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.380 was made great again (.380 Intercepter Taofledermaus)
- Thread starter Agnotology
- Start date
Agnotology
NES Member
Explain this to me. .380 and 9mm use the same diameter bullet. 380 is lower grain but usually has comparable speeds to a 9mm out of equal length barrel. So their cross section is about the same, their speed is about the same, but added weight makes it the only difference equating to whatever difference in penetration that is present. Even then, we need to make sure we are comparing comparable rounds out of comparable barrels. I need to go re-watch the 9mm intercepter video to see how deep it went in that video.
FBI says you want 12-18” of penetration in calibrated ballistics gel. Not the clear gel. That stuff is decent, but generally leads to a little more penetration than you’d get in the yellow organic gel.
Though, more recent research indicates you should lean much more towards 18” than 12, and even a little past 18” can be good.
Here are some data:
Handgun Self-Defense Ammunition - Ballistic Testing Data
Lucky Gunner tests more than 110 different 9mm, 45 ACP, 40 S&W and 380 ACP handgun self-defense ammunition loads in ballistic gel with analysis and video.
www.luckygunner.com
Ya, but I aim for the throat.
A throat shot will stop an aggressor quicker than a vital organ shot.
Agnotology
NES Member
I'm aware of that, but people are talking about the step from .380 to 9mm being some big leap in terminal ballistics, but the testing doesn't show that.FBI says you want 12-18” of penetration in calibrated ballistics gel. Not the clear gel. That generally leads to a little more penetration than you’d get in the yellow organic gel.
Though, more recent research indicates you should lean much more towards 18” than 12, and even a little past 18” can be good.
Here are some data:
Handgun Self-Defense Ammunition - Ballistic Testing Data
Lucky Gunner tests more than 110 different 9mm, 45 ACP, 40 S&W and 380 ACP handgun self-defense ammunition loads in ballistic gel with analysis and video.www.luckygunner.com
none of them are going to be a perfect analog for flesh, but you can extrapolate enough from penetration tests on 2 blocks made the same way, even if it isn't the FBI stuff.
The penetration on that .380 Interceptor is just about the same as the 9mm Interceptor, which means that extra weight isn't helping it penetrate, in that use-case with that round. Would FMJ perform the same? HP's? Obviously the same type of bullet from the same manufacturer. Cheap Blazer, Cheap PMC HP, .380 vs 9mm. Even some Federal LE Hydrashok in the two calibers from similar barrel length guns.
Weight is 1/5th of the equation, speed is 4/5th when it comes to energy, and they are being dumped in the same distance.
The data show that you have to be much more selective with 380 ammo and you’ll still be getting less expansion. Adequate penetration is more important than expansion diameter, but expansion diameter still helps when you get to the vitals.
Kind of. Sometimes expanding or fragmenting bullets behave slightly differently in the different mediums, regardless of overall penetration. But disregarding that, you’d still need to adjust your expectations. So perhaps instead of 12-18”, you should want 15-21”
I wouldn’t use interceptor as any sort of benchmark. It could easily be that their 9mm version just expands more, which creates a larger surface, which is more surface area that slows the bullet down more, offsetting the heavier mass/momentum.
9mm FMJ will almost certainly penetrate much more than 380 FMJ. If you notice in the link I sent, the 380 bullets that penetrated adequately barely had any expansion. They were effectively FMJ with a very slightly larger meplat. They stopped much shorter than what a 9mm FMJ would. As for HPs, it all depends on that expansion.
It’s not just about energy. There’s also momentum, sectional density, and more.
Agnotology
NES Member
I repeat the second half to people when they say their .45 ACP has "so much more power" than 9mm.
Very little can "get the job done" if put in the right place.
June4th
NES Member
Not another caliber war again. The Archduke and his wife were killed by .32ACP but the .38 and 9mm didn’t do enough at the Miami shootout. Bella Twin killed a record-sized grizzly with .22 but I don’t see anyone claiming .22 being a bear caliber.
