Why aren't these C&R?

[Transporter]

Got the latest XXXXXXX catalog (self-censored, I know better ) and they list the FEG PA-63 and Walther P-38s, but not as C&R eligible. Anybody know as to why these aren't available to 03 FFL holders?

 

[SKS Ray]

the FEG PA-63 and Walther P-38s

P-38s are, the Walther P1 pistols aren't because they are newer production German police guns.
Most handguns aren't because they simply aren't over 50 years old. I'm still wondering why the ATF allowed the CZ82 to become C&R when the CZ70 and CZ75 models aren't.

 

[kevin9]

Got the latest XXXXXXX catalog (self-censored, I know better ) and they list the FEG PA-63 and Walther P-38s, but not as C&R eligible. Anybody know as to why these aren't available to 03 FFL holders?

Because they are not old enough yet. From what I have read the PA-63 was produced from the mid-50's until sometime in the 60's. That means all but the earliest ones are too new (<50 years old).

WWII P38s would be be C&R, but they've also been produced from 1957 till 2000. That means all but the oldest ones are still to new too.

 

[Transporter]

So PA-63s built thru 1957 should be good to go. does anybody know if there's a way to date check them?

And my understanding with regards to the CZ-82 is that it is a now former military arm, never available to the general public, and phased out of military/police service. The CZ-75 is still a current production pistol, available to the general public. Except those of us protected from them by the Great Commonwealth.

 

[SKS Ray]

So PA-63s built thru 1957 should be good to go. does anybody know if there's a way to date check them?

Check some auction sites. There were a handfull of people selling the early Polish and Romanian Tokarev pistols as C&R because they were over 50 years old, despite a safety added which should void the C&R status since its a permanent alteration the the gun.
Of course I think all of them now are C&R status. Who knows why the ATF does what it does and decides what they do?
They still can't make up their mind if a Dragunov stock is a pistol grip or not and there have already been a bunch of Saiga rifles imported with Dragunov style stocks.
One day in a perfect world the ATF will throw their hands in the air and say "screw it, let them own what they want as long as they're licensed"
Yeah Right! And I'll see Massachusetts drop the AWB as Ted Kennedy starts hunting flying pigs with a brand spanking new Arsenal Inc AK.

 

[digitech]

P-38s are, the Walther P1 pistols aren't because they are newer production German police guns.
Most handguns aren't because they simply aren't over 50 years old. I'm still wondering why the ATF allowed the CZ82 to become C&R when the CZ70 and CZ75 models aren't.

This explains the C&R status of the CZ-82

Click here

 

[SKS Ray]

Quick! Someone make a museum of Hungarian Maks!

 

[jpattersonnh]

As stated before, they are 2 new! I have a P1 that is a 1977 manufacture, it has some of the features found on the P4. It was used by German police till 1991 or so. The Feg Pa63 (not a Mak) was also used till the 1990's by Hungarian police. Date of manufacture means nothing. Date of service and ammo obsolescence does. jp

 

[kevin9]

Date of manufacture means nothing. Date of service and ammo obsolescence does. jp

That is not what the ATF says:

Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm.

 

[jdubois]

Quick! Someone make a museum of Hungarian Maks!

Seriously! We should get some dinky little town to let us set up an NES firearms museum as an official municipal museum, and then start declaring EVERYTHING as C&R eligible

 

[jpattersonnh]

That is not what the ATF says:

So the P38/P1/P4 were made from Mid 30's to 1980's, all have the same basic design. It is as a group, not individual firearms. The M14/M1A1 is not C&R. The 1st ones rolled out in the late 1950's.. still made. jp

 

[digitech]

So the P38/P1/P4 were made from Mid 30's to 1980's, all have the same basic design. It is as a group, not individual firearms. The M14/M1A1 is not C&R. The 1st ones rolled out in the late 1950's.. still made. jp

Yes indeed any that where manufactured prior to 1958 would be a C&R. It does not have to be on the list to be a C&R.

"Firearms automatically attain curio or relic (C&R) status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF’s C&R list. However, if your C&R item is regulated under the National Firearms Act (NFA) and you desire removal from the provisions of the NFA, you must submit the firearm to the Firearms Technology Branch for evaluation and a formal classification."

Found Here

 

[kevin9]

Firearms that are C&R because they are on "the list" are classified by type or class. Firearms that are C&R because of age (>=50 years) are determined by manufacture date of the individual firearm, not the class

Regarding the specific firearms you mentioned P38/P1/P4/M1A1/M14 I could not find any of them on the C&R list, but I did not do an exhaustive search. Given they do not appear to be on the list the age of the individual gun is the determining factor:

• P38: wikipedia indicates that P38 production from 1939 to 1945 and 1957 to 2000. This means that the WW2 era ones are C&R and that a few of the second run one would be too. It's not clear to me whether the second run P-38s are consider P-38s or P1s and P4s.
• P1/P4: According towikipedia and world.guns P1s and P4s were produced starting in 1957, which means some early P1s and P4s would be C&R, if unmodified, but most are not yet.
• M1A1: It appears that both kinds of M1A1s (M1 carbine variant and Thompson SMG ) from original production (e.g., not replicas unless they are quite old) would be C&R.
• M14: Again from wikipedia, if you find an unmodified pre-production M14 it would be C&R: Good luck given it apparently did not begin production until 1959.

 

[vellnueve]

So the P38/P1/P4 were made from Mid 30's to 1980's, all have the same basic design. It is as a group, not individual firearms. The M14/M1A1 is not C&R. The 1st ones rolled out in the late 1950's.. still made. jp

You are WRONG!

Any firearm that hits 50 years old = C&R. Doesn't matter if it's still made or not.