Wrote up NFA Trust any advice?

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DSoM11

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I sure alot of you probably don't want to stick their neck out on this because of the thought of giving inaccurate advice. And alot with swear by the attorney route. Any advice would be taken with a large grain salt.

Figured I wouldn't hurt to ask.
 
Joe Hickson runs a relatively inexpensive service for creating trusts and I highly recommend him. See the link in the mini banner bar at the right.
 
I think you should contact David Goldman. Also check out this post HERE

With the present administration and how easy it is for the BATFE to interpret or question your paperwork, I just would not want to take a chance without the consult of a law firm. (Remember, in the BATFE eyes you are guilty unless you can prove yourself innocent). Owning NFA items is a pretty big responsibility. To gun owners it may seem rather silly and over the top for Short Barreled Rifles or Silencers, but to politicians and law enforcement it is considered serious, serious business. If the BATFE prosecutes you for what may seem to be an honest paperwork violation, it can often be charged as a felony. Convicted felons don't get to own ANY guns . So it is worth every penny in my opinion.
 
Acme.Armament said:
What he said. http://hicksonlawgroup.com/ He did one for me, excellent service. This is NOT the time to play around with a free online legal service.
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+1 on this advice...

I don't fill my own cavities, perform my own surgeries or use legal advice documents found on the internet. These professional men and women get paid well to make sure it is done right.

As the old saying goes, play stupid games, win stupid prizes...
 
My two cents. VERY BAD IDEA. A trust in specific a NFA trust must be done RIGHT. One wrong word your toast. The NFA does not care if the trust is done right Ie if it looks ok then they accept it. The problem is if there is a problem and you used it then YOU will be in violation and be charged with each NFA item you bought with said trust. Meaning it woudl be like you bought them off the street illegally. This is why we pay a lawyer who knows what there doing and has a good reputation doing nfa trusts not just any lawyer good money to draw them up correctly. I would highly recommend if you want a trust to not go the cheap route get a good one. Mine was under 700 bucks and the place I got mine form has done thousands and has proven to be iron clad. I have ALLOT of NFA items not something you want to risk screwing up. Good luck.
 
Here's the contrarian view, at least in this thread: Literally thousands of people have produced valid, working NFA trusts using Quicken WillMaker. Check out any of the Class III specific boards for details. There are always tons of nay-sayers who jump up and insisting that only a lawyer versed in the NFA can possibly produce such a complicated document. Hogwash. Frequently, but not always, these nay-sayers are lawyers. NFA trusts are not new, they're just gaining popularity; they're not magic. If you get a look at the magic "NFA-specific" trust from a lawyer and the ones produced by QWM, you'll see your ~$700 isn't buying you much, if anything, from the boilerplate. After evaluating both routes, I, like thousands of others, went with QWM.

Bottom line: do some research on the Class III-specific boards, and I think you'll find your answer. Also, I wouldn't seek advice from anyone who didn't have an NFA trust anymore than I'd ask the bachelors in the office which gynecologist my wife should use.
 
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you'll see your ~$700 isn't buying you much, if anything, from the boilerplate.
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An important question is "Will you stand by me if the govt claims there is a problem with this trust, or will you quote me an hourly rate to fix any problems the govt cites with this trust?". The $700 or so is much more reasonable if you get an attorney who will back up his work at no additional charge if his/her document is the source of a problem.

Equally important is the advice you will get - stuff like "have a checking account for the trust; pay all NFA related expenses from that trust; and pay nothing else from that account". The trust should meed the duck test and be the instrument of ownership of the items, not just a one time vehicle used to get the NFA transfer approve.
 
Another issue:
IIRC there was a thread about Massachusetts not recognizing a trust for the registration of NFA items.
Did that issue ever get resolved ?
 
ScottS said:
Here's the contrarian view, at least in this thread: Literally thousands of people have produced valid, working NFA trusts using Quicken WillMaker. Check out any of the Class III specific boards for details. There are always tons of nay-sayers who jump up and insisting that only a lawyer versed in the NFA can possibly produce such a complicated document. Hogwash. Frequently, but not always, these nay-sayers are lawyers. NFA trusts are not new, they're just gaining popularity; they're not magic. If you get a look at the magic "NFA-specific" trust from a lawyer and the ones produced by QWM, you'll see your ~$700 isn't buying you much, if anything, from the boilerplate. After evaluating both routes, I, like thousands of others, went with QWM.

