9mm Carry Ammo - 1st Round Dilemma

bill o said:
That would just be trading one serious problem for another.
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I don't see how, unless you're using the inferior 1911. A lot of talk here about things causing problems but no actual experience or fact backing them up. As stated earlier I've rechambered the same round by dropping the slide lots of times with zero ill effects. If you want me to do it 500 times, take pics and shoot the round at the range I'll start tonight chambering 50 times per night over the next 10 days and post pics.

It's real tiring hearing people give warnings based on zero experience.
 
xtry51 said:
I don't see how, unless you're using the inferior 1911. A lot of talk here about things causing problems but no actual experience or fact backing them up. As stated earlier I've rechambered the same round by dropping the slide lots of times with zero ill effects. If you want me to do it 500 times, take pics and shoot the round at the range I'll start tonight chambering 50 times per night over the next 10 days and post pics.

It's real tiring hearing people give warnings based on zero experience.
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I agree that there will be very little actual experience with breaking extractor hooks from this bizarre and unnecessary feeding method.

It's not because the practice is safe for the extractor; it's because most people know better than to do it.

But by all means, go ahead with your experiment and show the internet you're on to something.
 
drgrant said:
I am 110% against "ghetto loading" semiautomatic handguns because I think it's a habit thing. I don't want to start a bad habit and end up wrecking a 1911 or some other "sensitive" handgun because of it. If people don't know you, it also sends of "newb vibes" the same way swinging a crane on a revolver does, or slamming a slide on an empty chamber. It's just stuff that makes people cringe- even if the reason they're cringing 75% of the time is stupid, it's easier to just not go down that road with no real cost. [laugh]

The only things I really "ghetto/chamber load" are shotguns and the like, and in many circumstances, rifles... but in those contexts its not nearly as frowned upon.

-Mike
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I like that description :thumbup:
 
xtry51 said:
I owned a 1911 once. A new Colt Combat Elite. Nice looking gun, probably a great safe queen if you're into that kind of thing. Never really liked shooting it. Traded it for a few cases of .223. I don't miss it one bit and I'll probably never own another one. I still don't understand the fanaticism. Just seemed like an overly complicated gun with so many safeties it's probably OSHA approved. Which is mostly why I didn't like it, along with the fact that 9 rounds is decidedly inadequate.

Also pushback was a major issue on that gun, especially if you were loading HP. Two or three chamberings from the mag and the bullet was visibly and significantly shorter.
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1911 inadequate? No more inadequate than say......denim body armor. Brownings design and 7 plus one rounds of 45 have been adequately killing people around the world for over a century.
 
rep308 said:
The study showed that the jam was caused by repeatedly loading the same round every day causing the bullet to get pushed back into the case and shortening the case OAL.

This has happened folks.
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How can "Pushback" happen?
The only thing touching is the case neck.
Nothing is "pushing" the bullet?
I have seen bullets get dislodged from the case neck (think kinetic bullet puller) poor crimp, heavy recoil on the previous round or repeated cycling etc can cause this..
If anything the COL would be longer ,possibly causing an out of battery failure.

Some in chamber pics.
deagle chamber.jpg in chamber.png
 
FSTC said:
How can "Pushback" happen?
The only thing touching is the case neck.
Nothing is "pushing" the bullet?
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It's the act of loading the gun- the bullet briefly hits the feed ramp(s) as the cartridge is pushed out of the magazine. This bumping into the ramp is what causes it... but the degree to which it happens, is very caliber and gun specific.

9mm is the least terrible, probably with .45 right after it... but .40 is "meh" and .357 Sig is what I would call "effing terrible"- although I think Federal HST in .357 Sig actually stays in one place, my guess is they either put glue on the bullet, or they have some weird crimp going on there. Most .357 Sig rounds can only take a few chamberings before the bullet starts pushing back really far, probably because the neck tension on it sucks to begin with.

-Mike
 
drgrant said:
It's the act of loading the gun- the bullet briefly hits the feed ramp(s) as the cartridge is pushed out of the magazine. This bumping into the ramp is what causes it... but the degree to which it happens, is very caliber and gun specific.

