Which pump shotgun for 3-gun?

[Deleted member 67409]

Got a question about shotguns. I intend to start competing in 3-gun in the Heavy Metal division and in "shoot what you brought" matches. HM normally requires a 12-gauge pump without optics. Google says most competitors in 3-gun use Improved Cylinder chokes:

https://www.multigunmedia.com/3gn-choke-and-loads.pdf


View: https://www.reddit.com/r/3gun/comments/5u2iad/what_choke_do_you_use/


In New England, most matches necessitate 8+1 magazines. An 8+1 mag means I need about a 20 inch to 26 inch barrel. 20 to 21 would be most practical, I could get by with a 24 to 25, and a 26 is on the long end, although I could get a 10+1 mag with a longer barrel. We don't really have "physical" matches in New England so a 26" barrel wouldn't be too much of a pain but that much barrel is just not necessary in 3-gun.

I've narrowed it down to three options and here's the pros and cons of each:

*Ithaca M37 Home Defense. Pros: comes with a 20" barrel and 8+1 mag as standard. Cons: cut for cylinder choke, highest on the price chart, and not much aftermarket support.

*Remington 870 Wingmaster. Pros: the universal pump shotgun and cut for choke tubes. Cons: if I buy an older one, it might not be cut for chokes, comes with a 26" barrel, and I would need an aftermarket mag.

*Browning BPS Stalker. Pros: least expensive of the three, cut for choke tubes. Cons: 26" barrel, $125 aftermarket 8-round mag.

I'm going to visit a few gun stores this weekend but I'm already familiar with the 870 Wingmaster.

 

[eboos]

Not having shot the others, I would go with a Remington 870. There are nearly unlimited barrels, magazine tubes, and accessories available for it, and you can get it pretty much anywhere.

 

[allen-1]

Remington 870 has a proven track record.
26" barrel isn't a bad thing for 3Gun.

We've had 80 yard slug shots on some of our setups, along with clays at 30 feet.

Improved Cylinder is the tightest choke you can run that can handle slugs.
That's what I'm running in my Mossberg 930 for 3Gun.

 

[StevieP]

The answer to every "which pump shotgun" is always going to come down to a choice between a Remington 870, and a Mossberg 500.

I'm an 870 guy, but haven't actually shot mine in a couple years...

 

[enbloc]

You should be able to do anything with a cylinder bore that you can with an improved cylinder choke at 3-gun distances.

As to 8+1 cap. You can add a +2 to an 18.5" barrel and not look/feel crazy... Ghost ring sights will aid in accuracy and repeatability.

Oh, and you get the whole setup for around $250...

Hawk 982 8+1 (using 2 3/4" shells)

For +3, use the +2 Choate mag extension with the stock follower, not the 3" orange butt-plug in photo...

 

[Deleted member 67409]

Remington 870 has a proven track record.
26" barrel isn't a bad thing for 3Gun.

We've had 80 yard slug shots on some of our setups, along with clays at 30 feet.

Improved Cylinder is the tightest choke you can run that can handle slugs.
That's what I'm running in my Mossberg 930 for 3Gun.

If a 26" barrel isn't a problem in 3G, then the easiest and probably cheapest option is a used 870 Wingmaster with a 26" barrel cut for choke tubes. That would give me the ability to use choke tubes, the ability to put on an 8 or 10 round extension, and the barrel length wouldn't be an issue.

 

[SJan]

You should be able to do anything with a cylinder bore that you can with an improved cylinder choke at 3-gun distances.

Ghost ring sights will aid in accuracy and repeatability..

I strongly recommend something with interchangeable chokes. I have seen a guy hit a heavy popper 3 times with a cylinder choke at a distance too far for the pattern, and it not fall. It's better to have the option to change chokes even if one choke is used 90 percent of the time.

I also recommend a rib with a single bead instead of rifle like sights. If the gun fits you, and it's just as important in 3 gun vs on the skeet field, you will hit what you are looking at without the added distraction of sights. Even shooting slugs out to 100 yards, rib and bead are preferred.

