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The Mexican Gun Canard

Garys

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Some debunking at Say Uncle. Haven't read it all yet, but at one point the ATF says that only hundreds, but not thousands of guns are coming from the US. Arizona AG says no new gun laws, but money transfer laws need to be tightened. Feinstein disappointed that no one on the panel wants more gun control laws because the ones in place now are being used effectively.

So the people on the ground aren’t calling for changes in our country’s gun laws in order to deal with the Mexican problem, apparently much to the dismay of Senators Feinstein and Durbin. We also now know those on the ground don’t believe that military grade weapons are coming from the United States, and certainly not from US gun shows. So one wonders whether the media in the United States are going to continue to blame the US for the proliferation of miltiary weapons into Mexico. I suspect that the media will ignore this testimony, but let’s hope that Congress won’t.
 
Some debunking at Say Uncle. Haven't read it all yet, but at one point the ATF says that only hundreds, but not thousands of guns are coming from the US. Arizona AG says no new gun laws, but money transfer laws need to be tightened. Feinstein disappointed that no one on the panel wants more gun control laws because the ones in place now are being used effectively.
I said this at the time - the theory of gun running from north to south makes no sense whatsoever...

Ignoring the fact that many of the drug lords seem to be arming themselves by stealing from the Mexican Army/police, the economics of buying guns legally up here or illegally just don't work out when you can get them far cheaper elsewhere in the world...
 
To believe the crap being spewed by Holder, Obama, et al, you'd have to believe that an organization with revenues in the billions (obtained through the buying and selling of illegal contraband) would have their supply of weaponry affected by banning the US civilian possession of guns with such exotic features as bayonet lugs, flash hiders, barrel shrouds, pistol grips, collapsible stocks, and detachable magazines.

That, and you'd have to be one of the biggest bleepin' morons walking the face of the earth.
 
That, and you'd have to be one of the biggest bleepin' morons walking the face of the earth.

That Bruce is exactly what they think we are. They also count on their willing lackeys in the Lame Stream Media and the overall ignorance of the American public when it comes to firearms.

It's worked in the past, but I think that the new media has changed the rules.
 
We "must do something".

Gun control debate hangs over U.S.-Mexico violence

By SUZANNE GAMBOA, Associated Press Writer Suzanne Gamboa, Associated Press Writer Tue Mar 24, 3:15 am ET

WASHINGTON – Members of Congress may be alarmed by the surge in Mexican drug violence and its potential to spill across the border, but they grow silent when the talk turns to gun control as a solution.

With related kidnappings and killings occurring in the U.S., the Obama administration is likely to shift dozens of enforcement agents and millions of dollars to the fight against Mexican drug cartels.

Yet when Attorney General Eric Holder suggested reinstituting a U.S. ban on the sale of certain semiautomatic weapons, many lawmakers balked. The 1994 ban expired after 10 years.

"The Second Amendment Task Force opposes the discussed ban and will fight any attempts that infringe on our Second Amendment rights," said Rep. Paul Broun, R-Ga., a chairman of the group. Six Democrats and six Republicans co-signed his statement.

Mexico has long tried to get the United States to curtail the number of guns — many purchased legally — that wind up south of the border, where gun laws are much stricter. The State Department says firearms obtained in the U.S. account for an estimated 95 percent of Mexico's drug-related killings.

"If President (Felipe) Calderon's policies to roll back organized crime are to be successful, we need to defang the power of the drug syndicates to inflict damage upon our state, local and police forces," Arturo Sarukhan, the Mexican ambassador to the United States, said in January. "The best way we can do that is for a real ratcheting up of the United States' capabilities of shutting down the flow of weapons."

That may prove tough to do.

After opposition from the National Rifle Association, 22 Democrats joined Republicans in a Senate vote this month to negate the District of Columbia's tough gun registration requirements and overturn its ban on rapid-fire semiautomatic weapons. More than 80 House Democrats backed a similar measure last year.

