What's comparable to Mini-Mags?

[T-Unit]

I've done chronograph testing with Aguila and CCI standard velocity and 40gr Mini Mags I was surprised to see the Aguila had the lowest standard deviation and extreme spread. Velocity with the Aguila SV was higher than the CCI's actually.

Before that, I had looked at Aguila .22 LR as a good alternative to CCI, but it seems to be superior actually. The only advantage that CCI has over Aguila is the hyper velocity ammo, Velocitor and Stinger, is more available and uses a better bullet.

 

[mac1911]

I've done chronograph testing with Aguila and CCI standard velocity and 40gr Mini Mags I was surprised to see the Aguila had the lowest standard deviation and extreme spread. Velocity with the Aguila SV was higher than the CCI's actually.

Before that, I had looked at Aguila .22 LR as a good alternative to CCI, but it seems to be superior actually. The only advantage that CCI has over Aguila is the hyper velocity ammo, Velocitor and Stinger, is more available and uses a better bullet.

they all have their better lots from time to time.

 

[strangenh]

I don't know if there was a short stroke (as in if the bolt ever moved) and re seated. But it was always closed when happened.

I can cycle by hand. But the extractor just rides over the rim.

So. Replace the extractor. Imagine a Mini up against a truck, suddenly propelled by a bomb. Now imagine the same scenario, except the mini is welded to the truck.

 

[grey]

I've done chronograph testing with Aguila and CCI standard velocity and 40gr Mini Mags I was surprised to see the Aguila had the lowest standard deviation and extreme spread. Velocity with the Aguila SV was higher than the CCI's actually.

Before that, I had looked at Aguila .22 LR as a good alternative to CCI, but it seems to be superior actually. The only advantage that CCI has over Aguila is the hyper velocity ammo, Velocitor and Stinger, is more available and uses a better bullet.

I was luke warm when Aguila ramped up their .22 production last ammo shortage. Ive been nothing but happy since I've discovered a solid cci alternative. I always considered them about equal sans chronograph but that's good onfo

 

[T-Unit]

they all have their better lots from time to time.

That may have been what happened that or the powder that Aguila used works better in a pistol barrel as the only stuff I've chronographed .22 in has been handguns. Kind of wish I had kept that Marlin a little longer for velocity testing, but too late now.

One thing I learned is that Aguila is no worse than CCI and that hyper velocity .22 and .22 Magnum is horrible in terms of consistent velocities. Talking extreme spreads 33% higher with the hyper velocity .22 LR and 200 fps spreads in .22 Mag from a handgun is apparently common.

 

[chris_1001]

So. Replace the extractor. Imagine a Mini up against a truck, suddenly propelled by a bomb. Now imagine the same scenario, except the mini is welded to the truck.

It’s not the extractor (but could help on the lesser stuck ones), it’s the tight chamber and crappy rounds.

I have to pick a round out with a knife or use a cleaning rod on some brands vs others that cycle fine.

 

[strangenh]

It’s not the extractor (but could help on the lesser stuck ones), it’s the tight chamber and crappy rounds.

I have to pick a round out with a knife or use a cleaning rod on some brands vs others that cycle fine.

You keep saying that like you tested it against some kind of control group. Every 10/22 FTE thread sounds like this.

ETA: Maybe I'm not being blunt enough: Your "problem" may be the tight chamber, but the solution is a change in extractor geometry, as it has been for every person with a 10/22 match chamber before you. This just isn't a new issue.

(Just to be clear, the scenario you want is the Mini welded to the truck.)

 

[chris_1001]

You keep saying that like you tested it against some kind of control group. Every 10/22 FTE thread sounds like this.

(Just to be clear, the scenario you want is the Mini welded to the truck.)

Same gun, same day, same extractor. However... Different ammo

Winchester 555 pack bulk gets stuck 60+% of the time, Federal (525?) bulk 0% failure to extract rate.

When I did the Appleseed, I got 3-4 stuck SK match rounds out of ~450.

As this was an ammo thread, my initial postings were about how my custom shop gun is super finicky ammo wise.

