whats the AK deal??

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i have a MAK 90...and i want to purchase another "ak variant"...ive seen the WASRs around for cheap money but heard about problems with feeding and reliability...does anyone know if the robinson armament veprs are allowed in MA? i have a vepr sporting rifle in .308 but i'd like one of the ak variants in either .223 or 7.62x39...any suggestions from AK gurus out there as to what i should look for in an ak is much appreciated....thank ya
 
Vepr is fine. Just make sure there's no flash hider or folding stock if you have the pistol grip. My brother just got himself one in .308 and dressed it up like a Dragunov. Hell getting mags for it, but you shouldn't have that problem if you buy it in a normal caliber.

But I love my Romanian one, so what the hell do I know?
 
I haven't heard of many feeding or reliability issues with the WASR rifles. However there are issues with canted front sights and gas blocks, but those can be easily spotted before you buy it. There were some issues with the mag well not being cut properly, but those were the first ones, and has since been resolved. I have a SAR-1 and am completely happy with it.

Adam
 
adam...is a SAR1 a newer WASR? and how can you spot those problems you mentioned? all of the veprs i can find on gunbroker are on backorder which sux...iwas looking at the wasrs cause theyre so damn cheap...maybe ill get one and have the guys at ZHA take care of the magwell??? how can you tell a newer wasr from an older 1?
 
Take a look at this page. http://www.gunsnet.net/Linx310/model.htm
There is tons of information about the Romanian AK rifles there. On the left, there are tutorials about the canted FSB and Gas Block. They will show you exactly what to look for. The SAR-1 is actually a pre-WASR rifle, but has it's benefits. There is information on all the Romanian rifles on that site.

Adam
 
Someone please educate me on these. What is the progression or relationship of AK47, AK74, SKS, WASR, SAR, VEPR, and others?

Keep it simple. Maybe a chart or matrix with name, year, caliber, improvements or something. Thanks.
 
Ok I'll take a crack at this from a user's practical point of view. Not a historian or gunsmith, so I'm not going to try to get into all the hairy details and embarrass myself. Even though the term sporting/non-sporting rifle may be used to explain some models, I thorougly reject its validity.

SKS: 7.62x39 Semiauto rifle, Usually have that little nub of a mag, but some can accept full size ak banana mags.

AK47: 7.62x39 Full auto assault rifle (we get semi auto versions)

AK74: 5.45x39 Full auto assault rifle (we get semi auto versions) with some internal changes

SAR: Romanian AK imported by Century. Some parts are romanian, other parts are US to comply with the thing about non sporting rifles having X number of US parts are ok to import. Generally anything that comes out of Century like this (SAR, WASR, FALs, etc) looks like a bunch of monkeys did it. All this monkey stuff is fixable pretty easily if you take a look at the linx310 site for more explanation, or you know what to look out for when you go shopping and avoid the guns with the problems. SAR-1 is 7.62, SAR-2 is 5.45, and SAR-3 is .223. SAR-3 was designed around a metal east german Weiger mag, so if you hear about feeding problems, it's usually somebody using a mag other than the weiger mags with them. No problems here with my SAR-3 except the day I ran out of Wolf ammo and decided to use up the box of "Hey, try a box of this" polymer cased .223. As the second round got picked up to be fed the plastic MELTED and blew up in my face. I don't think the gun got hurt, as the gas left via the half open side of the receiver instead of having to find the metal with the most give. Should've seen to look on the newbie shooter's face who was watching!

WASR: One day the ATF said "No More SARs" to Century. Apparently it was still a no-no for the gun to have high cap mags even though it went through all the hoops with the parts monkeys. The solution to this was to make a gun that could only accept single stack low-cap mags. And so now WASRs come out of Century instead of SARs (built by the same monkeys, except a little older and a little blinder). The strange thing is, I've never seen a low cap WASR, though I know they exist. By the time they get to Four Seasons or an owner's hands, somebody takes a dremel or something to them and makes them into a gun that can accept double stacks. There's definitely a WASR-1 and WASR-2 in the same caliber scheme as the SARs. I read somewhere there's a WASR-3 but I've never seen or heard of someone who actually owns one.

RPK: "Machine gun" version of an AK with 50% thicker receiver metal and other beefyness.

VEPR: Semiauto AK made for civilians based off a beefy RPK receiver. 5.45, 7.62, .308, and .223. Imported by Robinson Arms. Good quality, not like Century.

