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17-year-old arrested in killing of 2 people in Kenosha

mikem317 said:
I'm always left pondering: How do these two, seemingly totally different views on the realities of this incident, or quite frankly anything for that matter, are reconciled?
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There will be a point, who knows how far off, where both sides have seen too much blood. I do not think we have even begun to see the real violence yet. So it is probably a ways off before there is any sort of detente.
 
I wanted to believe in the "Molotov Cocktail" theory of the attack on Kyle, but presented with evidence to the contrary, I admitted it was wrong. That's the difference with the people who want to lynch Kyle -- they are so invested in their first impression that they will never accept any contrary evidence.
 
Waher said:
They never watched the full context of the videos of the incident if they even saw any of them at all. They are clucking whatever tune NPR/broadcast/cable/newspapers tells them to without any initiative to look at first hand information. They think they are educated and informed compared to everyone else, when they are deep inside a bubble repeating what their peers are repeating.

These are the people that have no idea what the joke the Mueller investigation was and that the FBI is corrupt top to bottom, or that Joey is at a pants shitting and drooling level of dementia, or that for 90 days actual loud and proud Klanitfa communists have been rioting non-stop burning down minority owned businesses. They have no idea WTF is going on because they are lied to all day and believe every word of it.
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I've repeatedly been in conversations with people where it comes down to watching video of a situation or reading actual text of legislation, court transcripts, etc. and at that point they just refuse to view the evidence and then just double down on they know they are right and any other view is just right wing Christian white male bs that's been manufactured to fit a narrative all the while claiming a superiority of education and understanding. Absolutely baffling.
 
amm5061 said:
Yeah, the left is pushing that he's a mass shooter who went out to viciously murder peaceful protesters that night.

It's f***ing bazaar. I don't know how you can watch the videos, especially the second and third shootings, and think this kid wasn't acting in self defense. The first video of the guy who got his head canoe'd is questionable, so I get it a little bit, but as it came out that he was fired on from behind and lead dome chased him into a corner and tried to take his rifle then how can you not be convinced?
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It's too many people repeating incorrect information, or opinions as fact. For instance, the head shot was a grazing wound, and not a cause of death. Hardly "canoe'd".
 
I've read the posts saying he cleared a malfunction. I've watched all the videos and there is no good angle showing this. The one with the best angle, a man crosses in front of the camera right at the time it may have happened. However in that video and Lefty's live stream, you can hear what sounds like the charging handle being pulled and released. This happens after he shoots Skaterboi and before he shoots Lefty. A malfunction could have easily been induced by the shot that killed Skaterboi seeing as Skaterboi's left hand appears to be grabbing at or grabbed the rifle.

Watching the videos more, and at half speed, the more amazed I am. There were at least 5 OTHER people who were rushing him that backed off, one got right to him before anyone, Kyle pointed his rifle at him, and he stopped and backed off. He did not shoot. Another armed with a blunt instrument of sorts also backs off after shots are fired. That's eight attackers. He only shot at the two who physically engaged him and one who was pointing a gun at him, and only WHEN the gun was pointed at him. He hit nobody besides the attackers. He possibly corrected a malfunction in between threats 3 and 4. And he did this all while on the ground, at night. Incredible.
 
Kevin_NH said:
I wanted to believe in the "Molotov Cocktail" theory of the attack on Kyle, but presented with evidence to the contrary, I admitted it was wrong. That's the difference with the people who want to lynch Kyle -- they are so invested in their first impression that they will never accept any contrary evidence.
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Pretty much this. If a bunch of MAGA loonies started beating on some winey Antifa guys and one of the Antifa clowns shot one in self defense, it’s still self defense.

The fact that a case of self defense has become partisan is nuts. But nothing, NOTHING, is non-partisan in this country anymore.
 
slugworth said:
He Is now a “lefty“....
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drgrant said:
I just been calling him "Alpo Chunks" [rofl]
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Pqo1cRo_d.jpg


🐯
 
One problem the average person faces when interpreting videos of the use of deadly force, or even less-than-lethal force, apparently, is abject ignorance of the law and what is the norm in these situations. The first time they ever thought about whether a person would need to get shot by police in the Jacob Blake scenario is when they saw the video of Jacob Blake getting shot, and they just pull an opinion out of their ass. They can't compare and connect it to other situations where we already agree that cops have to shoot because of the danger the suspect poses to the community. They can't connect it to other cases where cops died because they didn't shoot. They watch videos of Kyle Rittenhouse, and they pull another opinion out of their asses without knowing the first thing about the law governing use of deadly force for self-defense and defense of others. They don't factor in how multiple attackers could justify a higher level of force, because they never thought about it before they were in position of starting from a conclusion that is politically amenable to them and working backwards. Social media gives them a platform to join forces with other people who also pulled their opinions out of their asses.
 