My other older late 80’s vintage 10/22 eats most everything (and the round count has to have been shot WELL over 60k and has the original unaltered bolt and extractor.

Not picking a fight, just clarifying.

 

[strangenh]

No, I get it. I'm just telling you your scenario is very consistent with the solution. And you have a spare aftermarket extractor to try!

The #1 solution to FTE "finicky" with 10/22s is extractor replacement, with an aggressive-shape extractor. The factory geometry is pretty much "optimal circumstances" - not to mention very subject to slight aberrations in the cuts/drills on the bolt. Rimfire Central is rife with this discussion. Other than the barrel, the big parts everyone replaces first on the cheap are the hammer (with a VQ one, and just the hammer/spring)... and the extractor. I've even seen this behavior on a Marlin 60. Not gonna get into that discussion.

 

[chris_1001]

No, I get it. I'm just telling you your scenario is very consistent with the solution. And you have a spare aftermarket extractor to try!

The #1 solution to FTE "finicky" with 10/22s is extractor replacement, with an aggressive-shape extractor. The factory geometry is pretty much "optimal circumstances" - not to mention very subject to slight aberrations in the cuts/drills on the bolt. Rimfire Central is rife with this discussion. Other than the barrel, the big parts everyone replaces first on the cheap are the hammer (with a VQ one, and just the hammer/spring)... and the extractor. I've even seen this behavior on a Marlin 60. Not gonna get into that discussion.

Normally I would simply agree and swap the extractor. Hence why I have a spare in inventory. And why there are so many companies making upgrades ones. It’s a well known weak point.

But if I can’t pry out a stuck shell with a knife and have to use a cleaning rod a few times to get it out, then there is the possibility that the extractor won’t help on the really stuck rounds or maybe rip the rim apart.

I will take it apart soon and compare the two extractors and try it, but it might be a while for an actual test.


I’m also on RC. Don’t post much there, but had some issues with some KIDD stuff (the bolt specifically). Posted it here also

 

[mac1911]

Same gun, same day, same extractor. However... Different ammo

Winchester 555 pack bulk gets stuck 60+% of the time, Federal (525?) bulk 0% failure to extract rate.

When I did the Appleseed, I got 3-4 stuck SK match rounds out of ~450.

As this was an ammo thread, my initial postings were about how my custom shop gun is super finicky ammo wise.

My other older late 80’s vintage 10/22 eats most everything (and the round count has to have been shot WELL over 60k and has the original unaltered bolt and extractor.

Not picking a fight, just clarifying.

I cant understand why you run bulk crap in a match chamber, reading rugers little tid bit , sounds more like they used more of a "loose" match chamber.
Anyhow SK match is good stuff but a bit on the lower side of the match stuff.
How does that SK group for you.
Im running SK standard plus in my Kidd barreled 10/22 , its been flawless and can shoot moa when I can , I have 500 rounds of that SK flatnose match to try when I run out of the standard.
Im usually shooting at a 3moa ten ring so I dont need crazy match ammo.

 

[mac1911]

That may have been what happened that or the powder that Aguila used works better in a pistol barrel as the only stuff I've chronographed .22 in has been handguns. Kind of wish I had kept that Marlin a little longer for velocity testing, but too late now.

One thing I learned is that Aguila is no worse than CCI and that hyper velocity .22 and .22 Magnum is horrible in terms of consistent velocities. Talking extreme spreads 33% higher with the hyper velocity .22 LR and 200 fps spreads in .22 Mag from a handgun is apparently common.

Remember velocity from the factories are tested in 24" barrels.
the accuracy test barrels are 24" also and usually are a big heavy bench unit. Think Mann Accuracy device type of set up.
I have posted before of a response from CCI that CCI SV is 2 MOA ammo. Meaning as long as the test batch from a lot has a average of 2 MOA than its good to go.
Can CCI SV shoot better, sure can. The particular lot of CCI I have passed KIDD barrels 1/2" group standard, I run SK standard plus in my KiDD barrel 1 0/22 that is just the most consistent batch of ammo I have in bulk at the moment for that rifle.
Wolf Match Extra does well also I just dont have a lot of that. Eley Tennex does extremely well BUT its .20¢ round . Little to much for fun shooting at 200 yards at a 3 moa 10 ring.