Agnotology
NES Member
Expansion mitigates over-penetration. Any bullet that doesn't exit delivered 100% of it's energy on target. Adequate penetration is what, exactly? I know what the FBI said was adequate in their calibrated ballistics gelatin, but even that leaves too many variables. What if you catch a rib first? The sternum? Why 12-18"? They couldn't use a cadaver for "science"? Plenty of corpse donations to science. What's the equivalence? Is 1" of flesh equal to 2" of gel? More? Less? Assuming you don't hit a bone, where's the bullet stop in an average torso? Do lung impacts, which are mostly hollow membranes, mean higher likelihood of passthrough? And should we take the FBI seriously? These are the same tests that led them to conclude .40 was the future at one point. The FBI gel tests are the absolute epitome of "trust me bro".
The Interceptor is a GREAT benchmark, both in terms of performance and testing. You have similar speeds, similar projectiles, with just a 15 grain weight difference. TFM tested the 9mm with 5" and a 3.1" barrel, and the .380 with just a 3.1" barrel. All 3 tests had 8 to 8.5" of penetration with full expansion. That means the Ballistic Machinist did his due diligence for load development to ensure a projectile that works as intended from a variety of barrels within the specified caliber.
Lucky gunner is good for tests within caliber - but because their .380 was tested with a glock 27 with a 3.25" barrel, and the 9mm with tested with a M&Pc with a 4" barrel, you can't compare them together. How much does that affect initial FPS, and additionally, the initial force that creates expansion once it hits the gel? And how is the metallurgy of the projectile made to work in FPS brackets? Some of those projectiles on LG have only 1 of 5 fully expanded with 0 expansion on the other 4. Is that because the rounds are too slow, or because the metallurgy wasn't tested at slower speeds?
Agnotology
NES Member
It's not a caliber war... just more along the lines of being both critical and careful about gel testing, and what it is you take from it.
Agnotology
NES Member
I'll do it. it's .22 LR. Just make sure you hit the plate. Probably get more cut up from the lead splatter.
Remember this? Cleveland Elementary School shooting (San Diego) - Wikipedia
I do…I was in the navy in San Diego at the time and one of my coworkers daughters was in that schoolyard when this went down. Little Miss “I Don’t Like Mondays” used a .22 LR from across the street. She wreaked havoc with that little round from that distance. My coworker’s daughter made it out ok but others weren’t so lucky. I shake my head every time I hear someone say that a .22 bullet isn’t a lethal round.
I do…I was in the navy in San Diego at the time and one of my coworkers daughters was in that schoolyard when this went down. Little Miss “I Don’t Like Mondays” used a .22 LR from across the street. She wreaked havoc with that little round from that distance. My coworker’s daughter made it out ok but others weren’t so lucky. I shake my head every time I hear someone say that a .22 bullet isn’t a lethal round.
Cadavers don’t provide a repeatable test. And people looking at cadavers is the very reason I have said newer research shows you should lean towards the high end or even more penetration than the FBI says.
As for expansion mitigating over-penetration, yes. But for pistol rounds it is for safety reasons, not for dumping 100% of energy into the threat. All that energy transfer you see in gel from pistols is just absorbed by the body. Outside of the actual crush path of the bullet, none of that tearing you see in gel from a pistol will actually tear most tissue. We’re too elastic.
I’m saying it’s a terrible benchmark because it has absolutely abysmal and inadequate penetration.
Eh, 380 is usually shot from shorter barrels. But the muzzle velocity change for 9mm would likely be less than 50fps to drop it to 3.25” from 4”. It’s really in the noise with specific barrels themselves. So much variability between barrels of the same caliber. But, if you’re using a micro compact 9, it’s definitely worth looking at which loads perform better at slower speeds. You’ll still be able to find one that expands somewhat nicely and penetrates deeply.
380acp though, you’re relegated to FMJ, barely-expanding JHP, or fluted solids. They’ll still get the job done, but they absolutely are not equivalent in capability or selection to 9mm.
Could be they had a poor design, or it could be they were designed for slightly faster velocities.