Picton said:
I disagree, though the result is exactly the same. I think they see the video, but draw a different conclusion. They are hoplophobes. They do not believe anything good can come from gun ownership. So everyone with a gun and no badge, by definition, can't possibly be doing anything right or proper.

When you're starting from that as an unshakeable belief system, the whole concept of "self-defense" changes. Self-defense, to a lot of people, means calling the police. They aren't capable of admitting that anything else is possible, because that would invalidate their entire belief system. They'll rationalize anything to resolve the cognitive dissonance that results, and that rationalization becomes even easier if, as you're saying, the media support that rationalization.

It doesn't start with a blind belief in the media. It starts with a blind disbelief in RKBA.
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I think it's something more basic than that. They don't think that these guys - who were defined by the "system" as criminals - were really criminals in the way we think about it.

They also don't have the same respect for property the way we do. You can tell this because so many of them are out there openly declaring that they're friggin communists.

Wasn't there a video a ways back in this thread - that showed some girl/woman out in the street in front of the gas station where this all went down - crying over the fact that kid diddler-head shot guy was dead? I mean I can understand this to a point - because even the most vile people in the world usually have somebody who loves them - but the fact that so many of these people just simply don't share any touchpoints of understanding about how the world works with "normal" people - really speaks to something radically different in the way they "understand" the world.

Over the last couple of decades I've come know a few people, whose worldview is just so different than mine - that it really amazes me that they're actually able to make their way thru the world and not end up dead in a ditch. The worst two of these - are women. To put it mildly: they just think that they are OWED a living by "the world". The worst of these two is pretty much as shitty a person as I've ever come across. She lies, cheats , and steals to get what she wants - and simply never fails to find a way to avoid taking any form of responsibility for anything that she does. It's a woman my wife came to know thru a couple of community organizations she was involved in - and my wife loaned her money because of one of her sob stories. Getting the money back then turned out to be multi-year affair of excuses and lies and avoidance behavior. During all of this - my wife found out this woman had engaged in this behavior with MULTIPLE people in these organizations she was involved in.

Just tracking all of the lies and scams this woman engaged in - was something worthy of a friggin John Le Carre' novel. She was even pulling this shit against her own family. If you actually got to know her - she would tell you flat out that she felt ENTITLED to screw people over - because "they had the money" (most of these people lived in places like Concord and Carlisle - and she felt they were 'rich')

If she was against guns - and I think she was - it was because that was a side effect of her social dysfunction and general tilt leftwards. Other than that - I agree with your statement " They'll rationalize anything to resolve the cognitive dissonance that results, and that rationalization becomes even easier if, as you're saying, the media support that rationalization. "

I'd be willing to bet money that if you REALLY got to know any of these people personally - you'd find that they just live in an alternate universe - one that you probably can't even comprehend unless you really get to know the intimate details of their lives - and the stupid shit that comes out of their mouths.

The way I see these people is that at some point in their lives - they came to that fork in the road that Robert Frost wrote about: and their own personal dysfunction at the time , lead then down the shit road. Once they decided to take that road - they could never get off or turn back - because their own personality flaws prevents it. So it just becomes a lifetime of bad decisions and trying to manage their way around those bad decisions - WITHOUT EVER TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR WHAT THEY DO.
 
Bonesinium said:
I've read the posts saying he cleared a malfunction. I've watched all the videos and there is no good angle showing this. The one with the best angle, a man crosses in front of the camera right at the time it may have happened. However in that video and Lefty's live stream, you can hear what sounds like the charging handle being pulled and released. This happens after he shoots Skaterboi and before he shoots Lefty. A malfunction could have easily been induced by the shot that killed Skaterboi seeing as Skaterboi's left hand appears to be grabbing at or grabbed the rifle.

Watching the videos more, and at half speed, the more amazed I am. There were at least 5 OTHER people who were rushing him that backed off, one got right to him before anyone, Kyle pointed his rifle at him, and he stopped and backed off. He did not shoot. Another armed with a blunt instrument of sorts also backs off after shots are fired. That's eight attackers. He only shot at the two who physically engaged him and one who was pointing a gun at him, and only WHEN the gun was pointed at him. He hit nobody besides the attackers. He possibly corrected a malfunction in between threats 3 and 4. And he did this all while on the ground, at night. Incredible.
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When you compare that against a typical police shooting - it's all the more exemplary.

Look at some of the police shootings that have been covered by their own NES threads here in the past. What's the round count? 75? 80? 100? And they still only hit innocent bystanders - or nothing.

I've seen a few internet assessments of this kid's shooting skill - and they were shitting all over him. But it sure seems like - once you know the facts - that the kid was damn good shooter - and really had his head on straight.

