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Why didn't Tiller carry a gun?

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jcr

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I'm not trying to start a discussion like others where the thread gets closed.

This Kansas doctor had been shot and wounded previously. His clinic had been (fire?) bombed.

Does anyone know if he disparaged self-defense and CCWing? Did he hire personal bodyguards usually/sometimes?

On a related topic, anti-gunners will often ask, "Why would anyone want to carry in a church?" This is another example of why some would want to.
 
You might want to post a link to what you are talking about. Right now I'm sitting here going, "Who is Tiller, and what is all this church talk about?"
 
Te abortion doctor that got killed. He was know for doing VERY late term and partial birth abortions. Not exactly someone I would want to have coffee with.
 
Mike-Mike said:
Te abortion doctor that got killed. He was know for doing VERY late term and partial birth abortions. Not exactly someone I would want to have coffee with.
Click to expand...

I really hate the black and white attitude that the doctor was a moral cripple for doing what he did. Here's some more background.

http://www.boingboing.net/2009/06/02/online-personal-narr.html

Susan Hill, President of the National Women's Health Foundation, who knew Dr. Tiller for over two decades and referred girls and women to his clinic, said in a phone interview, "We always sent the really tragic cases to Tiller." Those included women diagnosed with cancer who needed abortions to qualify for chemotherapy, women who learned late in their pregnancies that their wanted babies had fatal illnesses, and rape victims so young they didn't realize they were pregnant for months. "We sent him 11-year-olds, 12-year-olds who were way too far along for anybody [else] to see," said Hill. "Eleven-year-olds don't tell anybody. Sometimes they don't even know they've had a period."

Since the news of Dr. Tiller's murder broke, personal narratives from people who used his services have been appearing around the Web. A commenter at the blog Balloon Juice told the story of finding out in the eighth month of his wife's pregnancy that she was carrying conjoined twins. "Conjoined twins alone is not what was so difficult but the way they were joined meant that at best only one child would survive the surgery to separate them and the survivor would more than likely live a brief and painful life filled with surgery and organ transplants." They chose to terminate the much-wanted pregnancy, rather than bring a child into the world only to suffer and die. "The nightmare of our decision and the aftermath was only made bearable by the warmth and compassion of Dr. Tiller and his remarkable staff."

A commenter on Metafilter tells a similar story: "My wife and I spent a week in Dr. Tiller's care after we learned our 21 week fetus had a severe defect incompatible with life. The laws in our state prevented us from ending the pregnancy there, and Dr. Tiller was one of maybe three choices in the whole nation at that gestational age." He went on to share his memories of Dr. Tiller. "I remember him firmly stating that he regarded the abortion debate in the US to be about the control of women's sexuality and reproduction. I remember he spent over six hours in one-on-one care with my wife when there was concern she had an infection. We're talking about a physician here. Six hours.... The walls of the clinic reception and waiting room are literally covered with letters from patients thanking him. Some were heartbreaking -- obviously young and/or poorly educated people thanking Dr. Tiller for being there when they had no other options, explaining their family, church, etc. had abandoned them."
Click to expand...
 
hminsky said:
I really hate the black and white attitude that the doctor was a moral cripple for doing what he did. Here's some more background.
Click to expand...

It's not any different than the gang banger who is killed/kills someone, then his mother trots out all the good things he did in his life. Doing good things doesn't negate the bad things.
 
Maybe he thought if he thought taking someone's life was unjustifiable.

I dont beleive in abortion and I dont think you should kill someone just because you dont agree with what they are all about. This guy must of known it was coming; doing what he did for a living. It's a shame he was killed (as a person) but I will not miss what he did for a living. I wonder if one of the unborn children he put to "put to sleep" would of grown up to have a happy life, loving family or if they would of did the world a favor and cured something or if they would of saved another life while giving their own. This guy wasnt exactly killing serial killers.

None the less, it is still horrible that he was killed and the person who did the deed will never enjoy the rest of their life.
 
jcr said:
I'm not trying to start a discussion like others where the thread gets closed.

This Kansas doctor had been shot and wounded previously. His clinic had been (fire?) bombed.

Does anyone know if he disparaged self-defense and CCWing? Did he hire personal bodyguards usually/sometimes?

On a related topic, anti-gunners will often ask, "Why would anyone want to carry in a church?" This is another example of why some would want to.
Click to expand...

He had body guards on and off over the years, but armed body guards are expensive and I suspect he had to pick and choose when to use them. I do not know if he carried or was authorized to carry or if he eschewed firearms.

One other thing to keep in mind, not everyone has the mind set to provide their own personal security with a gun. They may have no moral objection but may know something about themselves that prevents them from doing what is required to do.

And to all others, keep this about the OPs question. No need to debate something which will only lead us into a rat hole.