9mm is the least terrible, probably with .45 right after it... but .40 is "meh" and .357 Sig is what I would call "effing terrible"- although I think Federal HST in .357 Sig actually stays in one place, my guess is they either put glue on the bullet, or they have some weird crimp going on there. Most .357 Sig rounds can only take a few chamberings before the bullet starts pushing back really far, probably because the neck tension on it sucks to begin with.

-Mike
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Sounds like the barrel (tilted vs fixed) would have something to do with it. Also if the case head is supported at the breech.
Looking at the Ruger MK family the angle of travel from the mag to the breech looks brutal.
 
I'm going to jump on the bandwagon here and challenge the OP's original premise.

1) If you don't live in MA and don't have Children you are better off creating a great hiding place for the gun and just stowing it that way. In CT, before I had children, I had guns stashed under false air registers around my home. The registers didn't just lift out, but required a little special secret english before they could be removed. They were, fast, convenient and safe.

Remember, a burglar has 10 minutes in your house. A child has a lifetime.

2) If you have children or live in MA, get a safe or gun cabinet depending on your collection and financial ability. Nobody who has been in the job market for more than 3 months should use gun locks. They are ridiculous. They do little to enhance safety, and often don't make you legal like you think. (I can't tell you how many times I've seen a MA person put a lock on their gun for transport, thinking that made it legal)

One other thing. By trying to be responsible, you are actually increasing the chance of having a negligent discharge. Loading and unloading a gun 3 times a day is a prescription for disaster. The proper way to remove a gun from your body is to remove the entire holster with the gun still inside of it. Then you aren't handling the gun. Then you put the entire holster and gun into your hiding place or safe. Done. No gun handling and the gun is safe.

Don

p.s. Again, if you are in MA, put your gun in a safe. Hiding a gun is more effective than a cheap safe or a poorly hidden locked gun, but it doesn't cover your a55 in MA. Get creative. I know a person who has a dummy safe set up as a honeypot. The assumption is that the burglar will spend his time on the safe, when 5 ft away is what appears to be a hot water heater completely plumbed into his home. There are $60K worth of guns inside the hot water heater with a hidden door. Sure a burglar who is a HVAC guy would know that his wall hanging gas boiler has a built in instant hot water heater, but for anyone else, these guns are 100% secure. They can't steal what they can't find.

Re non-theft losses, remember that most homeowners insurance policies limit you to something like $2000 for firearms for THEFT ONLY. If you look closely at your policy, other losses fall under the general limits of the entire policy. Most policies have far more contents coverage than you actually could use, so in most cases, your guns are fully insured against fire, flood, etc, based on the contents limits of the policy.
 
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msdamato said:
Wondering where the OP is living? If MA, leaving it loaded is illegal. Right?

And as for, "what if you need it in a hurry", It wouldn't be in a locked box if you needed quick access I would think.
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The easy answer is to just keep the damn thing on you.

Leaving it unlocked, loaded and unattended is illegal. My carry gun comes off with the holster and goes into the safe at bedtime. I've made other arrangements for faster access if I need it.

The other thing is that my dog and my alarm buy me time. I don't have an entry delay, so the second someone comes in, I've got an alarm. Even if they ran straight to my bedroom, it would take them 20 seconds. The first firearm out of storage goes to the wife, who gets the kids. . . . you know the drill.

Now that I have children, I don't consider locked storage to be a legal requirement. Its an ethical requirement. Children can find anything that you can hide. Period. Even if its only by seeing you take something out of hiding at one point. If you have young children you have only 2 choices for gun storage. Its either on your person or its locked up.

One time I took my kids toy away from her because she had been bad. I came down one morning and found that she had stacked an ottoman onto a chair and had put pillows on that in an attempt to reach the top shelf of a closet. Her ingenuity was impressive. I had to pretend to be angry. It reminded me of how determined and creative even a 4 year old could be. I'd never bet my kids life that she couldn't do something like that to find a hidden gun.