The most standout thing is that he seems to be totally cool under fire - and IN CONTROL.
 
dingbat said:
I've repeatedly been in conversations with people where it comes down to watching video of a situation or reading actual text of legislation, court transcripts, etc. and at that point they just refuse to view the evidence and then just double down on they know they are right and any other view is just right wing Christian white male bs that's been manufactured to fit a narrative all the while claiming a superiority of education and understanding. Absolutely baffling.
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This is why I keep saying: In the end the only way this all gets resolved - is with a whole bunch of people dead.

You're simply not going to argue communists out of their communism - you're going to have to shoot it out of them , or drop them out of helicopters to make it go away.

Or ..................... you're going to have to learn to live with living in a communist country.

Which one are you going to choose?
 
meh said:
One problem the average person faces when interpreting videos of the use of deadly force, or even less-than-lethal force, apparently, is abject ignorance of the law and what is the norm in these situations. The first time they ever thought about whether a person would need to get shot by police in the Jacob Blake scenario is when they saw the video of Jacob Blake getting shot, and they just pull an opinion out of their ass. They can't compare and connect it to other situations where we already agree that cops have to shoot because of the danger the suspect poses to the community. They can't connect it to other cases where cops died because they didn't shoot. They watch videos of Kyle Rittenhouse, and they pull another opinion out of their asses without knowing the first thing about the law governing use of deadly force for self-defense and defense of others. They don't factor in how multiple attackers could justify a higher level of force, because they never thought about it before they were in position of starting from a conclusion that is politically amenable to them and working backwards. Social media gives them a platform to join forces with other people who also pulled their opinions out of their asses.
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Well that is pretty much - they're just pulling an opinion out of their ass.

Even on the very FIRST night - when that Jacob Blake video first appeared on the nightly news , when my wife and I were watching it for the 1st time - they were trying to paint it as yet another "police shooting". Well my wife looked at it - thru NO prodding from me - and declared: "what are they talking about - he's walking away from the cops - and it's obvious they're telling him to stop ?".

My wife has never been arrested. Doesn't have friends who are gang bangers. Has never really been in trouble with the law besides the very occasional traffic violation. Doesn't have brothers who get in trouble with the law - etc.

But even she knows that just walking away from the cops like that isn't "normal" - and you can likely expect a response from the cops.

She made her statement - by simply watching the video that first time - ONCE. She recognized that you don't just walk away from the cops like that without repercussions.

Knowing the background only serves to reinforce the initial impression.
 
The public perception is spun as a kid walking down the street with an AR15. The reality was an in-duh-vidual who had the AR15 to guard a business against criminal attack who is old enough to enlist in the USMC who competently handled a tough situation. The trial and pre-trial publicity management by the state is going to paint him as someone "looking for trouble" eager to solve a problem with a gun.

I remember an interview with the Zimmerman jury afterwards. That case shared many of the same characteristics - issues surrounding "could the defender have avoided the need to shoot", and the jury member basically said that they wanted to convict but were duty bound to apply the law as explained by the court, and could not fit Z's actions into the framework of a crime as defined by the judge. They collectively displayed more intellectual honesty than many judges, ruling based on law rather than desired outcome.

One big mistake of his was not calling the police as soon as he got to a safe place from which to do so.
 
crazymjb said:
Pretty much this. If a bunch of MAGA loonies started beating on some winey Antifa guys and one of the Antifa clowns shot one in self defense, it’s still self defense.

The fact that a case of self defense has become partisan is nuts. But nothing, NOTHING, is non-partisan in this country anymore.
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And that’s the difference right there. If an antifa guy defended himself from MAGA loonies I’d say “well done- you had the constitutional right to do so.”

The left would NEVER do so if roles were reversed.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
The trial and pre-trial publicity management by the state is going to paint him as someone "looking for trouble" eager to solve a problem with a gun.
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Yep. But while the pre-trial publicity is infuriating, I feel pretty good about his case. Unless the world has gone a little bit more crazy since the last time I checked, they should have a hard time making that narrative work in court. They have him on tape explaining why he was there before any of it happened, and the trouble he eventually found was due actually to doing what he said he was there to do. ANTIFA/BLM sympathizers must have scoured his social media by now, and if they had found anything worth anything, we'd have heard it by now. While he was there, he rendered assistance to others and ran afoul of mob literally by putting out a dumpster fire. He seems to have meticulously avoided shooting anybody who wasn't imminently threatening him grave bodily harm. There's just nothing there. And when they draw a jury from the Kenosha area? Are they really going to get 12 jurors from Kenosha to take the side of a mob who came in from surrounding communities to burn the town? Is the DA an ANTIFA/BLM hack or just dumb as a box of rocks? Was listening to Viva Frei/Robert Barnes livestream on Sunday, and IIRC, Barnes was going with the box of rocks explanation.
 
Waher said:
They never watched the full context of the videos of the incident if they even saw any of them at all. They are clucking whatever tune NPR/broadcast/cable/newspapers tells them to without any initiative to look at first hand information. They think they are educated and informed compared to everyone else, when they are deep inside a bubble repeating what their peers are repeating.