Saiga: Semiauto AK made for civilians that the russian company goes way out of their way to make into a "sporting" rifle that can't be unmade into a non sporting rifle easily. Most prominent change is the placement of the trigger guard and fire control group way in the back of the receiver so that you can't put an AK pistol grip on it (or any other stock designed for AKs). It's possible with tools to move that FCG forward Comes in 7.62, .308, .223, and 12 gauge(!). If the 12 gauges ever get cheap again, I'm getting one.
 
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jhrosier said:
I'd be VERY interested in a Drag stock set for my .308 VEPR. Any idea where he got the stock???
TIA, Jack
vepr.jpg


Got a Choate Dragunov stock ($50) for MAK-90 stamped receivers. With a little sanding and dremel work (on the stock, not the rifle) it fits like a glove. Also got the cheek piece ($10) and a 3/4 inch spacer ($3) to make it a little longer. Lots of places sell those.

Got the black slotted handguard from Robinson Arms. At $80 it's by far the biggest ripoff I've ever seen. But it's a gift for my brother, so what else am I gonna do? Because the picture is pretty dark you don't see the slots but you can see them better here.

Got the POSP 6x42 scope from Freedom Optics . It does come with the eyepiece but he didn't put it on for the picture. I think the original scope is supposed to be either 4x24 or 8x42, but the 8x42 is a little too much magnification at this point. So we got the 6x42, more magnification but same field of view as 4x24. Briefly thought about getting a 4-8x42 variable one but I read that you have to pick a magnification and stick to it or your zero changes, so decided to keep it simple.

Whenever the flash hiders come back in stock at Robinson, I'll get him one of those too. That would really finish off the front end nicely.

So we end up with a .308 "dragunov" (hey, it's just as much a dragunov as a ROMAK-3 is!) Though finding mags is going to be hell (He's only got one 10 and one 5).
 
7.62, 5.45, or 223; Is any one better or not than the other in:

rate by:
1) reliability (feeding, ejecting, etc.)
2) accuracy (cans and plastic jugs, or hunting?)
3) price/availability of ammo in this caliber
4) price/availability of guns in this caliber
5) power
 
I would not pick a gun in 5.45 unless I was striving for some sort of historical authenticity in an AK-74 (and judging by my picks of a sar-3 and a fake dragunov, that's at the bottom of my list). It's harder to find than 7.62x39 and smaller than .223.

The following are a collection of gross generalities about ammo... Somebody like Nickle could do a much better job. And this now enters into classic "internet argument" territory, so watch out.

7.62x39 wins in the power department, but .223 wins in the accuracy department. 7.62x39 has a big fat bullet and .223 is skinny. One old cliche is that "you're not supposed to even hunt deer with a .223, so what good is it blah blah blah blah...." Ok, but because the 7.62x39 is short and fat, the ballistic drop in inches and velocity after 2-3 hundred yards gets much worse than .223 and has a shorter effective range (I have a chart about it somewhere... but can't find it now)

I'm not sure if one is more reliable than the other. Every time I've had feeding problems of any cartridge it's been the mags fault, and easily fixed with a new mag or spring. If you're talking about whether it goes click or bang, you get what you pay for in whatever caliber. There's cheap bad stuff and more expensive good stuff in both. As stated one previous post, polymer cased ammo will blow up in your face in a hot gun.

7.62x39 used to be cheaper than .223, but for some reason that changed over the past couple months and then people made a run on whatever was left, making it even harder to get. I've never looked into they hows or whys that much because I don't have any 7.62x39 guns. Some people say this will go back to being the way it used to be by the end of the year.

I picked .223 95% because if I ever got an AR (which came true eventually) I wouldn't have to stock two kinds of carbine ammo. I tell myself I like it for its "accuracy" but who's kidding who when we're nit picking accuracy on an AK-47. +100 yard shooting is for my M1A in .308 anyway. The commonality turned out to be a bigger deal than I thought it would be now that I have .40, .45, .223, .303, .308, 7.62x54R and 12 gauge guns, because I find myself wanting to trim that down via trades and conversions to .45, .223, .308, and 12 gauge (ok, the Mosin will get to stay with a box or two of its 54R ordnance, but I'm talking keeping a large stock here) If I had guns in 7.62x39 and .223 right now, one of them would get cut, but that's just me.