Bottom line: do some research on the Class III-specific boards, and I think you'll find your answer. Also, I wouldn't seek advice from anyone who didn't have an NFA trust anymore than I'd ask the bachelors in the office which gynecologist my wife should use.
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I agree 100 percent check around. But ask yourself this is that fill in form guaranteed. IF down the road the BATF says your trust is not valid for whatever reason will they stand behind you? Will they represent you as part of these guarantee? Have they done thousands of these with no problems?

It comes down to risk management. If your going to invest 100 grand or whatever in NFA toys you better be sure I's are dotted and the t's are crossed and they will be standing beside you IF there ever where a problem or perceived problem with it.

Lawyers get a bad wrap both for cost and there job in general but when it comes down to it you want the best one you can get as the good ones will stand up and more importantly stand BY it.

Basically it is insurance.

I myself prefer to err on the side of caution if it costs a few bucks more for the extra piece of mind then I dont mind paying.
 
richc said:
+1 on this advice...

I don't fill my own cavities, perform my own surgeries or use legal advice documents found on the internet.
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I'll fill my own cavities and do my own surgery. If I get it wrong, I just am in pain or die. If you get ATF-related legal stuff wrong, you'll wish all you did was mess up your own root canal.
 
travis said:
I agree 100 percent check around. But ask yourself this is that fill in form guaranteed. IF down the road the BATF says your trust is not valid for whatever reason will they stand behind you? Will they represent you as part of these guarantee? Have they done thousands of these with no problems?

It comes down to risk management. If your going to invest 100 grand or whatever in NFA toys you better be sure I's are dotted and the t's are crossed and they will be standing beside you IF there ever where a problem or perceived problem with it.

Lawyers get a bad wrap both for cost and there job in general but when it comes down to it you want the best one you can get as the good ones will stand up and more importantly stand BY it.

Basically it is insurance.

I myself prefer to err on the side of caution if it costs a few bucks more for the extra piece of mind then I dont mind paying.
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As I said before: this is not something I just dreamed up. Thousands have successfully created NFA trusts using QWM. With no problems. And, unless I miss my guess, not everyone has, or will have, "100 grand" invested in NFA.

BTW, who did your NFA trust?
 
ScottS said:
As I said before: this is not something I just dreamed up. Thousands have successfully created NFA trusts using QWM. With no problems. And, unless I miss my guess, not everyone has, or will have, "100 grand" invested in NFA.

BTW, who did your NFA trust?
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Mine was done by David M Goldman of Jacksonville Florida though my attorney.
 
I agree 100 percent check around. But ask yourself this is that fill in form guaranteed. IF down the road the BATF says your trust is not valid for whatever reason will they stand behind you? Will they represent you as part of these guarantee? Have they done thousands of these with no problems?
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Trusts are like wills - there is no way to really know they are "right" except through assurance of someone who claims to know. An accepted NFA transfer on a trust does not convey immunity from potential future claims the trust is defective - particularly if the ATF comes up with some new angle the agency feels can be applied to existing trusts.

Lawyers get the big $$ because they are trained to be able to tell you what works before you need it. The classic line of $10 to write a letter and $300 to know what to write in the letter comes to mind.

What you are buying is really service, advice, and hopefully, a willingness to stand by you and service any issues that arise from defects in the trust. Chances are you'll get that attorney's standard NFA trust - it's not likely (s)he will ask you all sorts of questions and then draft a trust custom tailored to your unique situation. The time do the initial research on NFA issues, market the trust service, and work behind the scenes to address a claim made by the state the "trust can't own guns, only people can, so all trust based NFA transfers should be declined" is recouped through the individual trust draftings.
 
ScottS said:
As I said before: this is not something I just dreamed up. Thousands have successfully created NFA trusts using QWM. With no problems. And, unless I miss my guess, not everyone has, or will have, "100 grand" invested in NFA.
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I do not disagree w/ you... people need to evaluate their options and overall expectations, I can certainly see reason some one may chose a virtually "free" software trust over a "lawyered trust" and vise versa...

Personally I would not hold my MG collection (or in my opinion any MG) in a "home made" trust...figure even a cheap $2500 M11/9 is probably worth the skilled eye of a lawyer checking out your trust (assuming they will stand by thier work)...

However, for an SBR or two, it may be worth it (to do your own)...paying $700 for a lawyer to write you a trust for a $700 AR SBR doesn't make sense in my book...if by some chance you're trust is some day found "invalid" all you need to do with the SBR is either "tack" (weld) on a proper BBl extension, or just get rid of the offending BBL all together, along with a quick letter to NFA to remove that item from the registry (SBR's, SBS's, certain DD's, & AOW's, can and often are removed from NFA registry with a simple letter, if they are permenantly configured in a manner no longer considered NFA)
 
FWIW

Bottom line is if the BATFE wants to mess with you and drag you to court, they will, whether you're paperwork is correct or not. There are plenty of cases that demonstrate this fact. [thinking]

Fill out all the paperwork you want, BATFE will even give you the stamp and the OK, then turn around and arrest you even though they approved the purchase, and did so supposedly only after actually reading all the paperwork you submitted and making sure it was correct, affirming you weren't breaking the law.

