15 round Walther P99 Magazine.

[MichaelJ]

So I go down to the mailbox the other day and there is a box in the mailbox! This always gets my heart pumping but it usually stuff for my GF so I didn't get too excited. Once I saw the return address SAW on Roosevelt Ave I knew right what it was. It was my FREE magazine and loader for a Walther P99 I just bought.

I was shocked however that upon opening the box I got my free mag loader and a 15 round magazine! Why do they ship me a hicap but when they boxed my gun up from the factory, they put in 2 10 rounders?

On another note, I would like to commend S&W on their fast handling of the promotion. I send out my paperwork and within a week I received the product. I cannot say that about any other "rebate/promotion" I have seen lately. Another thing that I liked about it was that on the return address on the package it was labeled as SAW not S&W or Smith & Wesson which I particularly enjoyed because I don't really want my neighbors knowing I have guns as most of them are shady.

So my question is...is this magazine legal for me to own in MA? I mean S&W is about 45 minutes away so I'm sure they wouldn't send me a magazine that I couldn't have or did it slip through the cracks?

 

[dreppucci007]

So my question is...is this magazine legal for me to own in MA? I mean S&W is about 45 minutes away so I'm sure they wouldn't send me a magazine that I couldn't have or did it slip through the cracks?

Unless somehow they sent you a preban magazine, it is not legal for you to have in MA. I would call them up tomorrow and tell them about what you received. Chances are it was sent in error, though I don't really know. I'm sure they'd be willing to send you at least one 10-rounder in place of the 15-rounder.

 

[FPrice]

PM sent.

 

[cdkayak]

Un fortunately it's very unlikely to be a pre-ban. Most pre-bans were 16 rounds, although there were some 15 round mags around that were supposedly from a Turkish contract but I doubt any of those would be coming through S&W.

Check it thoroughly for any date code or LEO marking, either of those would be an immediate giveaway. Definitely follow the advice of your fellow MA residents here to avoid any legal issues.

CD

Congrats on the new P99, I'm sure you'll enjoy it!

 

[MichaelJ]

so its going back.

Just got off the phone with Pat at Smith & Wesson. She tried to convince me that they would not send out a 15 round magazine to someone who lives in MA for about the first 5 minutes of our conversation and then said well just send it back. Yeah, ok, right...of course I am going to send it back I tell her but I don't want to be ripped of and not get a 10 rounder back once I send this one to them. So here I am, hoping that they will send me my 10 rounder within a reasonable time frame. Almost makes me want to just give it to one of my friends that are cops until I move out of state or become a cop in MA and can have it but I gotta do the right thing and send it back . I will keep everyone updated on this cuz I know you all care o-so-much .

 

[taz-2005]

A "Friend" who ...cough...um shall remain nameless.... had the same thing happen when he or she got his or her P99. FYI I have Pre-ban 15 rounders and they are identical to the S&W one my "friend" got.

 

[MichaelJ]

taz - is your friend in MA though? I don't need any trouble from the law when I am trying to become a cop.

 

[drgrant]

I was shocked however that upon opening the box I got my free mag loader and a 15 round magazine! Why do they ship me a hicap but when they boxed my gun up from the factory, they put in 2 10 rounders?

Probably because the people sending out the free mag loaders etc, only have
a handful of places that they -CANNOT- send the magazines. By and large
in the US, there are not many states/locales which prohibit normal
magazines. So such a mistake would be trivial for them to make, considering
that 99% of the stuff going out of that department probably
goes to "free states".

-Mike

 

[MichaelJ]

Probably because the people sending out the free mag loaders etc, only have
a handful of places that they -CANNOT- send the magazines. By and large
in the US, there are not many states/locales which prohibit normal
magazines. So such a mistake would be trivial for them to make, considering
that 99% of the stuff going out of that department probably
goes to "free states".