If commonality wasn't an issue, 7.62x39 booms louder and makes bigger holes, and I'd probably want my fun gun in that. I don't think you'd go wrong either way (unless you picked 5.45x39... although I'd be interested if anybody has good things to say about that cartridge).
 
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Sub-MOA accuracy and long range performance in military guns are greatly overvalued by people who haven't been there. It's rare to engage an enemy with small arms beyond a 200-300 yards, and not all that commom beyond 100 yards. It's also the rare exception for an infantryman to be able to make use of the potential accuracy of even a a rifle that any of us would consider a piece of crap. What's important is the ability to hit a torso-size target at a couple hundred yards with sufficient power to put the guy down before he can do something nasty in return. The M40A1's, M24's and the like are for specialists. The M4 seems to me to be a lot more realistic military weapon than the M16. Of course it's been ages since I've used either an M16 or an M14 where the rubber meets the road (which isn't on a range, even at Camp Perry).

Ken
 
crakowski...i own a saiga in 7.62x39, .223, .308, 20 gauge, and 12 gauge...all brand new still in the box...when i heard that the saiga line was no longer going to be imported i ran out and bought 1 of each along with 5 magazines for each...there are highcaps that you can buy from russia...but i theyre expensive and i heard that if they arent always gauranteed to make it through customs and if theyre confiscated you lose out on your money and hope that THE MAN doesnt come knockin to find out why youd ever want a 30 round mag for a gun that comes with a 10 round mag...i love my vepr...i bought the .308 sporting model with a 23" barrel and thumbhole stock in an attempt to imitate a dragunov...they dont even make the model anymore which is sad because its a sweet shooting/looking gun...robinson armaments website says that all of the veprs are out of stock...did the ATF put a ban on those too???? i guess ill have to look for a WASR then...ive seen the preban polytech and norincos around but for the money...it just doesnt seem worth it to me

also...there are a few companies that do custom work on all saiga rifles...they convert both the shotguns and sporting rifle models into AK variants by moving the trigger assembly forward, adding US pistol grip and buttstock, and shortening the barrels to 16 inches on the longer guns...then refinishing the metal...from what ive seen/heard there are a few companies that have done alot of nice work...but i dont think i could have it done to any of my guns seeing as i live in MA
 
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I've used and abused my Romanian SAR1 pretty bad and its never failed me. Maybe a few extraction problems in the thousands of rounds i've fed it, but thats about it. A friend of mine has a WASR10 and has never had a problem with it either. My Romanian is enough for me for now since AKs aren't top priority on my list and are usually pretty pricey for a good one. You can spend anywhere from $300 to $1500 depending on what you buy when it comes to an AK47. If you want top of the line, check Zero Hour Arms in Easton. Plenty of nice, but pricey AK rifles there. If you want cheap stamped sheet metal receiver fun like a WASR10, get one from Four Seasons.
Do some reading on sites like ak47world.com or the sites mentioned in earlier posts, and here on the forums, then decide what you want to buy. Warning though... if you do get bit by the AK47 bug, beware! You may have an allergic reaction to it and be forced to fall in love with the AK47 design and spend lots of money.[laugh] I myself (and my wallet) am thankful I have a high tolerance.[smile]

Oh.. you mentioned availabilty. Right now if I was buying an AK, i'd get one in 223 after seeing the fiasco with the US sending Russian made 7.62x39 ammo to the desert. At least 223 is every where and made by just about everyone.
 
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milsurps...i know what you mean...i got bit by the sks bug a year or two back...now i own 3 yugos, 2 russians, 1 regular chinese, 1 chinese paratrooper, and 1 albanian...i was thinking the same with .223 ammo...if the 7.62x39 becomes available again then ill sell and get one in x39...but for now i have enough 7.62 to feed all my sks for at least a year...if i got an AK itd prob last only a few months
 
blood hound said:
milsurps...i know what you mean...i got bit by the sks bug a year or two back...now i own 3 yugos, 2 russians, 1 regular chinese, 1 chinese paratrooper, and 1 albanian...i was thinking the same with .223 ammo...if the 7.62x39 becomes available again then ill sell and get one in x39...but for now i have enough 7.62 to feed all my sks for at least a year...if i got an AK itd prob last only a few months