The gun lobby has raised more than $20 million for political candidates since the 1990 election cycle, with about 85 percent going to Republicans. That ranks 68th among about 80 industry groups tracked by the OpenSecrets.org campaign finance watchdog.

When border violence comes up in hearings, lawmakers say they don't see a need for new gun laws.

"I don't think the solution to Mexico's problems is to limit Second Amendment gun rights in this country," said Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, chairman of the Senate GOP's election committee. "What we can do is help our Mexican friends enforce their own laws."

Republican Rep. Jeff Flake said he believed a recent hearing on Mexico drug violence was actually a discussion of gun control.

"Instead of punishing law-abiding Americans with stricter controls, we must continue to punish those who break the law," said Flake, of Arizona, where 700 cartel-related kidnappings have occurred over two years.

For his part, Obama has signaled a willingness to tighten restrictions on guns, calling the flow of drug money and guns "a two-way situation." Yet 65 Democrats said in a letter to Holder that they would oppose any attempt by the administration to revive a ban on military-style weapons.

Congress did provide $45 million this year for Project Gunrunner, a federal program aimed at curbing the flow of guns. Rep. Ciro Rodriguez, a Texas Democrat on the Appropriations Committee, said he will seek another $30 million over two years for the program and $30 million more to fund efforts by Immigration and Customs Enforcement to crack down on gun trafficking.

Tom Diaz, an analyst at the Violence Policy Center, a gun control group, said cartels use military-style weapons such as the Armalite AR-50, a .50-caliber sniper rifle.

He brought one to a recent congressional hearing — with the help of two police officers — and said he found the weapon on the Internet, bought it for $3,200 from a Maryland "kitchen table" dealer and had it registered in the District of Columbia, all in about six hours.

Semiautomatic rifles used by the cartels are imported legally into the U.S. as "sporting" weapons, a policy that was stopped for years but revived under President George W. Bush. The government could stop importation of those weapons under the 1968 Gun Control Act and thus keep them from winding up in Mexico, Diaz said.

Rep. John Tierney, D-Mass., who chaired a hearing on guns going to Mexico, said he is not seeking widespread gun control but Congress must do something.

"We don't want to get distracted by the gun industry lobby of the NRA trying to talk about (how) every attempt to bring some sanity to the situation is somehow an attempt to get rid of everybody's Second Amendment rights," he said. "That's a red herring."

Sarukhan, the Mexican ambassador, said Mexico simply wants existing U.S. gun laws applied.

"Just on the Arizona and Texas border, there are 12,000 gun shops and countless other gun shows that week in and week out rove around the border area," Sarukhan said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090324/ap_on_go_co/border_violence_guns


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NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this
material is distributed without profit or payment to those who
have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information
for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more
information go to:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
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Not surprising coming from the AP. Typical mix of out of context statements, half truths, and outright lies. So, Diaz used the Internet to locate a gun, legally, bought it, legally, registered, legally, in DC? And?

Oooooooo, let's all be scared.
 
Mexico has long tried to get the United States to curtail the number of guns — many purchased legally — that wind up south of the border, where gun laws are much stricter.

How's that stricter gun control working out for you down there then??



"If President (Felipe) Calderon's policies to roll back organized crime are to be successful, we need to defang the power of the drug syndicates to inflict damage upon our state, local and police forces," Arturo Sarukhan, the Mexican ambassador to the United States, said in January. "The best way we can do that is for a real ratcheting up of the United States' capabilities of shutting down the flow of weapons."

Make ya a deal.. You guys send back the illegal guns, and we send back the illegal people??

Works for me!!!
 
If any of this guns flowing south bullshit is true, it would mean that the US gun shops are doing well and the Mexicans are killing each other off. What's not to like about that? Jack.
What it would really mean is that pigs are flying and feces smells like roses...

I know it won't happen, but this lie is as big as any those Bush was accused of - it would be nice if people called them on it...

