Why don't we push back?

[Alchemist17]

As a relatively new gun owner in MA, I can already see that the Mass gun laws are overly restrictive, poorly written, and overly dependent on interpretation and selective enforcement. Even more, given that NH and VT are just a short drive north, there's absolutely nothing that prevents "assault weapons", those evil "post-ban large capacity mags", non-compliant handguns, and just about anything else from coming into the commonwealth. Anyone willing to break the law anyway isn't going to be stopped by these laws, and the number of pitfalls for "lawful" owners due to ambiguity and bad law (much of which I've seen on this site) are tremendous.

So why do we put up with it? Why do we assume that the same government that made this mess is going to fix it because it's a hardship on us - the main purpose of the MA state government is to be a hardship on the citizens. So why haven't we taken things into our own hands? If dog racing and misdemeanor pot possession can make the ballot, why aren't we putting straightforward fixes for the gun laws on as well? Something as simple as a law allowing a properly licensed individual to purchase any magazine allowed by federal law would be a big step forward, and should be defensible in a campaign - If I can drive to RI or NH and buy these without a license, how can one expect this to have any impact on criminals?

A link to the initiative petition process is below. Anyone think that we might fare better going directly to the people rather than trusting the state government?

http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=cagoter...nt&f=government_petitions_2009_2010&csid=Cago

 

[drgrant]

A link to the initiative petition process is below. Anyone think that we might fare better going directly to the people rather than trusting the state government?

You forgot the part that in MA, the state government only respects an initiative question when it likes it. Compliance with the wishes of the voters is strictly optional.

So even if, by some miracle, we got an RKBA question on the ballot, and by some other miracle, it passed, Do you really think the legislators are gonna enact it?

They'll get around to doing that right after they roll back the income tax, or for that matter, respecting the wishes of the voters about not having a seat belt law....

-Mike

 

[cb1]

Every major policy decision that is made in this state is done behind closed doors and without any input whatsoever from the general public. Anyone who tells you different is either misinformed or lying.

As drgrant pointed out, the legislature TOLD US that if we voted to repeal the income tax they would ignore us. What makes you think they would act any different in regards to gun ownership? They wouldn't.

The only way things will change is if A) a gun friendly mayor gets elected in Boston and we can see what happens when the prevailing wisdom gets turned on its head or B) something terrible happens (at the correct time) that can be used to make being pro-gun the only politically advantageous position.

 

[Alchemist17]

You forgot the part that in MA, the state government only respects an initiative question when it likes it. Compliance with the wishes of the voters is strictly optional.

So even if, by some miracle, we got an RKBA question on the ballot, and by some other miracle, it passed, Do you really think the legislators are gonna enact it?

-Mike

Well, they'd actually have to pass a law to reverse it - they can't just passively invalidate it. And I have no illusion that they'd let us go the Vermont route and allow RKBA to be a "choice" that's strictly between an adult and their gun shop. But we may as well make them fight to deny us our rights and force them to confront the issue - if for no other reason than to stand up for ourselves and take our arguments to the people as well.

 

[Pilgrim]

Remember that these idiots get elected by the idiots who want them and their policies.

We are in a minority and ANY gun legislation that will make things better for us doesn't stand a chance...on a referendum or otherwise.

Guns are bad. Repeat...guns are bad. It's what the sheeple hear and what they repeat so it must be true.

 

[Admin]

Welcome to the forum Alchemist17.

 

[cb1]

Well, they'd actually have to pass a law to reverse it - they can't just passively invalidate it. And I have no illusion that they'd let us go the Vermont route and allow RKBA to be a "choice" that's strictly between an adult and their gun shop. But we may as well make them fight to deny us our rights and force them to confront the issue - if for no other reason than to stand up for ourselves and take our arguments to the people as well.

Don't forget how things work here in MA. If you went out to try and get a question put on the ballot and failed miserably, there are politicians like the AG who would seize on the opportunity to say, "see! the people of MA are FOR stricter gun control, not against it!!" and label the rest of us as crazies. You would be treated the same way as those that protested against gay marriage.

 

[M1911]

George Soros spent about $500k funding the marijuana decriminalization initiative in the last election.

How many hundreds of thousands of dollars do you have to finance the initiative process?