.25's are even smaller, but is weaker than .22 LR. I think if they could have gotten the size smaller for pocket .380's they would have done it, but then they'd be unshootable. Even if they could fit a .380 into a .25 sized pistol, I wouldn't want one and at that extreme small size I'd rather have a revolver anyway. Maybe not an NAA, but something about the size of the H&R Young America.
.380 has always been a hard caliber for me to be interested in as the pistols chambered for it come in two sizes: pocket and mid frame. At the mid frame size (Beretta 84, Bersa Thunder Plus) the pistols are not that much smaller than a polymer 9mm, yet get stuck with the shitty blowback felt recoil amplifying action. Then at the pocket size the recoil is tamed some by locked breech, but the pistols so light and thin they're not enjoyable to shoot or accurate past 15 yards and the short barrels cause hollow point issues either for shallow penetration or no expansion.
There is some specialty ammo that uses fluted bullets and you'll get penetration, but what effect and damage they do is going to be unknown for a long time until real world instances provide data.
I'd rather have a lower recoiling .32 that's more accurate in a pocket pistol than a .380 of already questionable effectiveness. I figure if I'm going into any pistol knowing I'm carrying non-expanding ammo, be it FMJ or some Lehigh Defense solid copper Xtreme whatever, I don't see what an extra .043" in diameter and 25gr of Lead is giving me that makes a difference at the sacrifice of recoil and accuracy.
And yeah, I know, these are all belly guns so shooting past 3 yards is so rare it may as well be a myth unless you're in a mall in Indiana or a bystander outside Uvalde elementary or across the street from a church in Sutherland Springs, TX, or a Colorado movie theater or... you get the point.
There is some specialty ammo that uses fluted bullets and you'll get penetration, but what effect and damage they do is going to be unknown for a long time until real world instances provide data.
I'd rather have a lower recoiling .32 that's more accurate in a pocket pistol than a .380 of already questionable effectiveness. I figure if I'm going into any pistol knowing I'm carrying non-expanding ammo, be it FMJ or some Lehigh Defense solid copper Xtreme whatever, I don't see what an extra .043" in diameter and 25gr of Lead is giving me that makes a difference at the sacrifice of recoil and accuracy.
And yeah, I know, these are all belly guns so shooting past 3 yards is so rare it may as well be a myth unless you're in a mall in Indiana or a bystander outside Uvalde elementary or across the street from a church in Sutherland Springs, TX, or a Colorado movie theater or... you get the point.
Dennis in MA
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Hey, when you have waves of Moro insurgents bearing down on your line, you’re going to want that extra stopping power!
View attachment 877620
I knew a guy that was former CG Reserve and felt he was .mil. This was 30 years ago. He said the US Military invented the 45 Assippee to stop hopped up Viet Cong when they'd attack in the jungles of Vietnam.
I just nodded. It wasn't worth the argument. LOL. What 1911 meant never crossed his mind. LOL
Same guy refused to do armed guard duty of vessels. LOL. At times, the CG needed to have armed guards for something. I forget what. "I'm not carrying a gun. Period!" But he was ex-military. LOL. As long as it suited him, he was one or the other.
inerlogic
NES Member
because the glock 42 is frickin ADORABLE.... it's like a little tiny baby glock
Lokdog
NES Member
I pocket carry my Kahr CM9 every day. The difference in size to any of the .380's to me is negligible. But again this topic is subjective because of the variables involved, i.e., how big you are, how you dress and how big of pockets you have, etc.
I’m sure for most self defense shootings with a full front shot at close distance that interceptor bullet would perform perfectly fine. But add in oblique shots with assorted clothing, and the odds of it penetrating deep enough drop considerably.
As for data, it’s in assorted places. But a start is the International Wound Ballistics Association publications.
Edit: making it clear I’m talking about the interceptor, huge expansion, bullet. Not 380 overall.
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Mesatchornug
NES Member
Pistolay
NES Member
I carry the PPK in my avatar AIWB with Hornady American Gunner XTP. It will go 15" in FBI-spec 10% organic gel with the denim, and 11" in bare gel, due to greater expansion. I don't expect to be shooting many naked guys, so I'll take it. If you don't own a PPK (or PPK/S), you may not get it.
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