These are the people that have no idea what the joke the Mueller investigation was and that the FBI is corrupt top to bottom, or that Joey is at a pants shitting and drooling level of dementia, or that for 90 days actual loud and proud Klanitfa communists have been rioting non-stop burning down minority owned businesses. They have no idea WTF is going on because they are lied to all day and believe every word of it.
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Even if they were shown incontrovertible evidence of (insert thing here) most of the people on the far left would deny it and fabricate a narrative out of whole cloth. They're basically similar in brand to flat earthers, etc. That's how f***ed these people are. They are so invested in their shitty worldview that they will lie to themselves to preserve it.
 
Half the country thinks its a clear cut case of self defense and half thinks he's a white supremacist shooting innocents. There is no way they get a jury of 12 to convict him IMO. They couldn't hang the Zim Zam, they aren't going to hang the Kenosha Kid.
 
Admin said:
Half the country thinks its a clear cut case of self defense and half thinks he's a white supremacist shooting innocents. There is no way they get a jury of 12 to convict him IMO. They couldn't hang the Zim Zam, they aren't going to hang the Kenosha Kid.
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They had a chance when all the kid had was a public defender. Now that he has competent legal representation there's no chance in hell.

Imo, the only thing that may throw a wrench into it is if they get a rabid MA-level moonbat judge who wants to play f*** f*** games and not allow certain evidence, etc.
 
amm5061 said:
They had a chance when all the kid had was a public defender. Now that he has competent legal representation there's no chance in hell.

Imo, the only thing that may throw a wrench into it is if they get a rabid MA-level moonbat judge who wants to play f*** f*** games and not allow certain evidence, etc.
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Hasn't happened in hundreds of years but if they convict might be a white Rodney King riot. Only not burning stores but going to certain particular places. Not threatening one, no idea if it would happen, last year I would have said not possible, now an old time jail break after a conviction sounds plausible. I think he will skate, my guess is charges are dropped once they have a new right wing Nazi monster under the spotlight.
 
WaPo being WaPO, trying to make counter-protesters with guns illegal militias.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/09/02/militants-kenosha-vigilante-second-amendment-law/

"...social media has made it easy to organize lots of people, in lots of places, very quickly and cheaply. The ease of coordination, combined with lax laws on public weaponry and Heller’s ambiguity, blurs the line between a prohibited private militia and a spontaneous gathering of individual gun owners with rights to openly carry weapons and defend themselves if attacked."
 
Admin said:
Half the country thinks its a clear cut case of self defense and half thinks he's a white supremacist shooting innocents. There is no way they get a jury of 12 to convict him IMO. They couldn't hang the Zim Zam, they aren't going to hang the Kenosha Kid.
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Just remember that "voir dire" is French for jury stacking.

The charges are serious enough that he may be blackmailed into copping a plea.
 
Admin said:
The defense gets a say in to who is on the Jury. He doesn't have a public defender.
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I really do not see 12 people hanging him out to dry based on the evidence. Reasonable doubt is definitely there and he does have some awesome legal defense.
Sure, the Kenosha kid’s life has changed, but put the one armed bandit on the witness stand and ask him what he meant by “my only regret is I did not empty the magazine in him” as he stated to a friend who then posted it.
 
usp45ct said:
I really do not see 12 people hanging him out to dry based on the evidence. Reasonable doubt is definitely there and he does have some awesome legal defense.
Sure, the Kenosha kid’s life has changed, but put the one armed bandit on the witness stand and ask him what he meant by “my only regret is I did not empty the magazine in him” as he stated to a friend who then posted it.
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Coming from the friend it’s hearsay and I suspect lefty will deny he said it.
 
This is gonna go on for years. And, frankly, that is probably a good thing.
The more time that passes until a verdict is reached, the easier said verdict will be to swallow for those who disagree.
 
Kevin_NH said:
I wanted to believe in the "Molotov Cocktail" theory of the attack on Kyle, but presented with evidence to the contrary, I admitted it was wrong. That's the difference with the people who want to lynch Kyle -- they are so invested in their first impression that they will never accept any contrary evidence.
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It was a plastic bag Pedo was carrying earlier and had something inside. He definitely thew it at KR. KR tries to evade Pedo as Pedo closes in on a retreating KR after throwing said object. Pedo reaches to disarm KR (can't see on video well but confirmed by eye witness accounts) and KR defends himself from Pedo. I don't think the whole Molotov != Plastic Bag changes much.

What is interesting with that first video is that KR tried to stay, likely wanting to apply first aid to Pedo, but retreated as the mob started to form and another bystander was already rendering aid. And the mob that formed was so focused on his superficial head wound they didn't realize he took other shots to the body and to the other side of his head.
 

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