Would this have been a justafiable situation?

[M1911]

If the man had been CCW, would the brandishing of the knife, the threat of robbery, and subsequent actions leading up the "wrestle" have been enough to justify shooting this little sh*t?

Why would you think it wouldn't be.

Was he in immediate danger of death or grave bodily injury? Absolutely.

 

[law dawg]

IF you are actually ready to use the knife, IF you know what you're doing, IF you manage to do more than cut the Hell out of me, etc. Tueller is a useful demonstration of time, but with a knife there are a ****-ton of variables that are unknowable. On the other hand, if the perp has a gun I'll give him my wallet, car keys, directions to the security system and anything else he wants. Pulling a trigger at 5 feet barely even takes will.

Of course, same goes for a gun. Just because you're shot doesn't mean that it's over and you're out of the fight. Lots of IFs in any critical incident - IF you can get to your gun, IF you hit them, IF they go down....

No one knows how they'll react to a situation until they are in it. For me I've already decided that unless I'm at a distinct tactical advantage I'll give up the wallet. It's safer for me. Once I've given the wallet and the BG starts to go away THEN I can draw my weapon and follow him as I'm dialing 911. Or, maybe I'd just be so shaken up I'd let him go and try not to pee myself. Having not been in that exact situation I don't know what I'd do.

Can't argue with that at all.

 

[Jose]

Has no one here heard of the Tueller Drill? Lots of posts about guns beat knives and "bang, bang" but I don't see anyone talking about how to go about that. Give me a knife and sufficient distance and I own 99% of gun slingers out there. I do it every month in Simunitions. A real eye opener.......

How many of the people that you "cut" just stand there and try to draw faster than you can run to them? I bet you cut 100% of those that try the Modern Technique "stand and deliver" crapola.

Those who know how to shoot on the move (really moving like what Suarez teaches, not the duck-walk or little side step bull**** that most gun schools preach) will get out of the way and scramble your attack while ventilating you. Will they always win? No. Will they win more than they lose? You bet.

 

[law dawg]

How many of the people that you "cut" just stand there and try to draw faster than you can run to them? I bet you cut 100% of those that try the Modern Technique "stand and deliver" crapola.

Those who know how to shoot on the move (really moving like what Suarez teaches, not the duck-walk or little side step bull**** that most gun schools preach) will get out of the way and scramble your attack while ventilating you. Will they always win? No. Will they win more than they lose? You bet.

Of course, where I work and train (environment) there is little movement available.

Again, my main point is that there are no guarantees. Saying things like "I'd just cap 'em" or "gun beats knife" or the like does us a disservice in the gun community by minimizing the complexities of certain situations by turning them into soundbites.

As always, the situation dictates action, you don't try to make the situation conform to your predetermined course of action.

Not picking on you, Jose, or saying "you" specifically, just in general.

 

[Bill Nance]

How many of the people that you "cut" just stand there and try to draw faster than you can run to them? I bet you cut 100% of those that try the Modern Technique "stand and deliver" crapola.

Those who know how to shoot on the move (really moving like what Suarez teaches, not the duck-walk or little side step bull**** that most gun schools preach) will get out of the way and scramble your attack while ventilating you. Will they always win? No. Will they win more than they lose? You bet.

Jose, everything I've ever read about knife fights tells me I'm extremely unlikely to be killed by a knife-wielding assailant.

I will, however, come out cut to living Hell. Something I'd rather avoid. I may or may not be able to draw and fire befire I'm seriously wounded, but for what? My credit cards that will be canceled five-minutes later and (at most) a couple hundred bucks? I'm going to risk serious injury or death for that?

Your chances of actually getting mugged by an assailant with a weapon are tiny unless you live in Watts, Compton, or some other total crapholes. Statistics don't lie, the numbers vs population are really small.

The chances of getting mugged by a weapon-wielding assailant who will then attempt to injure/kill you are smaller yet, smaller by a wide margin.

And they are even smaller if you use good judgment and show some situational awareness.

Call me a sissy but in the unlikely event I'm robbed at knifepoint, I'm giving the guy my money and waiting for a tactically advantageous moment to draw and then take whatever action is appropriate and legal. I'm not up for drawing and taking my chances. I'm not in that good a shape and I don't carry anything that's so valuable I couldn't replace it.

From the article:
A 56-year-old man who refused to give up his wallet was stabbed multiple times Monday night by a teenager during a struggle on a dark Cambridge street, Cambridge Police said.

The victim was in stable condition this afternoon. Police said the man was walking home about 11:30 p.m. in the Cambridgeport neighborhood when a teenager wielding a knife approached him at the corner of Brookline and Erie streets and demanded that he give up his wallet. The man refused and the two wrestled.