 

[firestorm]

Also, I could be wrong but didnt the people vote down the seat belt law, and the legislature just ignored them. Didnt make a new law to adress it, just ignored the vote?

 

[easyrhino]

Don't forget how things work here in MA. If you went out to try and get a question put on the ballot and failed miserably, there are politicians like the AG who would seize on the opportunity to say, "see! the people of MA are FOR stricter gun control, not against it!!" and label the rest of us as crazies. You would be treated the same way as those that protested against gay marriage.

+1, unfortunately. Still, all the same, why should we tolerate being relagating to whining about it on our cozy little gun forum? I can read and write just like many of the very eloquent members of this forum. Why don't we use our talents to shed some light on OUR civil rights issue? While what many of you are saying is true about our state (that the liberal sheeple are in charge), there are plenty of people in this state, specifically in Western MA, that are willing to listen to reason - believe it or not. If we only possessed the same energy that liberals use to pioneer their causes, then I think we could be successful in getting pieces of our right back. Bitching about it on a forum does nothing. Then again, I don't have all the free time that those jobless sheeple have since I'm too busy working and raising my kids and enjoying my family. What to do?

 

[doobie]

NH Constitution
Mass Constitution

Read and compare the wording. The MA Const uses the word 'subjects' quite often to describe the people who live tehre. The NH Const uses "Men" and "Persons."

My two cents. Welcome to the forum!

 

[GLOCK.Perfection]

alchemist, are you a member of goal?

 

[cb1]

+1, unfortunately. Still, all the same, why should we tolerate being relagating to whining about it on our cozy little gun forum? I can read and write just like many of the very eloquent members of this forum. Why don't we use our talents to shed some light on OUR civil rights issue? While what many of you are saying is true about our state (that the liberal sheeple are in charge), there are plenty of people in this state, specifically in Western MA, that are willing to listen to reason - believe it or not. If we only possessed the same energy that liberals use to pioneer their causes, then I think we could be successful in getting pieces of our right back. Bitching about it on a forum does nothing. Then again, I don't have all the free time that those jobless sheeple have since I'm too busy working and raising my kids and enjoying my family. What to do?

I agree. It's difficult and very time consuming, especially when you're going against the flow of the mainstream. Personally, I try to keep it simple and talk to people about it on a local, practical level. For example, I recently changed the mind of a very, very liberal (borderline socialist) individual in regards to their opinion of gun control by pointing out that it is illegal to carry spray on college campuses. I went that route knowing they went to school in Worcester and was able to build my argument from there.

If we each tried to convert just one person by the next election we would expand our gun-friendly voter base dramatically.

*Edit:

I got my LTC in December. Since then I've converted 4 other people, all of which are preparing to take their safety courses.

 

[easyrhino]

If we each tried to convert just one person by the next election we would expand our gun-friendly voter base dramatically.

*Edit:

I got my LTC in December. Since then I've converted 4 other people, all of which are preparing to take their safety courses.

Word. My wife has her LTC appointment with our Chief of Police tomorrow. And this past weekend I had discussions with two seperate sets of parents who have all called me since to thank me for all the great information and that they were all signing up to take their LTC class together at Smith and Wesson. Moral of the story - keep pluggin away.

 

[lord1234]

alchemist, are you a member of goal?

this.

 

[Alchemist17]

alchemist, are you a member of goal?

Yep. And I greatly appreciate their efforts to work within the system to improve things. But I have to say that even deep in "enemy territory" I have far more faith in our ability to convince the individuals of this state than the politicians. And unfortunately simply expanding the RKBA-respecting members of the electorate only works if enough of the state has actual choices in their elections that enable them to vote in representatives that represent an actual difference - how common is that?

At least in the case of a ballot initiative the votes of us common people matter, and we can get beyond the issue of our representatives shielding us for our own good. And sure, we may win and we may lose, but are we winning now? Are we happy with the answer to MA laws as being "Move to NH"?

It also seems to me that some of the state restrictions just don't pass the laugh test - we don't need to convince the voters that the 2nd amendment guarantees us the right to possess assault weapons with 100-round drums to make progress, merely to point out that a criminal willing to assault, rape, or kill their victim isn't likely to sweat the criminality of bringing a couple of ounces of plastic and metal for a large cap magazine across state lines.