So they're either on me or in the safe.
 
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dcmdon said:
Children can find anything that you can hide. Period. Even if its only by seeing you take something out of hiding at one point. If you have young children you have only 2 choices for gun storage. Its either on your person or its locked up.
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I'll just leave this here...

Kathy Jackson said:
As active as childish curiosity is, my husband and I believed the boys would look for and find any weapons we hid from them. My siblings and I always found birthday and Christmas presents my parents thought they had hidden well, and I had no reason to believe that my own kids would be any less nosy than I had been. And a toddler sitting atop my refrigerator one afternoon convinced me that to put any dangerous object on a high shelf “where the kids can’t get it,” is to engage in a fantasy.
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The first time I ever fired a gun was when I was 9 years old. My dad kept a Ruger revolver in his sock drawer. I knew it was there because one of my chores was helping my mom put away laundry. One day I decided to try it. I packed it in my backpack wrapped in a clean towel, got on my dirt bike and , rode out into the woods to fire it.

I was astonished at how loud it was. I quickly unloaded it and and brought it home.

I had helped my father clean it, so I knew how it worked but it was a single action revolver, so it would have been easy to miss a round in the cylinder. I look back at that and cringe.

Ironically, a few months later my father took me shooting for the first time with that same single six and within a couple of years we were shooting regularly together. He did everything right except for not properly securing it.
 
I'd say he just should have taught you how to use it sooner. My personally philosophy is to treat firearms like steak knives. Kids know where they are and how to use them. They are tools.
 
dcmdon said:
A child has a lifetime.

2) If you have children or live in MA, get a safe or gun cabinet depending on your collection and financial ability.
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And even kids can get into a safe. My parents had a safe in their bedroom closet that I was opening without their knowledge when I was about 10-11 years old. I had found the combination (this was around 1979-80, so the combo was written down on paper) and tried it a dew different times, then bingo...I was in. My dad didn't keep a gun in the safe at the time, but I used to like to check out the gold coins...mostly Kruggerands he had in there.
 
I'd like to agree with you. But when you have more than one kid that's difficult. My 5 year old is incredibly mature. I'd probably trust her alone with a loaded gun within the next couple of years.

My 4 year old is another story. It will be many years before she is as thoughtful as the 5 year old.

- - - Updated - - -

ProGun said:
And even kids can get into a safe. My parents had a safe in their bedroom closet that I was opening without their knowledge when I was about 10-11 years old. I had found the combination (this was around 1979-80, so the combo was written down on paper) and tried it a dew different times, then bingo...I was in. My dad didn't keep a gun in the safe at the time, but I used to like to check out the gold coins...mostly Kruggerands he had in there.
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Interesting. Thanks for reminding me that no system is infallible .
 
The age to start definitely depends on the child. As a parent you have a very good idea what their temperament is from the time they are born, assuming you actually are paying attention.
 
Thank you all for the responses and advice.

Although my initial assessment of my firearms storage I thought was best - I realized that everyone who said "Keep it loaded and get a safe" was more in the right.

I took your advice, pulled my head out of my a$$, and got two safes - Sentry for the Glock, which I securely mounted in a hidden location, for quick access (if not by my bed some nights), and a small Stack-On rifle cabinet for the long guns and ammo, which is also secured in an inconspicuous loc.... my wallet is a little lighter than I would like, but its a much better peace of mind all around.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
 
To think modern firearm manufacturer's don't design in the "manual" load ability is silly at best.

When a manufacturer describes capacity as 10+1 for a firearm, the +1 part is a manual load of a round in most cases.

Sorry, the manufacturers are a little smarter than most here...
 
Eddie said:
To think modern firearm manufacturer's don't design in the "manual" load ability is silly at best.

When a manufacturer describes capacity as 10+1 for a firearm, the +1 part is a manual load of a round in most cases.

Sorry, the manufacturers are a little smarter than most here...
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Ummm what? Insert magazine, close slide or cycle action, remove magazine, top off and reinsert.
 

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