Every expert they asks says "huh? That doesn't make sense, and no, we've only seen a few moving that direction"...

The economics of paying way too much for legal guns up here and selling them to a third-world country are laughable... The only "American guns" they are getting are the ones we sold to the Mexican Army from who they either stole them or purchased them outright through the local corrupt politician...
 
This whole thing is completely absurd.

Mexican drug lords are engaged in violent turf wars in Mexico. The best way to combat this criminal gang activity in another country is by grossly restricting the Second Amendment rights of law abiding American citizens.

Huh????????
 
Sarukhan, the Mexican ambassador, said Mexico simply wants existing U.S. gun laws applied.

I want to say... "Hey a**h***- why is YOUR border control OUR problem?"

I have no doubt some guns are being brought in from the US (sans the military grade stuff, like MGs, rpgs, grenades) but I think politically speaking, Obama and friends are using this as some sort of an excuse to foist more gun control on US citizens and legal immigrants, when it's really not our
problem.

-Mike
 
I don't care if they prove that every gun sold in the U.S. is being shipped to Mexico and used to kill nuns by drug-crazed terrorists. There is no empirical argument that can support government interference with individual freedom.

If anything, it sounds to me like Mexico needs to secure its northern border.
 
What I really can't get my head around is this...

You have a hugely sucessful cash business, based on manufacturing and then exporting stuff.
The manufacture/ cultivation of this is not legal, so obviously, your facility has to be pretty well hidden. Or you have paid govt officials to not see it.

The export is also illegal so, presumably, this happens either with the approval of govt officials or without their knowledge.

So, having these channels established and barrels of cash at your disposal.. You pay people straw men, to go buy guns legally in the us and transport them back to mexico? You leave a paper trail and pay wildly inflated prices for a onesy twosy purchase?

On the other hand, they are probably also doing some sort of heroin trafficking, and/ or they have sources and contacts in burma, afghanistan, etc.. Where they could buy a whole case of basically untraceable full auto AK-47s for about the same cost as one semi auto from the us?

And it comes delivered to their door step with the product that generates the most revenue (the drugs)??

does not make a lot of sense to me.
 
So, having these channels established and barrels of cash at your disposal.. You pay people straw men, to go buy guns legally in the us and transport them back to mexico? You leave a paper trail and pay wildly inflated prices for a onesy twosy purchase?

It's likely cheaper and quicker than it is to import stuff from much further away. They can also run guns on existing people they have smuggling humans and drugs north and south of the border. Some of these coyote types also speak passable english and might even have fake or realistic looking identification. If you have people willing to break the law, there is no usable paper trail. All you end up with is a picture of a hispanic-looking guy on a gun store security camera and a false (or stolen) identity on a 4473 form.

Course one thing in the mix is the mexicans are probably trying to make noise about this to cover up for rampant corruption in the ranks of their police and military forces. I can't imagine an arms room down there has very good accounting. I have no doubt that a large number of the "fancier" guns are likely coming straight out of police and military stores. The drug cartels routinely buy out law enforcement and military types down there, so some guns probably comes with this relationship, too.

-Mike
 
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It's likely cheaper and quicker than it is to import stuff from much further away. They can also run guns on existing people they have smuggling
humans and drugs north and south of the border. Some of these coyote types also speak passable english and might even have fake or realistic
looking identification. If you have people willing to break the law, there is no usable paper trail. All you end up with is a picture of a hispanic-looking guy on a gun store security camera and a false (or stolen) identity on a 4473 form.

Course one thing in the mix is the mexicans are probably trying to make noise about this to cover up for rampant corruption in the ranks of their
police and military forces. I can't imagine an arms room down there has very good accounting. I have no doubt that a large number of the
"fancier" guns are likely coming straight out of police and military stores. The drug cartels routinely buy out law enforcement and military
types down there, so some guns probably comes with this relationship, too.