Oh, and Benelli supernova.

 

[whacko]

Remington 870 has a proven track record.
26" barrel isn't a bad thing for 3Gun.

We've had 80 yard slug shots on some of our setups, along with clays at 30 feet.

Improved Cylinder is the tightest choke you can run that can handle slugs.
That's what I'm running in my Mossberg 930 for 3Gun.

Not that this matters much because the 3 gun guys usually run cylinder bore or improved cylinder.......but slugs can be fired through tighter chokes than IC. Read the owners manual on the gun and that determines the tightest choke useable safely with slug. It's not a hard rule that all shotguns are limited to IC choke for slugs. My go to hunting shotgun is a mossy 500 and with the fixes full choke barrel slugs are ok according to mossberg. Ive taken many deer with that fixed full choke barrel with slugs.

Bottom line......when it comes to slugs.....read the owners manual.

My club runs 3 gun a few times a year. One stage last year was a vertical spinner that the shooters had to "flip". I run practice plate shoots at the club 2 times a month. The week before the 3 gun event A few guys asked me to set up the spinner so they could practice with their shotguns. They all had cylinder bore and IC chokes and some of them could not get it to flip and some took 6 or more shots to get it to flip. I happened to have my browning auto 5 with the full choke barrel with me because I was patterning it for Turkey season. I was able to flip it on 2 shots every time. That's because the full choke put all the pellets on the plate......the guys with open chokes most of the pellets were not hitting the plate because the.spread was wider. Guys that had changeable chokes switched to full and got better results. For the match they all changed to full for that stage (well
.....the ones that were knowledgeable about chokes anyway). My point......having changeable choke barrel has its advantages even for 3 gun.

 

[FiremanBob]

Why not a Mossy 590M?

 

[Dennis in MA]

Why not a Mossy 590M?

In my opinion, while reliable, it isn't NEARLY as smooth as an 870. Ever. I love the tang safety of a 590, but I dislike the action.

I'd go with the 870, if you haven't guessed by now. .


Finally - as much as I got sick of cowboy action shooting with the all-day-to-shoot-120rds stuff, there was something to be said of forcing people to load 2 shotgun shells at a time. Every action sport gets compromised by the gear wars. An 8 shot shotgun???? 26" bbl?????? Yikes!

 

[whacko]

In my opinion, while reliable, it isn't NEARLY as smooth as an 870. Ever. I love the tang safety of a 590, but I dislike the action.

I'd go with the 870, if you haven't guessed by now. .


Finally - as much as I got sick of cowboy action shooting with the all-day-to-shoot-120rds stuff, there was something to be said of forcing people to load 2 shotgun shells at a time. Every action sport gets compromised by the gear wars. An 8 shot shotgun???? 26" bbl?????? Yikes!

The cowboy action events died off at my club years ago. Participation dwindled. In its hey day I've been told that it was sunup to sundown to get all the shooters through and yes......you spent a whole day to spend about 4 to 5 minutes actually shooting.

I admire any competition with fire arms that get people into the game......but personally.....spending the day hanging out with Hollywood dressed up "cowboys" with fantasy names is kind of creepy lol

 

[Deleted member 67409]

Why not a Mossy 590M?

Few reasons. I've handled both the 590M and the Remington 870DM and they're awkward-handling shotguns. 10 or 20 shells won't improve that. I've also never been a Mossberg fan. Mossberg makes one 590M that accepts choke tubes but it comes with a ghost ring.

590M Mag-Fed Pump-Action | O.F. Mossberg & Sons, Inc.

 

[allen-1]

Not that this matters much because the 3 gun guys usually run cylinder bore or improved cylinder.......but slugs can be fired through tighter chokes than IC. Read the owners manual on the gun and that determines the tightest choke useable safely with slug. It's not a hard rule that all shotguns are limited to IC choke for slugs. My go to hunting shotgun is a mossy 500 and with the fixes full choke barrel slugs are ok according to mossberg. Ive taken many deer with that fixed full choke barrel with slugs.

Bottom line......when it comes to slugs.....read the owners manual.