I,have not had the problems I see with others with any 10/22 I have owned over the past 35 years.
I have bought several with "known" problems only to find crud where it dont belong or a extractor that beat to shit.
Almost every 1 0/22 I have touched and looked at over the years with "poblems" where wet with lube. That wet lube only adds to problems as it will grab the crud/fouling from the fired cases and suck into every crevice where you dont want it.

From my first 10/22 I remember the instructions to only apply enough oil to prevent rust.

 

[mac1911]

Normally I would simply agree and swap the extractor. Hence why I have a spare in inventory. And why there are so many companies making upgrades ones. It’s a well known weak point.

But if I can’t pry out a stuck shell with a knife and have to use a cleaning rod a few times to get it out, then there is the possibility that the extractor won’t help on the really stuck rounds or maybe rip the rim apart.

I will take it apart soon and compare the two extractors and try it, but it might be a while for an actual test.


I’m also on RC. Don’t post much there, but had some issues with some KIDD stuff (the bolt specifically). Posted it here also

Often over looked is the difference in 22lr bullet profiles. After shooting several hundred rounds of X bullet Y can have a different profile and hang up on the fouling ring left be the last ammo...
This can increase chamber pressure.
Take some Dykem or even a magic marker and cover a cartridge carefully chamber it and see if you can spot any contact on case or bullet.

 

[T-Unit]

I cant understand why you run bulk crap in a match chamber, reading rugers little tid bit , sounds more like they used more of a "loose" match chamber.
Anyhow SK match is good stuff but a bit on the lower side of the match stuff.
How does that SK group for you.
Im running SK standard plus in my Kidd barreled 10/22 , its been flawless and can shoot moa when I can , I have 500 rounds of that SK flatnose match to try when I run out of the standard.
Im usually shooting at a 3moa ten ring so I dont need crazy match ammo.

Bulk .22 can be decently accurate ammo, but that doesn't mean it will feed, extract, or eject well in a semi auto or have better, more consistent priming or powder charges. A lot of people have issues with Winchester bulk white box .22 and I've had issues with Super-X in semi auto .22s, but manual action? No problems.

I wouldn't have any issue shooting bulk .22 in a Ruger Precision Rimfire.

Remember velocity from the factories are tested in 24" barrels.
the accuracy test barrels are 24" also and usually are a big heavy bench unit. Think Mann Accuracy device type of set up.
I have posted before of a response from CCI that CCI SV is 2 MOA ammo. Meaning as long as the test batch from a lot has a average of 2 MOA than its good to go.
Can CCI SV shoot better, sure can. The particular lot of CCI I have passed KIDD barrels 1/2" group standard, I run SK standard plus in my KiDD barrel 1 0/22 that is just the most consistent batch of ammo I have in bulk at the moment for that rifle.
Wolf Match Extra does well also I just dont have a lot of that. Eley Tennex does extremely well BUT its .20¢ round . Little to much for fun shooting at 200 yards at a 3 moa 10 ring.

I,have not had the problems I see with others with any 10/22 I have owned over the past 35 years.
I have bought several with "known" problems only to find crud where it dont belong or a extractor that beat to shit.
Almost every 1 0/22 I have touched and looked at over the years with "poblems" where wet with lube. That wet lube only adds to problems as it will grab the crud/fouling from the fired cases and suck into every crevice where you dont want it.

From my first 10/22 I remember the instructions to only apply enough oil to prevent rust.

I'm of the opinion that 24" barrels for .22 are not a paradigm of accuracy, so if a 24" barrel is able to get 2 MOA, an 18 or a 10 inch barrel can probably do a lot better. I know my Charger is capable of sub-MOA out to 50 yards.

The only issues I have with that 10/22 are when I use the 15 and 25 rd mags.