ETA: His being armed may not have made a difference. He made a mistake of allowing himself to be confined in a small space with lots of people and was jumped. He may not have seen it coming. As a result, he was not terribly smart about his surroundings.
 
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Mike-Mike said:
+1 --I started it.. Lets not do this here.
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Thanks Mike-Mike. The OP actually asked a good question and there is lots to learn about personal security from the above event. I doubt and hope that none of us here are ever that sought after that we suffer the personal security nightmare this guy had, but all it takes is one psycho ex spouse, etc and you could be in a similar situation.
 
Were I him I'd be wearing body armor 24/7 as well as carrying. He was very aware of the serious threats on his life. No clue why he didn't make a serious effort to protect himself.
 
It's quite conceivable to me that he was simply someone who could not imagine killing another person.

And this is NOT (Please, really let's not close this thread guys) counting abortions.

I would never recommend for my Mother-In-Law to carry a gun, because she'd never use it. She's just not constitutionally suited for it. Not her fault, she's just built that way.

Who knows, maybe Tiller was of a similar mindset?
 
Bill Nance said:
It's quite conceivable to me that he was simply someone who could not imagine killing another person.

And this is NOT (Please, really let's not close this thread guys) counting abortions.

I would never recommend for my Mother-In-Law to carry a gun, because she'd never use it. She's just not constitutionally suited for it. Not her fault, she's just built that way.

Who knows, maybe Tiller was of a similar mindset?
Click to expand...

Guns aren't for everybody. I know, boggles my mind too. [smile]
 
This guy's values are so opposite of mine that I couldn't begin to guess why he would or wouldn't do anything.
 
Off Topic:

hminsky said:
I really hate the black and white attitude that the doctor was a moral cripple for doing what he did. Here's some more background.

http://www.boingboing.net/2009/06/02/online-personal-narr.html
Click to expand...

IMO (and you are free to disagree with me. That's what this country is all about) It is a black and white issue. In a partial birth abortion, the head of the baby is sticking out, the baby is alive and as conscious as a child that age can be. I by no means applaud nor feel vindicated by this man's murder even though I find some of his actions morally wrong.

Back on topic:

Maybe he was disqualified from owning a firearm for some reason, or maybe the church had a no firearms policy. There could be any number of reasons why. The doctor is the only one who knows the reason why he didn't carry a gun. He takes that knowledge to his grave.
 
Well, I guess he was somewhat cautious about his safety-

from
http://www.elpasotimes.com/nationworld/ci_12509170

As one of a few doctors across the nation to perform third-trimester abortions, Tiller had survived an earlier shooting, his clinic was bombed, his home picketed. He hired a Brink's armored truck to take him to work for several weeks, and he frequently had the protection of federal marshals. He built a new surgical center without windows and was known to wear a bulletproof vest, sometimes even to church.
Click to expand...
 
Odd that a Dr. who kills babies for a living and is murdered gets more play time than two soldiers gunned down at a recruiting office.
 
IIRC, wasn't Kansas a No-carry state (no ccw option period) until just recently?
 
When it really comes down to it... if some head case/religious crackpot is determined carry out their mission, being armed or having bodyguards isn't going to do much to prevent the inevitable. Carrying concealed isn't going to do shit if the perpetrator is going to use a rifle from even a short distance, or if their vehicle is wired to blow.

Just the same... if I were Tiller or a doc that performed abortions, I'd sure as hell be armed 24/7/365.
 
Do churches allow people to carry guns during services? If no, it explains a lot.
However, I think if one's job actually makes him a target for extremists, he should always carry PLUS have someone who carries next to him.
 
terraformer said:
He made a mistake of allowing himself to be confined in a small space with lots of people and was jumped. He may not have seen it coming. As a result, he was not terribly smart about his surroundings.
Click to expand...
His wife was nearby, if I remember it right. She could make a real difference, if she would be carrying.
 
???

This guy was screwed up enough to become an abortion doctor, and you are asking why he was not smart enough to carry?[shocked]
 
Can we quit the "B...bbb.bbbbut he's an ABORTION DOCTOR" comments? They've already been done, and are only applicable to the point of this thread in that his particular line of work would be considered by some to be "high risk."

Being an abortion doctor means you're not morally aligned with some of the people on this board, and/or have a difference of opinion on religion, and/or a difference of opinion on when life/rights begin. It does not automatically make you stupid.

Not going to be easy to armchair QB this without a large amount more knowledge than I've seen in print, but for the sake of keeping things nice between board members here, let's try to keep this on topic?

He obviously didn't fall into the "it can't happen to me" crowd since he had hired security for himself and his office, yet he obviously failed - even if only for a moment - to assess a threat.

Why wasn't his hired protection there? If they were, whose failure was this?

Yelena said:
His wife was nearby, if I remember it right. She could make a real difference, if she would be carrying.
Click to expand...
[thinking] Maybe, maybe not. It certainly wouldn't have hurt.
 
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