My club runs 3 gun a few times a year. One stage last year was a vertical spinner that the shooters had to "flip". I run practice plate shoots at the club 2 times a month. The week before the 3 gun event A few guys asked me to set up the spinner so they could practice with their shotguns. They all had cylinder bore and IC chokes and some of them could not get it to flip and some took 6 or more shots to get it to flip. I happened to have my browning auto 5 with the full choke barrel with me because I was patterning it for Turkey season. I was able to flip it on 2 shots every time. That's because the full choke put all the pellets on the plate......the guys with open chokes most of the pellets were not hitting the plate because the.spread was wider. Guys that had changeable chokes switched to full and got better results. For the match they all changed to full for that stage (well
.....the ones that were knowledgeable about chokes anyway). My point......having changeable choke barrel has its advantages even for 3 gun.

but slugs can be fired through tighter chokes than IC

Huh. Learn something every day. I thought that was universal. Thank you.

 

[Machete]

you will hit what you are looking at without the added distraction of sights.

What in the wild wild world of FUDD is this?! Sights are a distraction now? I get that a hi-viz bead on a vent rib is greasy fast, having used one in the past. However, much like a set of those big dot sights on handguns, you're trading speed for precision when it matters most.

 

[whacko]

What in the wild wild world of FUDD is this?! Sights are a distraction now? I get that a hi-viz bead on a vent rib is greasy fast, having used one in the past. However, much like a set of those big dot sights on handguns, you're trading speed for precision when it matters most.

Precision? I thought we were talking about shotguns.....my bad.

3 gun is about speed......and when using a shotgun to hit poppers or clay pigeons on a stand you don't need a ghost ring sight and yes.....a bead is better for that type of work. But don't listen to me......you've used a vent rib with a bead once in the past so your an expert.

 

[ILikeGlocks]

What in the wild wild world of FUDD is this?! Sights are a distraction now? I get that a hi-viz bead on a vent rib is greasy fast, having used one in the past. However, much like a set of those big dot sights on handguns, you're trading speed for precision when it matters most.

 

[Machete]

I see I hit a nerve there. Nice job with reading comprehension though, conflating "one" and "once", so I probably won't listen to you. You are correct though, it is about speed. Forget hitting what you aim at, shit's not important anymore. You certainly don't need ghost rings or rifle sights to hit static, close targets as long as you don't muck up your kentucky windage while channeling your inner Ricky Bobby. They certainly help with precision though regardless of what your task is.

Precision? I thought we were talking about shotguns.....my bad.

3 gun is about speed......and when using a shotgun to hit poppers or clay pigeons on a stand you don't need a ghost ring sight and yes.....a bead is better for that type of work. But don't listen to me......you've used a vent rib with a bead once in the past so your an expert.

 

[whacko]

I see I hit a nerve there. Nice job with reading comprehension though, conflating "one" and "once", so I probably won't listen to you. You are correct though, it is about speed. Forget hitting what you aim at, shit's not important anymore. You certainly don't need ghost rings or rifle sights to hit static, close targets as long as you don't muck up your kentucky windage while channeling your inner Ricky Bobby. They certainly help with precision though regardless of what your task is.

Yeah....don't listen to me.

1. Your statement about aim when referring to a shotgun discussion tells me alot about how much you know about shotguns.

2. I've knocked literally hundreds of game animals down with a shotgun.....ducks rabbit snowshoe hare pheasant grouse you name it.......all in flight or running.

The key with a shotgun is fast mount and POINT. The bead assists you in the point and with a IC choke and birdshot if you need precision and ghost ring sights to hit stationary targets fast you're doing it wrong.

Ill add this.......if you want ghost rings on a shotty go for it. I actually don't give a shit. But your comment calling a guy a fudd because he understands the true nature of a shotgun and knows that a bead is better for speed on close in targets.....moving or not.....that's when you struck a nerve. A good shot gunner can hit Clay's on a berm or a knock down plate at 25 to 40 yard FAST without even seeing the bead let alone using "sights". When I cuff a rabbit on the run I mount.....look at the rabbit.....apply swing through lead and pull the trigger. I never even see the bead. That's what shotgunning is.