Unarmed 56-y/o man vs a 16-y/o with a knife. The kid is scum but that's a dumb**** move. If he'd been armed maybe it would have made a difference. For my money I'm betting on a badly cut-up victim and a dead perp, but would that cutting up be worth it? Not for me.

 

[Jose]

Of course, where I work and train (environment) there is little movement available.

Again, my main point is that there are no guarantees. Saying things like "I'd just cap 'em" or "gun beats knife" or the like does us a disservice in the gun community by minimizing the complexities of certain situations by turning them into soundbites.

As always, the situation dictates action, you don't try to make the situation conform to your predetermined course of action.

Not picking on you, Jose, or saying "you" specifically, just in general.

Agreed

 

[Jose]

Jose, everything I've ever read about knife fights tells me I'm extremely unlikely to be killed by a knife-wielding assailant.

I will, however, come out cut to living Hell. Something I'd rather avoid. I may or may not be able to draw and fire befire I'm seriously wounded, but for what? My credit cards that will be canceled five-minutes later and (at most) a couple hundred bucks? I'm going to risk serious injury or death for that?

Your chances of actually getting mugged by an assailant with a weapon are tiny unless you live in Watts, Compton, or some other total crapholes. Statistics don't lie, the numbers vs population are really small.

The chances of getting mugged by a weapon-wielding assailant who will then attempt to injure/kill you are smaller yet, smaller by a wide margin.

And they are even smaller if you use good judgment and show some situational awareness.

Call me a sissy but in the unlikely event I'm robbed at knifepoint, I'm giving the guy my money and waiting for a tactically advantageous moment to draw and then take whatever action is appropriate and legal. I'm not up for drawing and taking my chances. I'm not in that good a shape and I don't carry anything that's so valuable I couldn't replace it.

From the article:
A 56-year-old man who refused to give up his wallet was stabbed multiple times Monday night by a teenager during a struggle on a dark Cambridge street, Cambridge Police said.

The victim was in stable condition this afternoon. Police said the man was walking home about 11:30 p.m. in the Cambridgeport neighborhood when a teenager wielding a knife approached him at the corner of Brookline and Erie streets and demanded that he give up his wallet. The man refused and the two wrestled.

Unarmed 56-y/o man vs a 16-y/o with a knife. The kid is scum but that's a dumb**** move. If he'd been armed maybe it would have made a difference. For my money I'm betting on a badly cut-up victim and a dead perp, but would that cutting up be worth it? Not for me.

Do what you will.

I do know my capabilities with a firearm and will gladly take my chances when confronted by a knife-wielding turd.

Besides, continuting to give in to violent crime does guess what? ENCOURAGE IT.

 

[law dawg]

Do what you will.

I do know my capabilities with a firearm and will gladly take my chances when confronted by a knife-wielding turd.

Besides, continuting to give in to violent crime does guess what? ENCOURAGE IT.

I agree with the sentiment in general, but, for me specifically, I only go when I have to or when I have the tactical advantage. Just sayin.....

 

[theGringo]

So suppose I'm carrying paper, with scissors as a back up, and a guy comes at me with a rock ... should I fold up a paper airplane with my paper and fly away? Or should I fold the paper into a fan and blow the rock away?

Hmm ...

 

[Blitz1]

So suppose I'm carrying paper, with scissors as a back up, and a guy comes at me with a rock ... should I fold up a paper airplane with my paper and fly away? Or should I fold the paper into a fan and blow the rock away?

Hmm ...

Paper beats rock.

 

[theGringo]

Paper beats rock.

Oh. Yeah, that's right. Well, problem solved!

 

[kaetaur]

As my one time being a knife robbery victim...

As my one time being a knife robbery victim...

The guy grabbed me first before I realized what he was doing. I was working at a all night store so I was used to people appearing. A friend of mine was in the store with me and he was ready to fight. Since he grabbed me there was not much I could do until released. Now I watch for people with hands concealed and try to watch my ass more.

I thought I was getting killed that night, but I was lucky. If there is a next time and I am armed, with the time to draw, the BG will get a very short opportunity to stop coming at me or get pacified. If it is him or me, the choice is easy... I am getting married in a month and I am not wasting all that money getting married just so she can get out without papers and court costs.

 

[Mark L]

Let me offer a different perspective on Man vs. Knife, for what it's worth. Note that I'm really new to firearms, only a few hundred rounds down range, and just starting to integrate them into my arsenal ...

I practice self defense, and weapon scenarios have always been part of the curriculum. I train knife vs. unarmed at least monthly. Lots of interview type scenarios (like the one in my old Cambridge neighborhood we're discussing here), covert, overt attacks. We use training blades and markers, and encourage our bad guys to attack vigorously until seriously discouraged. It's interesting to note that the most challenging opponents to deal with are the ones that haven't had any training, presumably like the scumbags we're likely to deal with in an adversarial situation.

