A problem with my Smith and Wesson 1911.

[jkelly]

I’ve been having a problem with my Smith and Wesson 1911.

The last round in the magazine feeds, fires and the case is extracted from the chamber but gets wedged, at about a 45 degree angle, between the barrel (the top of the chamber) and the magazine. This happens in all of my magazines but only about 5 to 10 % of the time. It’s always the last round, all the other rounds in all the magazines cycle fine.

This is no ordinary jam, the case mouth is crimped by the barrel and the case base is wedged into the magazine preventing the magazine from being removed. The slide must be forced forward enough to loosen the barrel’s grip on the crimped (crushed) case mouth to allow the magazine to be removed. This frees the case enough to allow it to be removed.

The history of the gun, as I remember it, is that I bought the gun new shot 5k to 7k rounds through it with out a problem. This was my most dependable and favorite gun to shoot in IDPA, Pin and Plate matches. I set the gun down for about two years and then this problem started when I began shooting it again. I don’t think I had the problem when I set the gun down.

I replaced the springs and followers in my six magazines (Wilson 47Ds) that didn’t help. So I bought two new Wilsons that didn’t help, I then bought two new Chip McCormicks and that didn’t help.

I’ve had a gun smith look at it and he couldn’t see anything wrong but did experience the same jams.

I sent the gun to Smith and Wesson with a letter explaining the problem and asking that it be fixed and that the gun be respringed as needed. They turned the gun around very quickly but didn’t fix the problem. I don’t know what they did to it.

As the first gun smith is having licensing problems, I took the gun to a 2nd smith with instructions to replace both the extractor and ejector (I was guessing here). The 2nd smith, after not getting the parts in for several weeks, decided to mil something on the gun (with out my permission) as “he’s seen the problem before”. The gun still has the same problem, but I would guess the warranty is now invalid.

I’m going to send the gun back to Smith and Wesson with a full explanation of what has happened with the gun much like this post and a request that they fix the gun on my dime. I don’t really care what they need to do, I’d expect the ejector, extractor, link, barrel and/or slide might need to be replaced.

If the gun comes back from Smith and Wesson a second time with the same problem, then it’s worthless to me. I’ll write it off as a good product from a good company that just went bad. It’s mechanical and these things happen.

So my questions to the Forum are:

1) Has anyone had this problem with a Smith and Wesson 1911 and what was the out come?
2) If the gun comes back from Smith and Wesson broken, I plan on destroying it (cutting it into little pieces) and move on. What would I need to do regarding taking it off what ever list the government has of it?


Respectfully,

jkelly

 

[Adam_MA]

If the gun comes back from Smith and Wesson broken, I plan on destroying it (cutting it into little pieces) and move on.

Blasphemy!

What would I need to do regarding taking it off what ever list the government has of it?

If you mean getting it removed from being registered in you name, I don't think there's any way to do that.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Any gun registered to you stays registered to you for your entire life and then some.

No matter if you sell it, sell it out of state (via FFL) or it gets destroyed, there is NO way to "unregister" it.

 

[Godrick]

1911 problem

Jkelly,
I had the same problem with mine after around 10,000 rounds. Sent it in and S&W replaced the extractor and ejector. End of problem. S&W has great customer service (for the lifetime of the original owner) in my experience. Hey, they even pay shipping both ways! Your mistake was in not sending it to them right away and then immediately returning it when the problem wasn't fixed. It's a machine - machines break. The crew at S&W repair aren't perfect, but in my experience they sincerely make every effort to fix the problem. Contact them and send it back. They'll make it right.
Good luck.

 

[Bugs100]

I would think it's a mag problem. I would try it with only 5 or 6 rounds in it. If it still happens it must be the extractor.

 

[jkelly]

S&W has great customer service (for the lifetime of the original owner) in my experience. Hey, they even pay shipping both ways! Your mistake was in not sending it to them right away and then immediately returning it when the problem wasn't fixed.---godrick

You're correct S&W has great customer service, and I should have sent it back to them when they didn't fix it the first time. I thought having a local smith replace two parts would be quicker and easier. I was wrong!

Respectfully,

jkelly

 

[Supermoto]

John,
I have had the same issue, it only happens once in a while. For me it started at 30K rounds The extractor is either worn or does not have enough tension allowing the case to slip down on ejection. It only happens on the last round because there in no round below to support the case.

Don't destroy the gun, Even if it doesn't work it still has some value, I could use it to practice gunsmithing on.

 

[jkelly]

I would think it's a mag problem. I would try it with only 5 or 6 rounds in it. If it still happens it must be the extractor.---Bugs100

I've tried it with ten different magazines from two different manfs., four that were new. I tried it with between one to eight rounds and had the same problem with all of them.