 

[mac1911]

Bulk .22 can be decently accurate ammo, but that doesn't mean it will feed, extract, or eject well in a semi auto or have better, more consistent priming or powder charges. A lot of people have issues with Winchester bulk white box .22 and I've had issues with Super-X in semi auto .22s, but manual action? No problems.

I wouldn't have any issue shooting bulk .22 in a Ruger Precision Rimfire.


I'm of the opinion that 24" barrels for .22 are not a paradigm of accuracy, so if a 24" barrel is able to get 2 MOA, an 18 or a 10 inch barrel can probably do a lot better. I know my Charger is capable of sub-MOA out to 50 yards.

The only issues I have with that 10/22 are when I use the 15 and 25 rd mags.

If your getting consistent - .50" groups with any of that ammo and a charger your are doing extremely well. Like bleiker rifle and 20 cent ammo good.

 

[mac1911]

Bulk .22 can be decently accurate ammo, but that doesn't mean it will feed, extract, or eject well in a semi auto or have better, more consistent priming or powder charges. A lot of people have issues with Winchester bulk white box .22 and I've had issues with Super-X in semi auto .22s, but manual action? No problems.

I wouldn't have any issue shooting bulk .22 in a Ruger Precision Rimfire.


I'm of the opinion that 24" barrels for .22 are not a paradigm of accuracy, so if a 24" barrel is able to get 2 MOA, an 18 or a 10 inch barrel can probably do a lot better. I know my Charger is capable of sub-MOA out to 50 yards.

The only issues I have with that 10/22 are when I use the 15 and 25 rd mags.

the 24" barrel is for the most part a "standard"
Accuracy testing devices are generally 24" and same "industry standard " stuff.
Back when you where having problems with your Marlin the emails I got from both marlin and CCI on some of thier standards was pretty interesting.

 

[T-Unit]

the 24" barrel is for the most part a "standard"
Accuracy testing devices are generally 24" and same "industry standard " stuff.
Back when you where having problems with your Marlin the emails I got from both marlin and CCI on some of thier standards was pretty interesting.

What's standard is standard and there's no real reason for it to be, like Hornady basing their handgun ammo velocity off an 8 inch barrel knowing full well most people are using 3 and 4 inch barrels.

Honestly, velocity is irrelevant to me in terms of barrel length for a .22 that's meant for target shooting, it's accuracy and all my experience has been that the longer the barrel, the larger the groups.

I mean, maybe an Anschutz can shoot better than my Charger, but how much better? 1/4 MOA better? For $1000 more I don't see that as worth it, not unless I was using the gun for matches once or twice a month... which I'm not.

 

[mac1911]

What's standard is standard and there's no real reason for it to be, like Hornady basing their handgun ammo velocity off an 8 inch barrel knowing full well most people are using 3 and 4 inch barrels.

Honestly, velocity is irrelevant to me in terms of barrel length for a .22 that's meant for target shooting, it's accuracy and all my experience has been that the longer the barrel, the larger the groups.

I mean, maybe an Anschutz can shoot better than my Charger, but how much better? 1/4 MOA better? For $1000 more I don't see that as worth it, not unless I was using the gun for matches once or twice a month... which I'm not.

The ammunition manufactures have industry standards, thats just how it is.
Barrel length gets tricky,
Several factors come into play on barrel length.
When shooting Iron sights the longer the sight radius the more potential the accuracy. So the barrels tend to be longer for shooting accurately with iron/match sights.
Barrel length dictates combustion of the powder charge.
Slow powders in short barrels is not good
Fast powders in barrels that are to long is not good.
Some cartridges to get the velocity needed to take advantage of the BC need that velocity.
Now with scopes barrel length only needs to be long enough to get the nest complete combustion out of your cartridge.
Its all fun and the game is to find what works for you.

theres alot of personal likes and dislike on every aspect of shooting
I personally cant see spending $500 plus on 10/22 competition model and putting bulk shit ammo through it.
CCI SV and Aguila extra is about as cheap as I will go in my 10/22 with Kidd barrel. I run the bulk shit in my $100 Ted Williams and other “department store” branded cheap 22s.