Humility aside, I've been doing this Nixon was President, and I don't suck at it. I've learned that when engaging a knife (in these training scenarios, at least), you are going to get cut. Every time, multiple times. I disarm maybe 2 in 10 before the damage is too great to continue. Of those wins, given the traces left by the trainers/markers, survival is a question mark. For me, fighting someone with a knife and bad intentions is a losing proposition over 90% of the time. A lot of that losing could easily be lethal.

I've practice Tueller, I believe it. My advice would be to run, if you can. If you think the guy just wants money, give it to him (and hope that'll be enough). If you think you're screwed no matter what you do, open the whole can ...

 

[Jose]

My state law requires that retreat from confrontation be at least attempted if it can be done safely before using deadly force is legal.

So if I am alone, that will be my default option. That does not mean that it will be an unarmed retreat though. If retreat is not possible, or if pursued, I will defend myself with as much violence as needed to end the attack.

If I am with wife and/or child, the dynamics change drastically. Neither of them can run as far or as fast as I so I will go on the offensive. The situation will dictate the exact response, but most likely the response will be extreme violence to end the attack ASAP while deflecting the attacker's attention from my loved ones.

 

[Remsport Mfg]

JAM

 

[Troy]

So if I am alone, that will be my default option. That does not mean that it will be an unarmed retreat though. If retreat is not possible, or if pursued, I will defend myself with as much violence as needed to end the attack.

If I am with wife and/or child, the dynamics change drastically. Neither of them can run as far or as fast as I so I will go on the offensive. The situation will dictate the exact response, but most likely the response will be extreme violence to end the attack ASAP while deflecting the attacker's attention from my loved ones.

I'm glad that someone involved the wife and or children into this. The second to the last thing I want to do is shoot someone. The very last thing is to let anything happen to my loved ones. If you have the "nerve" to rob me at knife point and one of my children are with me, I will defend to the up-most of my ability.

 

[ShadeWPI]

Untrained attacks are often the most dangerous because they are unpredictable. Training, while it generally makes someoone more effective, it also tends to make their reactions predictable.

If a person is closer than 10 feet and has a knife, it is unlikely you can draw and fire before they can close 10' IF they choose to come at you when you move to draw.

As pointed out, the goal is typically to wait until either:

Further delay will likely result in a serious loss of tactical advantage (Overt Threat and threat is crossing the barrier were action can be taken prior to threat closing, threat is crossing or averting some barrier, etc)

A significant tactical advantage presents itself (Threat is distracted or otherwise unprepared for a response)

I have been told by several police officers:

If you a presented with a threat which you deem justifies a deadly force response, remember 2 things:

1) It's easier to explain a corpse than a witness
2) It's easier to explain a second bullet than a competing story

 

[Mark from MA]

http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2009/09/teen_stabs_man.html

"A 56-year-old man who refused to give up his wallet was stabbed multiple times Monday night by a teenager during a struggle on a dark Cambridge street, Cambridge Police said.

The victim was in stable condition this afternoon. Police said the man was walking home about 11:30 p.m. in the Cambridgeport neighborhood when a teenager wielding a knife approached him at the corner of Brookline and Erie streets and demanded that he give up his wallet. The man refused and the two wrestled.

A 16-year-old boy was arrested at 1:44 a.m. today and charged with attempted armed robbery and assault with intent to murder."



If the man had been CCW, would the brandishing of the knife, the threat of robbery, and subsequent actions leading up the "wrestle" have been enough to justify shooting this little sh*t?






My guess is if he was CCW and pulled his gun when the little ahole brandished his knife and demanded the wallet, the pussy would have run away....and therefore no one would have gotten hurt.....in essence the exact reason to carry.

If he didn't run away, shooting him til the threat to your life was extinguished would certainly be justified. And who the hell cares about what anyone thinks at that point..... I don't care what part of the state your in and what Martha says.......nobody has a right to take you or your loved one's life.

 

[Mark from MA]

Let me offer a different perspective on Man vs. Knife, for what it's worth. Note that I'm really new to firearms, only a few hundred rounds down range, and just starting to integrate them into my arsenal ...

I practice self defense, and weapon scenarios have always been part of the curriculum. I train knife vs. unarmed at least monthly. Lots of interview type scenarios (like the one in my old Cambridge neighborhood we're discussing here), covert, overt attacks. We use training blades and markers, and encourage our bad guys to attack vigorously until seriously discouraged. It's interesting to note that the most challenging opponents to deal with are the ones that haven't had any training, presumably like the scumbags we're likely to deal with in an adversarial situation.