-Mike

I definetly agree however, a mistake like this on their part can cause me ALOT of trouble. It isn't illegal for them to have it at the shop in springfield but as soon as it leaves their gates, unless you are a LEO you best not posses it. S&W can and did try to deny that they sent it to me and that I obtained it otherwise.

 

[taz-2005]

DietCola - Yes my friend is in MA.

 

[Lugnut]

I have some MA illegal mags.... in Maine. I can't tell you how they got there.

 

[SnakeEye]

P99 mags are not serialized or date coded... so whats the problem?

 

[TY43215]

So I go down to the mailbox the other day and there is a box in the mailbox! This always gets my heart pumping but it usually stuff for my GF so I didn't get too excited. Once I saw the return address SAW on Roosevelt Ave I knew right what it was. It was my FREE magazine and loader for a Walther P99 I just bought.

I was shocked however that upon opening the box I got my free mag loader and a 15 round magazine! Why do they ship me a hicap but when they boxed my gun up from the factory, they put in 2 10 rounders?

On another note, I would like to commend S&W on their fast handling of the promotion. I send out my paperwork and within a week I received the product. I cannot say that about any other "rebate/promotion" I have seen lately. Another thing that I liked about it was that on the return address on the package it was labeled as SAW not S&W or Smith & Wesson which I particularly enjoyed because I don't really want my neighbors knowing I have guns as most of them are shady.

So my question is...is this magazine legal for me to own in MA? I mean S&W is about 45 minutes away so I'm sure they wouldn't send me a magazine that I couldn't have or did it slip through the cracks?

Now that you have posted this on a public forum, you had better get rid of it quick before the Magazine Authorities find your address in Pittsfield.

Regards,

 

[FPrice]

DietCola,

Did my PM from 7-26 help or was it a wild goose chase?

 

[MichaelJ]

P99 mags are not serialized or date coded... so whats the problem?

The P99 was not made before the ban as far as I know so therefor any magazine for it would be post-ban.

FPRICE - I couldn't find any markings on it at all.

 

[Len-2A Training]

P99 mags are not serialized or date coded... so whats the problem?

MGLs do NOT require that mags be marked in order for possession to be illegal. [That was a provision of the Fed Law, not the MA Law.]

So if some enterprising DA can convince a judge that the design of your mag was made AFTER 9/13/94, you are screwed!

If the gun wasn't made until after 9/13/94, you don't have a leg to stand on!

Each person must ask him/herself if having 2, 5, or 7 extra rounds is worth 5 or 10 years in Walpole State Prison and being a Federally Banned person for the rest of your life?

Everyone is free to make up their own minds. I just suggest that you don't share that decision with anyone if you decide to "take the risk".

 

[MichaelJ]

I agree with not having extra rounds vs prison/banned which is why Smith & Wesson get to send me my 10 rounder hopefully in a few days. I wanted no part of that magazine.

 

[MikeD]

If the gun wasn't made until after 9/13/94, you don't have a leg to stand on!

I take this to mean that preban mags can only be used in preban guns.

 

[Moderator]

I take this to mean that preban mags can only be used in preban guns.

No. But, AFAIK the P99 and SW99 magazines do not fit any other types of guns,.

 

[cdkayak]

Here is some info on the magazine design from Walther P99 FAQ

When the Walther P99 was first introduced, the magazine capacities for the respective calibers were 16 (9mm) or 12 (.40 Auto) rounds. However, starting in 2004, Carl Walther has downgraded the capacities of both calibers by one round, making them hold 15 (9mm) or 11 (.40 Auto) rounds. The new 15-round 9mm magazines are easily distinguished by having the witness holes on the back of the magazine, as opposed to on both sides of the magazine for the original 16-round and so-called Turkish 15-round ones. The new 15-round 9mm magazines also have a inward-intruding rib that runs vertical on both sides of the magazine, which serves to keep the capacity at 15 rounds. Carl Walther apparently made this magazine capacity change due to the difficulty by some users to insert a full magazine into the pistol with the slide closed.