 

[mac1911]

What's standard is standard and there's no real reason for it to be, like Hornady basing their handgun ammo velocity off an 8 inch barrel knowing full well most people are using 3 and 4 inch barrels.

Honestly, velocity is irrelevant to me in terms of barrel length for a .22 that's meant for target shooting, it's accuracy and all my experience has been that the longer the barrel, the larger the groups.

I mean, maybe an Anschutz can shoot better than my Charger, but how much better? 1/4 MOA better? For $1000 more I don't see that as worth it, not unless I was using the gun for matches once or twice a month... which I'm not.

Lets be clear , your charger even in a match chsmpion hands is not going to win him a match against their own rifle.

 

[T-Unit]

Lets be clear , your charger even in a match chsmpion hands is not going to win him a match against their own rifle.

I don't expect it to, but to say that in order to get sub MOA with what amount to ammo that isn't even match grade I'd need to buy a rifle that cost double or triple is not true in my case.

I do wish more people would buy the Charger (non-takedown) and put a scope on it and not the dinky red dot and post their accuracy results so I can see if there's something to the Charger or if it's just mine was blessed by the spirit of Bill Ruger himself before it left the factory.

 

[T-Unit]

The ammunition manufactures have industry standards, thats just how it is.
Barrel length gets tricky,
Several factors come into play on barrel length.
When shooting Iron sights the longer the sight radius the more potential the accuracy. So the barrels tend to be longer for shooting accurately with iron/match sights.
Barrel length dictates combustion of the powder charge.
Slow powders in short barrels is not good
Fast powders in barrels that are to long is not good.
Some cartridges to get the velocity needed to take advantage of the BC need that velocity.
Now with scopes barrel length only needs to be long enough to get the nest complete combustion out of your cartridge.
Its all fun and the game is to find what works for you.

theres alot of personal likes and dislike on every aspect of shooting
I personally cant see spending $500 plus on 10/22 competition model and putting bulk shit ammo through it.
CCI SV and Aguila extra is about as cheap as I will go in my 10/22 with Kidd barrel. I run the bulk shit in my $100 Ted Williams and other “department store” branded cheap 22s.

I can understand the iron sight radius with a long barrel for a specific match criteria, but most target shooting is likely to be using a scope. The main reason I put a scope on the Marlin I had was the front sight was so far away on that barrel I had a lot of difficulty seeing it clearly.

The deal with bulk ammo is I think all or a lot of it uses hollow points and they do expand when shot in a rifle. For small game hunters the results of using a hollow point vs rnd nose is clear, so if the ammo feeds, functions, and shoots well, and is cheap, why not shoot it? When it's nothing but a problem (like Winchester usually is in a semi auto) there's no point in shooting it and that goes for either a $50 or a $500 gun.

 

[mac1911]

I can understand the iron sight radius with a long barrel for a specific match criteria, but most target shooting is likely to be using a scope. The main reason I put a scope on the Marlin I had was the front sight was so far away on that barrel I had a lot of difficulty seeing it clearly.

The deal with bulk ammo is I think all or a lot of it uses hollow points and they do expand when shot in a rifle. For small game hunters the results of using a hollow point vs rnd nose is clear, so if the ammo feeds, functions, and shoots well, and is cheap, why not shoot it? When it's nothing but a problem (like Winchester usually is in a semi auto) there's no point in shooting it and that goes for either a $50 or a $500 gun.

Yup vision can be a pita, there are things to do.
Proper target sights help vs the cheap run of the mil notch and post

Not a 22 but heres what “metallic” sights look like on a NRA Match rifle, barrel length restriction bring out the bloop tubes (what looks like a silencer) to increase sight radius

 

[Qwikdraw45]

If you buy the LCPII in .22LR, you DON'T WANT high velocity ammo. You want standard. Bought a used one, and the seller gave me two boxes of CCI Standard Velocity (rated at 1070fps). He said that the hi-vel stuff was not reliable. 50 rounds of S/V - not a hiccup (sic). Tried the mini-mags just to save the S/V for my wife. Jammed every few rounds. The H/V rounds cycle the slide too fast, causing it to lock back prematurely. You can usually release the slide and continue firing - for another round or two. I've managed to find another 100rds of CCI standard velocity, which I save for that. I found 3 boxes of Aguila "Target" which is rated at 1080fps. I have not tried it yet, but assume that it will work since it is listed as being within 10fps of the CCI Standard.