Respectfully,

jkelly

 

[jkelly]

Blasphemy!---Adam MA

I've come to believe that the only evil gun is one that won't work!

Any gun registered to you stays registered to you for your entire life and then some.---LenS

I'm surprised they don't require the serial numbers to be tattooed on our arms.


Respectfully,

jkelly

 

[jkelly]

The extractor is either worn or does not have enough tension allowing the case to slip down on ejection. It only happens on the last round because there in no round below to support the case.---supermoto

I'll look into that also, thank you.


Respectfully,

jkelly

 

[Neptune Cat]

2) If the gun comes back from Smith and Wesson broken, I plan on destroying it (cutting it into little pieces) and move on. What would I need to do regarding taking it off what ever list the government has of it?


Respectfully,

jkelly

I'll give you $200.00 for it. Before you destroy it, that is.

 

[MassMark]

I'll go $225... Seriously though jkelly, if you can, take it into Smith and Wesson personally. Remain calm and positive and explain your entire history - even the "gunsmith milling part". Explain you had this problem before, during and after trips to Smith and Wesson and your local smith. I find that if one goes into customer service with an attitude of "cutting it into little pieces", then service will generally reflect that - we are ultimately radar dishes for the energy we put out. I'd be pissed as well, but keep that in check and vent it out here....You have a great gun which needs tweaking, (I'm thinking it's a mag or mag spring issue myself). Good luck!

 

[Pilgrim]

$250 !

 

[bpm990d]

I'd ask around and find the right smith. I never send guns back to the factory (saves me from being disappointed) and really only look at them as parts for someone more knowledgeable to make the things work the way I want them to.

I'm not sure if Gregg Derr or Larry Carter works on IDPA stuff, but I'd start with them.

B

 

[adweisbe]

This is a common problem with S&W 1911s. I have seen it in two out of the four of that have passed through my hands (broken ones stay with me, I don't dump my problems on other people) and several (three off the top of my head) other individuals I shoot with have seen it. S&W has yet to fix any of the guns in my hands with this issue. They have made it better, to the point that the gun can shoot reliably as long as there is a magazine in the gun or if there is no magazine in the gun and you have a firm grip (tighten up when shooting weakhand!).

Send it back to S&W and see what they say. I have sent guns damaged by smiths to them before and they have fixed them as long the damage the smith did does not have to be corrected by them. If they won't warranty it then ask to buy a performance center slide. The extractor on that is different and might not be susceptible to to this issue because it is wider and much of the hook is situated lower in the slide. If you buy a new slide from them then they will warranty the new slide and commit to fixing it until the damn POS works. Get ready for many trips back and forth to S&W. That is what it takes to get them to fix their guns. I don't think they test before sending them back.

You also need to be paranoid about smiths. I have been around to a couple and seen some crazy stuff. People will cover up for just about anything in this community so you can't trust recommendations. All a recommendation means is that the guy has a friendly personality. I have talked to some people who got hosed and still ended up recommending the smith! You have to build up a relationship slowly with small jobs and keep a close eye on the work and make the judgment call for yourself. If my experience is any indicator then the bad ones will make it known right quick if you are looking with both eyes open.

The basic issue is that the extractor is supposed to keep the empty case up against the breechface until the empty reaches the ejector. On some S&W 1911s the extractor loses control of the case as soon as the barrel links down. If there is a magazine in the gun then the magazine keeps the case in position until it reaches the ejector. Sometimes the case is jammed up against the magazine feed lips (usually on the last round when there is no round in the mag to guide the head of the case over the feed lips) and the mouth of the case is crushed by the front of the ejection port when it is sandwiched between the feed lips and the ejection port.

S&W attempts to fix it by replacing the extractor or barrel with mediocre results. I would pay four hundred for the gun if you don't want it. It's a perfectly good frame.

 

[drgrant]

2) If the gun comes back from Smith and Wesson broken, I plan on destroying it (cutting it into little pieces) and move on. What would I need to do regarding taking it off what ever list the government has of it?

You'll never be able to get it off the MA registry- it's there under your name
for life, even if you legally transfer it to someone else.

IMO if it gets to that point instead of destroying the whole thing I would
probably at least save the frame and build another gun off of it.

-Mike

 

[vellnueve]

I'll buy it off you for $275 cash, right now, if you are intent on cutting it into little pieces.

S&W will make it right, just give them a chance. They are one of the few companies who will readily replace major parts (frames, slides) to make it right.