Humility aside, I've been doing this Nixon was President, and I don't suck at it. I've learned that when engaging a knife (in these training scenarios, at least), you are going to get cut. Every time, multiple times. I disarm maybe 2 in 10 before the damage is too great to continue. Of those wins, given the traces left by the trainers/markers, survival is a question mark. For me, fighting someone with a knife and bad intentions is a losing proposition over 90% of the time. A lot of that losing could easily be lethal.

I've practice Tueller, I believe it. My advice would be to run, if you can. If you think the guy just wants money, give it to him (and hope that'll be enough). If you think you're screwed no matter what you do, open the whole can ...

Some good advice here from someone with experience.......and just to clarify.....if unarmed and I'm facing someone with a knife.....I would give them the wallet probably. As much as I'd hate giving in to crime, I've got 2 children and a wife that rely on me to be there for them, not dead or lying in a hospital with knife wounds. Not to say that I wouldn't get stabbed anyway even if I did give them the wallet, but I'm hoping that would diffuse the situation. If it didn't....fight like hell. The reality is life is not like the movies, and just because your the "good guy" doesn't mean you won't end up dead.

If I was single...different story probably....my wife and children keep me from doing many stupid things.

If armed however, I would say I'm reaching for my wallet and pull out the pistol and shoot them if they didn't run away. And as others mentioned....if wife and children are present, it would be a different situation and response would be to maintain as much tactical advantage as possible, and be on the offensive if need be, while my loved ones retreat to safety.

 

[Remsport Mfg]

Knifes never run out of bullets and always do damage. Someone with a knife charging you from 21ft. can be on you and cutting you up before you can draw and shoot. This is a LE stat.
This would fulfill MA. Law use of deadly force - Jeopardy, Ability, Means (JAM)

 

[center442]

Let me offer a different perspective on Man vs. Knife, for what it's worth. Note that I'm really new to firearms, only a few hundred rounds down range, and just starting to integrate them into my arsenal ...

I practice self defense, and weapon scenarios have always been part of the curriculum. I train knife vs. unarmed at least monthly. Lots of interview type scenarios (like the one in my old Cambridge neighborhood we're discussing here), covert, overt attacks. We use training blades and markers, and encourage our bad guys to attack vigorously until seriously discouraged. It's interesting to note that the most challenging opponents to deal with are the ones that haven't had any training, presumably like the scumbags we're likely to deal with in an adversarial situation.

Humility aside, I've been doing this Nixon was President, and I don't suck at it. I've learned that when engaging a knife (in these training scenarios, at least), you are going to get cut. Every time, multiple times. I disarm maybe 2 in 10 before the damage is too great to continue. Of those wins, given the traces left by the trainers/markers, survival is a question mark. For me, fighting someone with a knife and bad intentions is a losing proposition over 90% of the time. A lot of that losing could easily be lethal.

I've practice Tueller, I believe it. My advice would be to run, if you can. If you think the guy just wants money, give it to him (and hope that'll be enough). If you think you're screwed no matter what you do, open the whole can ...

Thanks for this perspective. I can only add a small personal comment.

My Dad was one of the most fearless men I've ever known. Except about knives. He had told me that he'd rather be shot then stabbed. When I asked him why, he told me about a guy in his unit, a Southerner (not that it matters), in WW II. The guy was very skilled with knives. My Dad never went into great detail about how the guy displayed those skills, but it left a lasting impression on him even years later.

His comment was that if he was ever attacked by someone with a knife and he could get to his gun, the guy was getting the full cylinder or magazine. He was not a violent man at all, but he was adamant about his reaction to a knife wielding opponent. Thinking back, he would never watch a slasher type horror film. Whatever that guy in the Army could do with a knife left a very lasting impression on him.

Mark L's comments above have given me a little insight to his reaction.

 

[Polibious]

I read an article once about the psychology and physiology of self defense and ccw. The article claimed there were two kinds of criminals; what I call the communist and capitalist criminal. The communist criminal is lazy, he wouldn't work if he had a job, he steals because he thinks its easy money for no work. Psychology stops this criminal; the mear sight of a gun being drawn makes the communist run for his life or grovel for it. The capitalist criminal on the other hand works hard at being a criminal and enjoys his line of work; this guy doesn't mind getting his hands dirty. The capitalist requires physiology to stop him. This comes in the form of MANY rounds being fired directly into him. The moral of the story according to the article is that your purpose in drawing and firing your weapon isn't to kill; its to make the person STOP and stop immediately whatever they are doing. Death is the side effect of stopping.

Think about the terminology we use when talking about guns and bullet velocity...We use the term "stopping power" not killing power. We first and foremost want the criminal to stop. Just MHO for whatever its worth.