As for other guns, I've found a lot don't like the Winchester "truncated cone" design bullet. As always, YMMV.

 

[MaxStravinsky]

If you buy the LCPII in .22LR, you DON'T WANT high velocity ammo. You want standard. Bought a used one, and the seller gave me two boxes of CCI Standard Velocity (rated at 1070fps). He said that the hi-vel stuff was not reliable. 50 rounds of S/V - not a hiccup (sic). Tried the mini-mags just to save the S/V for my wife. Jammed every few rounds. The H/V rounds cycle the slide too fast, causing it to lock back prematurely. You can usually release the slide and continue firing - for another round or two. I've managed to find another 100rds of CCI standard velocity, which I save for that. I found 3 boxes of Aguila "Target" which is rated at 1080fps. I have not tried it yet, but assume that it will work since it is listed as being within 10fps of the CCI Standard.

As for other guns, I've found a lot don't like the Winchester "truncated cone" design bullet. As always, YMMV.

Thanks for the heads up - I did just buy one today. As soon as I can acquire some 22's I'll do my own testing.

 

[MaxStravinsky]

If you buy the LCPII in .22LR, you DON'T WANT high velocity ammo. You want standard. Bought a used one, and the seller gave me two boxes of CCI Standard Velocity (rated at 1070fps). He said that the hi-vel stuff was not reliable. 50 rounds of S/V - not a hiccup (sic). Tried the mini-mags just to save the S/V for my wife. Jammed every few rounds. The H/V rounds cycle the slide too fast, causing it to lock back prematurely. You can usually release the slide and continue firing - for another round or two. I've managed to find another 100rds of CCI standard velocity, which I save for that. I found 3 boxes of Aguila "Target" which is rated at 1080fps. I have not tried it yet, but assume that it will work since it is listed as being within 10fps of the CCI Standard.

As for other guns, I've found a lot don't like the Winchester "truncated cone" design bullet. As always, YMMV.

Question: the problem described above, with the slide being cycled too fast and locking back - would replacing the recoil spring with a stiffer spring solve that problem?
I ask because I noticed that Ruger sells a stiffer recoil spring for the LCP II 22lr on its Accessories page.

 

[T-Unit]

Question: the problem described above, with the slide being cycled too fast and locking back - would replacing the recoil spring with a stiffer spring solve that problem?
I ask because I noticed that Ruger sells a stiffer recoil spring for the LCP II 22lr on its Accessories page.

It's worth trying. An LCP in .22 that can't run anything but standard is pretty fugging useless.

 

[mikelawtown]

^^ That. Cheap fix/test.

I did this exact same thing in my 10/22 and I still had issues so I tried the Kidd extractor and has been 100%

 

[MaxStravinsky]

Found a bunch of youtube videos reviewing the lcp 22, it was almost equally split between those who had problems, and those who said their guns shot everything. Sometimes it was a breaking in issue, one big guy's left hand was slightly rubbing up against the slide. When he shot one handed (right hand) it was perfect. Ahhhh the fun begins....

 

[mac1911]

It's worth trying. An LCP in .22 that can't run anything but standard is pretty fugging useless.

Its a actually sad how many 22s made today have function issues with Plain old 22lr.
Especially when years ago they made semi auto 22s that could cycle on 22 short , long and , long rifle with out issue . You could load them randomly in the tube or mag and just start shooting.
Pure marketing genius that some how we need all this special 22 ammo for shit to work.
The AR 22lr really got me laughing

 

[bmac10]

I don’t know if you can be too picky now. I’ve had good luck with Aguila - slightly dirtier (and smellier) than mini mags lol

I love the citrus smell of Aguila.