RIIIGGHHT, because a government employee would never go back on their word to screw you just because they wanted to. [rolleyes]

Cross your t's, dot your lower case i's and j's, and go the free route unless you're like the Fed, don't have a clue what the hell you're trying to do and think throwing money at the problem will somehow make it not exist.
 
securityboy said:
I do not disagree w/ you... people need to evaluate their options and overall expectations, I can certainly see reason some one may chose a virtually "free" software trust over a "lawyered trust" and vise versa...

Personally I would not hold my MG collection (or in my opinion any MG) in a "home made" trust...figure even a cheap $2500 M11/9 is probably worth the skilled eye of a lawyer checking out your trust (assuming they will stand by thier work)...

However, for an SBR or two, it may be worth it (to do your own)...paying $700 for a lawyer to write you a trust for a $700 AR SBR doesn't make sense in my book...if by some chance you're trust is some day found "invalid" all you need to do with the SBR is either "tack" (weld) on a proper BBl extension, or just get rid of the offending BBL all together, along with a quick letter to NFA to remove that item from the registry (SBR's, SBS's, certain DD's, & AOW's, can and often are removed from NFA registry with a simple letter, if they are permenantly configured in a manner no longer considered NFA)
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Agree completely. Well said.
 
The BATFE will review your trust for irregularities, but not always at the time of processing your Form 1/4/etc. If an irregularity is found, you may, should all planets align, be allowed to amend your trust and avoid a forfeiture action and federal criminal charges. In such an instance, very few people care about the NFA items, they just don't want to go to jail for a very long time. The cost for such representation is about 10x the cost of an NFA Trust, if criminal charges are not filed.
 
I must temper my prior comment. I'm not trying to scare anybody into a hard sell. The truth is, I talk about 75% of the people that call me out of NFA Trusts. They definitely aren't a one size fits all solution. Also, many people execute their own NFA Trusts without issue. The stakes are very high, so it isn't a process to take lightly. Assuming your off-the-shelf trust aligns with MA law and is executed correctly, I can guarantee that your Trustee(s) will be responsible for protecting trust property for the death-beneficiaries. A trustee normally should not be personally using trust property or devaluing it in any fashion. This is an often forgotten consideration when you and your follow trustees (if any) go to the range and beat up that new SBR the trust just purchased.
 
hicksonj said:
The BATFE will review your trust for irregularities, but not always at the time of processing your Form 1/4/etc. If an irregularity is found, you may, should all planets align, be allowed to amend your trust and avoid a forfeiture action and federal criminal charges. In such an instance, very few people care about the NFA items, they just don't want to go to jail for a very long time...
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Can you cite a single case in which a person "went to jail for a very long time" in which thier ONLY crime was some variation of improper registration of an NFA device due to a faulty trust, in which said investigation started solely because the trust was determined to be faulty by ATF, after ATF approved the NFA paperwork??? How bout even just a conviction in such a case (ignore the jail for a very long time)???

hicksonj said:
... A trustee normally should not be personally using trust property or devaluing it in any fashion. This is an often forgotten consideration when you and your follow trustees (if any) go to the range and beat up that new SBR the trust just purchased.
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So, you should probably get out there and let everyone who own there house through a realty trust that they shouldn't live there, because living there is using it and that use may devalue it...[rolleyes]

The funny thing is I am not a HUGE fan of trusts for NFA (personally I own most of my NFA as an individual). However as i mentioned in my previous post people need to evaluate there options and a trust ("lawyer'ed" or not) can have benefits in situations. I'm not saying "soft ware trusts" are right in all (or even most) situations, but I have yet to hear a legit citable "real bad things happened" story resulting from one. In my years in the NFA community all I have heard are a handfull of transfers (and form 1's)denied as a result (which I aknoweldge if its a transfer out can be a pain in the ass, but even that not the "end of the world" fear instilled by some against "software trusts")...
 