There are good, common-sense arguments and statistics to show that the current system is unproductive, likely a net harm to individuals, and far less of an imposition on criminal elements than we'd like. As many of you have noted, when engaging people one on one it's amazing how many converts are there to be had, and how reasonable people can be when one forces them to think. It pains me that despite all of this we're so willing to surrender the public arena to the anti-gun crowd. Yes, this will be an uphill battle. So was Mount Suribachi.

 

[HTRN]

NH Constitution
Mass Constitution

Read and compare the wording. The MA Const uses the word 'subjects' quite often to describe the people who live tehre. The NH Const uses "Men" and "Persons."

My two cents. Welcome to the forum!

I wish it were as black and white as you seem to portray.

Check articles 14,15,16 etc etc etc. in the NH constitution. "No subject shall..."

 

[MasterShinken]

I still say one of the most shocking thing I've brought into an argument for a lot of people was showing (as of last budget I believe) MA has allocated only 4% to public safety. they apparently aren't too worried about you and don't plan on helping you. after all is said and done, your on your own, and the MA gov. is doing it's damnedest to make sure you are at a handicap.

 

[exo]

Join GOAL if you haven't already

Hey folks, new to the forum. I got my LTC-A this year and boy was it a pain. I've since been reading quite a lot about the MA gun laws and just how little respect they give to our civil rights.

If you want to push back, please join GOAL if you haven't already. If you know like minded individuals (or people who could be "converted") who aren't already members, please ask them to join GOAL too. They're trying to get a complete rewrite of the MA gun laws passed this year. They've gotten a number of cosponsors in the state legislature but without people like us urging our representatives and senators to support it then I fear it won't pass. You can read about it at http://www.massgunlawreform.com/.

 

[Coyote33]

You forgot the part that in MA, the state government only respects an initiative question when it likes it. Compliance with the wishes of the voters is strictly optional.

So even if, by some miracle, we got an RKBA question on the ballot, and by some other miracle, it passed, Do you really think the legislators are gonna enact it?

They'll get around to doing that right after they roll back the income tax, or for that matter, respecting the wishes of the voters about not having a seat belt law....

-Mike

How about an initiative petition that any results of initiative petitions are binding? (-;

...The only way things will change is if A) a gun friendly mayor gets elected in Boston and we can see what happens when the prevailing wisdom gets turned on its head or B) something terrible happens (at the correct time) that can be used to make being pro-gun the only politically advantageous position.

or C) GOAL "educates" the police (starting with chiefs) on MA gun laws, by putting on seminars and training (using NRA money). This will put the law enforcement on our side, which is always a toughie when it comes to pending legislation and they say law enforcement is against it.

George Soros spent about $500k funding the marijuana decriminalization initiative in the last election.

How many hundreds of thousands of dollars do you have to finance the initiative process?

I want to know why "the good side" hasn't found or converted any "Sugar Daddies" yet.

 

[Lucas McCain]

The problem here is that you are applying logic to MA politics. As stated above, the legislators of this state dont give a damn about the average Joe's civil rights. The reason being that if you are too poor to buy a legal gun because of your crack habbit, then the state should protect you from all those big bad working folks who can afford one legally. They must level the playing field and law abiding citizens civil rights be damned. In MA, its about the lowest common denominator.

 

[Alchemist17]

The problem here is that you are applying logic to MA politics. As stated above, the legislators of this state dont give a damn about the average Joe's civil rights. The reason being that if you are too poor to buy a legal gun because of your crack habbit, then the state should protect you from all those big bad working folks who can afford one legally. They must level the playing field and law abiding citizens civil rights be damned. In MA, its about the lowest common denominator.

That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.​

We have been here before. Government will try to assume power wherever it can these days - whether through "fairness" or to protect "the children", or simply because they feel they know better than you. I fully understand that government in this sense is neither benign nor rational - but for good or ill it IS the government we have. When these efforts were made on the national scale the response from the nation made it clear that these policies came with a heavy political cost - I would hope that we could achieve at least some of that here. Even if we can't throw all of the bums out, we could at least provide enough of a thorn in their side to encourage them to turn their efforts somewhere else.

 

[graftyman]

The point being the legislative route is a Dead End. The Mass legislature has proven time and time again to not follow the wishes of the citizens. The Attorney General makes their own laws and calls them "Consumer Protection".