 

[Lugnut]

John, I love your realistic and down to earth attitude. I really do. I would give it to S&W again and see where things end up. If you lose patience (understandable to me for sure) then make a few bucks selling it for parts. I love S&W but don't expect perfection all the time. Good luck.

 

[vellnueve]

First dibs if you sell it cheap

 

[adweisbe]

Vultures!

 

[Cross-X]

Vultures!

Can all you amateurs clear out of here?

Now, JKelly, let's talk!

 

[jkelly]

Seriously though jkelly, if you can, take it into Smith and Wesson personally. Remain calm and positive and explain your entire history - even the "gunsmith milling part". Explain you had this problem before, during and after trips to Smith and Wesson and your local smith. I find that if one goes into customer service with an attitude of "cutting it into little pieces", then service will generally reflect that - we are ultimately radar dishes for the energy we put out. I'd be pissed as well, but keep that in check and vent it out here....You have a great gun which needs tweaking, (I'm thinking it's a mag or mag spring issue myself). Good luck!---massmark

I’m not angry or pissed at all, but I can see how one might think so. I really like Smith and Wesson products I have several PC guns (945, 952, 629 and a 625) as well as a dozen or so more of their revolvers.

My thought is if I can’t get this fixed then I need to remove it from general population, thats all.


Respectfully,

jkelly

 

[Major D Ret.]

1911's are picky eaters.

A change in the load changes everything.

It's a matter of geometry.

Find a load your pistol is friendly with and stick with it.

Never look back.

1911's got their well deserved reputation for reliability from
loose fitting parts and government ball ammunition. Accuracy
from arms room, rack pistols is far from spectacular, but way more than
adequate for an alley fight.

In this particular instance, I won't suggest a cure.
But, your ejector nose, extractor tension, and recoil spring
aren't cooperating with each other. Try firing some stiff
loads and see if the problem goes away.

Worst case, send the pistol back to S&W. If they say it's fixed,
it's fixed. That is to say, it works just dandy with whatever they
shot through it. Ask them what it was! Either buy that, or duplicate
it as close as you can with handloads. Bullet weight, nose form,
overall length, chamber pressure and stuff like that there. That should
fix your problem.

Been screwing with commercial 1911's for almost forty years trying
to achieve perfection. Stiil got a work in progress. Close, but no cigar.

Soon as I make one up to my standards, I'm selling my milling machine
and setting out in search of the "Holy Grail."

MAJOR D
INFANTRY, RET.

 

[jkelly]

1911's are picky eaters.

A change in the load changes everything.

It's a matter of geometry.

Find a load your pistol is friendly with and stick with it.---Major D

I don’t believe the problem is load related as the gun functioned flawlessly with everything I loaded into it, both store bought and hand loads. I never had a problem with it in the first 5k to 7k rounds. Some thing changed and it’s not the ammo or the magazines.


Respectfully,

jkelly

 

[vellnueve]

Have you considered changing the recoil spring?

 

[TY43215]

I don’t believe the problem is load related as the gun functioned flawlessly with everything I loaded into it, both store bought and hand loads. I never had a problem with it in the first 5k to 7k rounds. Some thing changed and it’s not the ammo or the magazines.


Respectfully,

jkelly

I recall Rick D from IDPA and USPSA having a similar problem with one of his Les Baer 1911s a few years back. His cure was a several step fix. New extractor, new ejector, modify the mag springs so the follower tilted up a bit more (bend last coil) and a 14# spring.

As you know, his guns run flawlessly.

 

[jkelly]

Have you considered changing the recoil spring?---vellnueve

I replaced the recoil spring with a new stock spring and that didn’t work. When I sent the gun to S&W I asked them to re-spring the gun as needed.

His cure was a several step fix. New extractor, new ejector, modify the mag springs so the follower tilted up a bit more (bend last coil) and a 14# spring.---Gary

I plan to ask S&W to replace both the ejector and extractor, like I asked the smith who did neither but decided to cut my gun instead.


Respectfully,

jkelly

 

[Bugs100]

S&W 1911'S recently changed the recoil springs from 18 pounds to 16 pounds.

 

[jkelly]

Thanks BUGs!

Respecfully,

jkelly

 

[matt]

I have the same issue with my S&W1911. It was fine when I bought it (from adweisbe , but I'm confident he did NOT expect it to happen to me) but developed after maybe another 1k+ rounds It happens primarily with my various reloads, but also happens with WWB and Fiochi. I have not seperated out the mags from the equation.

I suspect the extractor is the issue, letting go of the case before it is fully extracted, then the slide drives it back forward jamming it against the mouth of the chamber and crimping the round. I've actually been meaning to post on here about it with some pics of the jam.

I'm glad you brought it up.