I take this to mean that preban mags can only be used in preban guns.

No, but in this case the P99 was introduced in '94 so there were few pre-ban mags.

There are some pre-ban mags for other pistols that will fit a P99 with a modification to the mag catch hole on the mag. They don't fit perfectly flush though.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I take this to mean that preban mags can only be used in preban guns.

NO.

Crap . . . I wrote it in a way that led to mis-interpretation. Sorry, let me try again.

--------------

If a gun MODEL wasn't put into the marketplace until AFTER the Fed Ban (9/13/94), then this would normally mean that NO hi-cap mags were made prior to the ban either. Ergo, it would be prima fascia evidence that the mag would have been made during the ban (should be marked per Fed Law) or after the Fed Ban was lifted (but MA ban in effect).

Hope that is clearer.

 

[drgrant]

MGLs do NOT require that mags be marked in order for possession to be illegal. [That was a provision of the Fed Law, not the MA Law.]

So if some enterprising DA can convince a judge that the design of your mag was made AFTER 9/13/94, you are screwed!

Yeah, but there's still some sort of judicial standard, eg, beyond reasonable
doubt, etc, right? The DA still has to prove that magazine is newer
than what you assert it to be.. If the burden of proof is on the prosecution, then
they're still going to have a tough road to hoe. I'd like to see some
case law where they actually pulled this off. I haven't seen any yet.
Even some federal would be useful to see. There is probably some from
mass, but most of it is going to be a red herring, as most of it probably
pertains to individuals with large capacity mags who don't have a license
suitable to posess them. (which is a crime that is totally independent of the
age of the magazines)

Even if none exists, I'd place a fair wager that somewhere along the line,
someone is going to be a test case.... and I can agree with your
implied assertion that nobody wants to be that person!

-Mike

 

[MikeD]

NO.

Crap . . . I wrote it in a way that led to mis-interpretation. Sorry, let me try again.

--------------

If a gun MODEL wasn't put into the marketplace until AFTER the Fed Ban (9/13/94), then this would normally mean that NO hi-cap mags were made prior to the ban either. Ergo, it would be prima fascia evidence that the mag would have been made during the ban (should be marked per Fed Law) or after the Fed Ban was lifted (but MA ban in effect).

Hope that is clearer.

Len, I understand the laws regarding pre and postban mags, I just wanted to make it clear for anyone who had questions about the legalities.

On a side note...a S&W Model 410 pistol didn't start production until 1996, after the ban,but yet the factory preban 11rd mags were made before the ban and work in either pistol. I guess the question in court would be, is it the mag or the pistol that determines what's legal.

Sorry, I don't mean to add more to the already confusing gunlaws in this state.

 

[Len-2A Training]

It's the date of mfr of the Mag (NOT the pistol) that matters re hi-cap mags.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Mike,

The problem is the following:

- Before 9/13/94 most mags weren't marked with date of mfr . . . no need.

- From 9/14/94 to 9/13/04, Fed Law required markings (LE/Mil ONLY) for newly made banned hi-cap mags.

- After 9/14/04, the Fed ban went away. Mfrs were free to make new hi-caps and NOT MARK THEM with date of mfr. This creates a mess for MA inmates who try to comply with the law, AND it makes a mess for prosecutors since there is no iron-clad way to determine date of mfr status of mags any more.

- Fed Ban provided a mechanism to rebuild pre-ban mags with new components legally. MGLs don't provide a documented method to do this, but also don't say that it is prohibited . . . thus creating a gray area for prosecution . . . or not.

- Some mags have been re-engineered since 9/14/94, while others haven't.

- Some mags didn't exist (gun it was made for didn't exist) prior to 9/13/94.

Not easy to make sure you are legal. And no way to ensure that some eager-beaver Brady-type DA won't try to make an example of someone.

Best solution is deep-six that law, but don't expect it to be an easy (or quick) task to accomplish.