The only real way to fight the laws here would be in court. Being our judges are buddies with the legislature and AG, the idea of fighting it through the court system is a daunting task. I don't know about you, but I am not willing to walk up to a police officer with an illegal hi cap mag made after 94 and have them arrest me so I could fight it. With the punishment that you could face along with a felony conviction makes this an improbable scenario for someone that is not crazy.

What I feel the community must do is wait for the case that has merit and everyone get behind that person who got pinched with our dollars and hire a "Dream Team" legal defense that will push the issue on the AG regs, the hi cap laws as far as it must go, even if that means to the SCOTUS.

Until then, the only way we can stay legal gun owners is to follow the current laws, and hope the time comes when we can make a stand for our rights.

 

[dimsum414]

i'm feeling quite oppressed as a law abiding citizen...i shouldn't have to fear the government for wanting a certain type of firearm, they should be fearing me, the point of "We the people" is that we say what we want, and the government obey's that...the original founding fathers fought, and died so that a government wouldn't get too big and powerful, and 230 some odd years later, that's exactly what we have...

i'm all for gun control that keeps guns out of the hands of the BG's, but the problem is that BG's don't give a rats ass about the law...hence them being bad guys...i don't understand what people don't understand about that...BG's DON'T CARE ABOUT LAWS...

if we're, and i mean we're as in the idiot masses, are so concerned about kids and guns, then we will teach them through something called education, teach kids how to safely operate a gun, what to do, what not to do. then we get the "but guns are dangerous" people...but so are cars...and airplanes, and electricity, and a multitude of other things...does this mean we need laws, and consumer protection by the AG? NO, and in fact, i want a refund for that...i don't want to use the AG's consumer protection service anymore....who do i call/talk to about canceling this service?

i almost want to be a test case, just so i could show how stupid these laws/politician's are...but i also don't want to lose my god/federally given right to bear arms here...and quite possibly anywhere else because of this state...

 

[securityboy]

Why don't we push back?

Well my opinion "we" can't agree where to start...there was a similar thead some time ago (sorry I can't find it). basicly there were a huge number of #1 priorities people had...

Eliminate Licenses
Eliminate "restrictions"
go "shall issue"
drop the AW ban
get hi-cap mags legal again(seems like the above but IS different)
No more AG "consumer safety"
No more EOPS approved list
No more transaction registration (ie FA 10's)
Make supressors legal
Eliminate "safe storage"

And there were plenty more plus numerous variations, relatively speaking we are the minority (we being outspoken gun rights folk, not just gun owners), I'd bet if we set up a poll with those 10 items we on this board would not come up with a clear #1 "got to do" ...then once we finished our own in fighting, the real fight begins, and you've all seen how this state votes...I am not saying give up, but as others have mentioned at this point our best hope is probably with in the courts...so who wants to be a test case???

 

[Alchemist17]

Why don't we push back?

Well my opinion "we" can't agree where to start...there was a similar thead some time ago (sorry I can't find it). basicly there were a huge number of #1 priorities people had...

Eliminate Licenses
Eliminate "restrictions"
go "shall issue"
drop the AW ban
get hi-cap mags legal again(seems like the above but IS different)
No more AG "consumer safety"
No more EOPS approved list
No more transaction registration (ie FA 10's)
Make supressors legal
Eliminate "safe storage"

So go with the KISS principle:

"A properly licensed citizen of the Commonwealth shall be entitled to purchase any firearm, firearm component, ammunition, or add-on that is permitted to them by Federal law, provided that such purchase follows all federal requirements for the firearm or component in question. The state shall not impose requirements beyond those imposed by federal law.

The state shall provide a license for a reasonable fee to any citizen of the Commonwealth, unless said citizen is ineligible to own firearms under Federal law."

 

[Fsorrent]

So go with the KISS principle:

"A properly licensed citizen of the Commonwealth shall be entitled to purchase any firearm, firearm component, ammunition, or add-on that is permitted to them by Federal law, provided that such purchase follows all federal requirements for the firearm or component in question. The state shall not impose requirements beyond those imposed by federal law.

The state shall provide a license for a reasonable fee to any citizen of the Commonwealth, unless said citizen is ineligible to own firearms under Federal law."

I'll agree. Once you go shall, the others should come as well.