 

[Eric H]

Get whichever shotgun fits you best, and it'll be more than suitable!

 

[SJan]

What in the wild wild world of FUDD is this?! Sights are a distraction now? I get that a hi-viz bead on a vent rib is greasy fast, having used one in the past. However, much like a set of those big dot sights on handguns, you're trading speed for precision when it matters most.

yes, I think sights are a distraction on a shotgun. Its my opinion, but FWIW I am a decent clay shooter, and an accomplished 3 gunner.

 

[Asaltweapon]

I thought you pointed a shotgun.

Seriously, why no love for a BPS? I have a much older Wingmaster and have no love for Mossburg

 

[Machete]

Your statement about how shotguns shouldn't be aimed tells me much about what you know about shotguns as well, man.

I don't think we're gonna agree on this, as we clearly are coming at it from opposite sides of the fence. No disrespect, but literally everything you have said is some Elmer Fudd shit (pointing, game animals, chokes), hence the earlier "fudd" comment. My initial comment was abrupt and severe; I should have been clear that there ain't nothing wrong with that. It is one methodology for using a blundergatt, and it works for it's particular lane. I'm coming at it from the defensive side of the house, which works differently.

In retrospect, this was not the appropriate thread for me to post that in, as it WAS specifically about 3-gun so I should have expected jimmies to be rustled.

Yeah....don't listen to me.

1. Your statement about aim when referring to a shotgun discussion tells me alot about how much you know about shotguns.

2. I've knocked literally hundreds of game animals down with a shotgun.....ducks rabbit snowshoe hare pheasant grouse you name it.......all in flight or running.

The key with a shotgun is fast mount and POINT. The bead assists you in the point and with a IC choke and birdshot if you need precision and ghost ring sights to hit stationary targets fast you're doing it wrong.

Ill add this.......if you want ghost rings on a shotty go for it. I actually don't give a shit. But your comment calling a guy a fudd because he understands the true nature of a shotgun and knows that a bead is better for speed......that's when you struck a nerve.

 

[whacko]

Your statement about how shotguns shouldn't be aimed tells me much about what you know about shotguns as well, man.

I don't think we're gonna agree on this, as we clearly are coming at it from opposite sides of the fence. No disrespect, but literally everything you have said is some Elmer Fudd shit (pointing, game animals, chokes), hence the earlier "fudd" comment. My initial comment was abrupt and severe; I should have been clear that there ain't nothing wrong with that. It is one methodology for using a blundergatt, and it works for it's particular lane. I'm coming at it from the defensive side of the house, which works differently.

In retrospect, this was not the appropriate thread for me to post that in, as it WAS specifically about 3-gun so I should have expected jimmies to be rustled.

Nice job sneaking in the Elmer fudd comment again. Maybe your unaware that its considered a derogatory comment in these circles? Assuming that because I hunt alot I don't have any defensive long gun experience is quite ignorant.

I get defensive situations too bro

If I were toting a shotgun for defensive use against 2 legged vermin it would have a bead. Fast mount.....point...pull trigger. Hunting applications do have crossover skills. How is hitting a shithead in the chest QUICKLY at closer range any different with a shotgun than hitting a deer in the engine room QUICKLY that much different. Both require fast response and target acquisition......done with buckshot and a IC choke the game is relatively the same.

Defensive use......by the way.....Actually been there done that...."shoot move and communicate"....not with a shotgun but with an m4 and a 240b. Ill add this.....a door breacher in an infantry squad in the army has a mossy 500......(m500 is the army nomenclature) and it has a bead. Just saying.

Do you have real world experience with "defensive" long gun use or do you practice on the range alot?

I've been asked by friends at the club to join them at 3 gun shoots. I don't. Reason.....I spent the better part of 2.5 years of my life wearing a kit loaded down with a combat load of 210 and plate carriers while being married to an m4. Prayed every day I didn't need to use it (was unsuccessful in those prayers) but always ready to snap too if necessary and took care of business when required. Running around a range with that stuff again is In no way my idea of a fun time. My counselor at the VA vet center would probably advise me against it anyway.