While your tone blows, you raise good questions:

securityboy said:
NFA items, they just don't want to go to jail for a very long time...
Can you cite a single case in which a person "went to jail for a very long time" in which thier ONLY crime was some variation of improper registration of an NFA device due to a faulty trust, in which said investigation started solely because the trust was determined to be faulty by ATF, after ATF approved the NFA paperwork??? How bout even just a conviction in such a case (ignore the jail for a very long time)???
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I am only aware of instances where the BATFE initiated investigation and counsel negotiated resolution by amendment. At least one investigation originated from an after-approval review of the individuals trust, with no overt reason for initiating review. The BATFE's willingness to work with individuals could cease at any point. As a strict liability federal crime, conviction would be a forgone conclusion, established simply on documentation.

securityboy said:
So, you should probably get out there and let everyone who own there house through a realty trust that they shouldn't live there, because living there is using it and that use may devalue it...[rolleyes]
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Realty Trusts come in many forms, but in many cases the grantor often retains a life estate in the subject property. Also many trusts make the grantor the lifetime beneficiary, allowing them to enjoy the trust property. Being the lifetime beneficiary of an NFA Trust doesn't solve the problem. That dichotomy is why internet trusts often don't fit the bill for NFA situations.
 
hicksonj said:
While your tone blows...
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Really???funny because I am not the one shilling my services/product through scary worst case "what ifs"...[wink]

Again don't get me wrong, I think "lawyer'd up" trusts are a good idea in many NFA situations. But reality is that to this point none of the "sky is falling" predictions regarding an invalid trusts have really occured (of course ATF could always change its mind, but that could happen with anything, go ask the Akins group...). And I am willing to wager there is not a single .GOV agent out there whose assignment it is to make sure NFA trustees are not abusing thier items held in trust[rofl]
 
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securityboy said:
Really???funny because I am not the one shilling my services/product through scary worst case "what ifs"...[wink]

Again don't get me wrong, I think "lawyer'd up" trusts are a good idea in many NFA situations. But reality is that to this point none of the "sky is falling" predictions regarding an invalid trusts have really occured (of course ATF could always change its mind, but that could happen with anything, go ask the Akins group...). And I am willing to wager there is not a single .GOV agent out there whose assignment it is to make sure NFA trustees are abusing thier items held in trust[rofl]
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As joe pointed out, the NFA is a strict liability law and so someone who is not in compliance with it is defending really unstable ground. I am sure most ATF examiners are reasonable people who seek reasonable solutions to reasonable problems. The issue arrises when you either get that one examiner who isn't reasonable or find yourself in a situation where the ATF suspects something more was going on and can't prove it (perhaps because nothing more was going on) or they don't like something that is going on but it isn't illegal. They can use the trust violations in order to punish someone for other perceived crimes and remove their firearms rights.

Don't believe this happens? Look at 131L in MA. It is a strict liability law that is commonly abused by police when they could not otherwise charge the person. I have personal experience with a few of these and one need look no further that Comm v. Lojko. He was in full compliance with the law and they still charged (and got a conviction) for the storage violation because they couldn't charge him for threatening to hurt himself. A classic example of the behavior the person engaged in was not illegal, yet was reprehensible to the governing authority that they wanted to punish him for something else and a strict liability technical violation offered up that means. A something which also would serve as a lifetime DQ. We have seen some pretty dumbass things come from the ATF and I would not be surprised if many of those things stemmed from strict liability laws being used as a means to an end.

As for a lawyer "shilling [their] services/product through scary worst case 'what ifs'...". The very nature of the legal profession is one that none of us would want to ever speak to an attorney if we were not afraid of getting screwed by someone or we wanted to screw someone else and were afraid of doing it in a way we could be liable. Your issue is with lawyers and the law, not Joe. Joe was honest about the true risks as any ethical and competent (Joe has both in spades) attorney should be.
 
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terraformer said:
...As for a lawyer "shilling [their] services/product through scary worst case 'what ifs'..."... Your issue is with lawyers and the law, not Joe. Joe was honest about the true risks as any ethical and competent (Joe has both in spades) attorney should be.
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Then you have me wrong, my issue in this case (not in general, have never met the man) is specificly with Joe (or more his "shilling") and not with lawyers or the law. When a certain lawyer is recommended in the very early posts of this thread, and that lawyer subsiquently comes along and says things like "go to jail for a long time" with regard to NFA and faulty trusts, the "uneducated public" who came to this site looking for answers, is going to put a certain validity to that statement. It isn't until later questioning about the existence of such a harsh reality, that he aknoweldges that he is not aware of any such worst case senarios and infact in the situations he is aware of BATF has worked with the invovled to reslove the situation "nicely" shall we say...So I stand by my statement that such is "shilling services/product through scary worst case "what ifs"..."

Again, I really have nothing against "Joe", and if you see my other posts in this tread am not against, "lawyered" trusts...I do however think it is in poor taste to exagerate the REAL dangers of "software trusts" when he is in the same thread recommended as a good lawyer to write you a trust...
 

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