A quarter come on, everyone knows a Marine can hit the side of a dime from 5,000 meters with iron sights....we are Marines after all !

 

[Martlet]

A quarter come on, everyone knows a Marine can hit the side of a dime from 5,000 meters with iron sights....we are Marines after all !

I used to shoot dimes, but it got boring. I've been just hanging the paper "edge out" lately.

 

[Chrisg67]

the quarter thing wasnt the point of the thread, why cant some people let things go

 

[MRJ]

Type911 are you kidding me? Tact and humility are traits that separate great people from great a**h***s? P2A's first response to this guy was both tactful and humble in the face of a preposterous claim....


I have been a sniper for a number of years, Ive got the BS flag up high on this one. Capabilities, of the gun and ammo cannot be compensated by the shooter. M118LR is capable of a 1moa x 1.4moa spread. The M24 and M40 are 1moa guns +/- shooter dependent. Now going by USMC standards the M40 is capable of achieving hits out to 1000m on a man size target. But achieving .1moa is not achievable with issue ammo/ weapons inless a freak accident. So I guess your buddy has the touch of god by being able to produce acts of god on a regular basis while destroying US currency. Someone who makes such absurd claims isnt a person who Id want to be giving my money to work on a weapon when they apparently cant measure the spread of rounds on a target. Or who make such grandiose claims.

The guys who posted this tall tale continues to defend it post after post....

My friend is a true professional, with years of experience. A quarter is what - 3/4 of an inch? Doesn't seem nuts to me that he could hit it. I would certainly agree that nobody is going to hit a quarter at 1,000 yards with every shot - but it doesn't seem at all crazy to me that he would practice at hitting one, and likely hit one reasonably often.

At which point he gets taken to the mat, and deservedly so.

So you take this as an opportunity to teach a lesson on tact and humility - by using none of either, and calling P2A an a**h***. But you did it with some cowardly indirect language.

Followed up with a claim of his boasting about his accomplishments which is also bullshit - he had been trying to make a point about shooting distance - first, tactfully and finally in the post you disliked so much. Point is, this is a post about sniper skills - his skill and training is completely relevant.

The best part is after your speech in which you allude to him as an unprofessional a**h*** you thank him for his service.

Anyway, I think in your attempt to separate great people from great a**h***s you became one. Thanks for your service.

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