 

[whacko]

I thought you pointed a shotgun.

Seriously, why no love for a BPS? I have a much older Wingmaster and have no love for Mossburg

Bps is a great shotgun. A bit higher on the price scale than most pump actions though.

 

[Dennis in MA]

The cowboy action events died off at my club years ago. Participation dwindled. In its hey day I've been told that it was sunup to sundown to get all the shooters through and yes......you spent a whole day to spend about 4 to 5 minutes actually shooting.

I admire any competition with fire arms that get people into the game......but personally.....spending the day hanging out with Hollywood dressed up "cowboys" with fantasy names is kind of creepy lol

LOL. I can relate. Although for most cowboys, dress-up was a 2-days-a-month sort of thing. Pretend Bikers not only often times wear their biker gear, like, EVERYWHERE believing they are Jax Teller, but they have nicknames they use ONLY with their motorbike riding pals. I happen to know a Snipah AND a Bullseye. ROFL!!!!

As far as the stages and such, a typical SASS match would be 60 people over 6 stages, shot on 3 ranges. 3 groups of 20. But pulling 20 people through a course of fire, along with having a load and unload table, plus 2-3 "spotters" because it was an all-steel match was a lot of work. Of the 20, only about 1/2 did anything other than talk. So you had 10 people running around like crazy-folk, rush-load, shoot, rush-unload and then run around again. The other 10 would wander around and be shocked it was their turn to shoot. It was an hour or more per stage.

Given the gun cleaning afterwards and the packing the night before, it became a chore to me. Get up at 6am to get there for 7 to start shooting (hopefully) at 8 to finish at 3, drive 30-60 min home, clean everything and collapse. It was more time consuming and exhausting than golf!

Hung out with some great people, though. And enjoyed the actual shooting. And the period guns.

 

[allen-1]

I thought you pointed a shotgun.

Seriously, why no love for a BPS? I have a much older Wingmaster and have no love for Mossburg

The OP is planning on shooting "Heavy Metal" division of 3gun. Which means that he's restricted to a .308 or heavier, .45 single stack pistol and a 12Gauge PUMP ACTION shotgun.

 

[Deleted member 67409]

The OP is planning on shooting "Heavy Metal" division of 3gun. Which means that he's restricted to a .308 or heavier, .45 single stack pistol and a 12Gauge PUMP ACTION shotgun.

The BPS is a pump

 

[Dan S]

Get a Benelli Super Nova. It has the Comfortech stock, interchangeable chokes, the stock can be adjusted. The loading port is for 3 1/2" shells, and the lifter stays down while you load.

 

[whacko]

LOL. I can relate. Although for most cowboys, dress-up was a 2-days-a-month sort of thing. Pretend Bikers not only often times wear their biker gear, like, EVERYWHERE believing they are Jax Teller, but they have nicknames they use ONLY with their motorbike riding pals. I happen to know a Snipah AND a Bullseye. ROFL!!!!

As far as the stages and such, a typical SASS match would be 60 people over 6 stages, shot on 3 ranges. 3 groups of 20. But pulling 20 people through a course of fire, along with having a load and unload table, plus 2-3 "spotters" because it was an all-steel match was a lot of work. Of the 20, only about 1/2 did anything other than talk. So you had 10 people running around like crazy-folk, rush-load, shoot, rush-unload and then run around again. The other 10 would wander around and be shocked it was their turn to shoot. It was an hour or more per stage.

Given the gun cleaning afterwards and the packing the night before, it became a chore to me. Get up at 6am to get there for 7 to start shooting (hopefully) at 8 to finish at 3, drive 30-60 min home, clean everything and collapse. It was more time consuming and exhausting than golf!

Hung out with some great people, though. And enjoyed the actual shooting. And the period guns.

Oh the part time biker gang members. Yup
......I know a "godfather" and also a "sniper"

 

[whacko]

The BPS is a pump

It sure is