If you're like me and bump fire your AK now and then for the cheap full auto feel / thrill, the ammo will l[laugh] ast you a few weeks.
 
blood hound said:
crakowski...i own a saiga in 7.62x39, .223, .308, 20 gauge, and 12 gauge...all brand new still in the box...when i heard that the saiga line was no longer going to be imported i ran out and bought 1 of each along with 5 magazines for each...there are highcaps that you can buy from russia...but i theyre expensive and i heard that if they arent always gauranteed to make it through customs and if theyre confiscated you lose out on your money and hope that THE MAN doesnt come knockin to find out why youd ever want a 30 round mag for a gun that comes with a 10 round mag...i love my vepr...i bought the .308 sporting model with a 23" barrel and thumbhole stock in an attempt to imitate a dragunov...they dont even make the model anymore which is sad because its a sweet shooting/looking gun...robinson armaments website says that all of the veprs are out of stock...did the ATF put a ban on those too???? i guess ill have to look for a WASR then...ive seen the preban polytech and norincos around but for the money...it just doesnt seem worth it to me

also...there are a few companies that do custom work on all saiga rifles...they convert both the shotguns and sporting rifle models into AK variants by moving the trigger assembly forward, adding US pistol grip and buttstock, and shortening the barrels to 16 inches on the longer guns...then refinishing the metal...from what ive seen/heard there are a few companies that have done alot of nice work...but i dont think i could have it done to any of my guns seeing as i live in MA

Boy, am I jealous of that Saiga collection. And doubly so of your 23" VEPR .308. That's exactly what I was looking for for my brother but all we could find was a 20" version. Robinson said there was no and never was a 23" one. Feh, I knew I was right. The ATF didn't ban the VEPRs, it's just that Robinson and the Russians don't really have their act together in terms of a steady stream of them. Apparently more are coming in July but it seems to be one of those slippery deadlines. There used to be a forum on the Robinson site (gone now) and all it was was a ton of people bitching about there being no veprs, no mags, no nothing because Robinson was too busy working on some other system (XCR?) and trying to sell it to the USGov.

I think you'd be fine having the conversion work done to your MA saigas as long as you ended up with only one AWB feature (the pistol grip). That'd be no different than any other sar or wasr or whatever.
 
crakowski said:
...... Briefly thought about getting a 4-8x42 variable one but I read that you have to pick a magnification and stick to it or your zero changes, so decided to keep it simple.

.....
Though finding mags is going to be hell (He's only got one 10 and one 5).

Very nice looking gun!

Re: Changing zero:
These scopes have bullet drop compensation built in (for the 7.64x54mm).
Darn near drove me nuts when I tried to sight mine (3-9 power) in!
I didn't realize that it had BDC and was mystified when the point of impact changed every time I changed the power.
The original intent was that you'd use the rangefinder reitcle and the power would increase for a better sight picture as the range increased.
Once someone explains it, in English, its quite (sorta) logical...
It's not a variable power scope, its a variable range scope.[thinking]

Re: mags:
I've been lead to believe that the mags for the .308 Galil rifle can be easily modified to work with the .308 VEPR. I've been meaning to pick up a couple ($30 each), and give it a try. The VEPR plastic mags just make me nervous.
 
I put a TruGlo red dot on my SAR1 with the side clamp mount. It works for tactical style shooting and where ever the dot goes, the bullet follows.[smile] Only problem is with this style of rifle, any optics sit high, making a good comfortable cheek weld nearly impossible. I'm much more comfortable shooting staring right down the sights with my cheek against the stock. Using the red dot I have to kind of chin it just to see, but accuracy does pick up with slow fire.
 
I don't think right now there is no better buy than a Brand New Russian Izhmash Saiga Sporter rifle. With its affordable price tag its russian quality is unmatched. I think its the hottest buy on the planet right now too. The 308 saiga has awesome accuracy too, it ranges between 200yds, to 400yds and even out to 500yds too. It appears the little 16" barreled 308 saiga can do it all. If you like AK's you should have a few saiga's too.

I like my saiga's in there orginal condition too. I own both siaga's in 308win and in .223rem too. I purchased my saiga's to hunt with.

There is a site for doing your own change overs too if you would like to convert your saiga to a pistol grip too.
go to; www.cross-conn.com/saiga_conversion/index.htm

Were talking about converting the saiga sporter not the saiga model 100 its a different receiver(safety setup).
 
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