-Mike

I can see that for the small time gang and for the individual smuggler. Maybe I just hear Drug cartel and think well organized, well funded with a structure. Ihad the impression that most of the issues were with larger groups. That I would equate with more of a mafia or paramilitary army situation.
 
I want to say... "Hey a**h***- why is YOUR border control OUR problem?"

I have no doubt some guns are being brought in from the US (sans the military grade stuff, like MGs, rpgs, grenades) but I think politically speaking, Obama and friends are using this as some sort of an excuse to foist more gun control on US citizens and legal immigrants, when it's really not our
problem.

-Mike
"Never let a good crisis go to waste"
[frown]
 
....On the other hand, they are probably also doing some sort of heroin trafficking, and/ or they have sources and contacts in burma, afghanistan, etc.. Where they could buy a whole case of basically untraceable full auto AK-47s for about the same cost as one semi auto from the us?

And it comes delivered to their door step with the product that generates the most revenue (the drugs)??

does not make a lot of sense to me.

+3! Bang on the nose.

Or could it be the Mexican government tries harder to stop arms smuggling then drug smuggling???? No, that couldn't be! They're our partners in the War on Drugs(TM) aren't they? {insert sarcastic emoticon here}
 
How's that stricter gun control working out for you down there then??

Make ya a deal.. You guys send back the illegal guns, and we send back the illegal people??

Works for me!!!

You are TOO BAD!
 
We could take away 2A rights or we could arm everyone of our citizens on the southern border. Better yet send our military to our border and shoot anyone trying to come into our country illegally, Problem solved. I keep my rights and our border is secured. Maybe send Mexican President a sympathy card.
 
So, if the Mexican gov't makes all these claims, why don't they give the serial numbers to ATF to be traced to substantiate these claims? Jack.

Wow!! Don't you know anything?? All of the RPGs, hand grenades, M2HBs, Sherman tanks and Iowa class battleships purchased at gun shows come with the serial numbers already filed off. It's a value add of the non licensed dealers..
 
Wow!! Don't you know anything?? All of the RPGs, hand grenades, M2HBs, Sherman tanks and Iowa class battleships purchased at gun shows come with the serial numbers already filed off. It's a value add of the non licensed dealers..

you forgot Apache helicopters... I heard they're quite popular in the southern gun shows...
 
you forgot Apache helicopters... I heard they're quite popular in the southern gun shows...

Yeah I saw those once down at an alabama show..

It was parked next to the full auto Dora railway gun.. there was a team of illegals working frantically to file off the serial numbers..
 
Here comes the Clinton-Obama team to declare that the US is supplying guns to Mexico.
http://start.verizon.net/vznisp/portal/NewsChannel.aspx?ArticleID=D9756V680&CatID=TopHeadlines
We all know where this type of thinking is going to lead. [frown]

She offers the same arguements they did in DC, Chicago, etc. Corrupt and ineffective government let's crime expand as they focus on their own paychecks and re-election, then they say the only way they can address crime is to ban guns. When that doesn't work, they claim it's because some other city, state, country didn't ban guns.

While the demand for drugs in the US drives the problem, I question whether the US bears the primary responsibility to take action. Does high demand for milk products justify Chinese manufacturers putting melamine in their milk to satisfy demand? If we have some moral/ethical duty to curtail drug demand, I don't believe our duty is to make sure Mexico's government isn't corrupted by US drug demand. They bear the primary responsibility.

The un-asked question is not how many siezed guns Mexico turns over to the the FBI for trace are from the US, but what fraction of the arms siezed are turned over? You don't hear anything about trace data on grenades and M16s as those are either not submitted for trace or are excluded by FBI.

The whole thing is like that statistic saying most "crime guns" come from a household with guns, suggesting that having a gun in the home promotes crime - well, where else? Most crime involving guns isn't committed by the homeless. Do you think that there are more gun manufacturers in Mexico than the US?

So what % of "crime guns" siezed in the US come from the US? Whatever the number, which I assume to be 90%+, that doesn't justify banning guns in the US, so why would any such statistic from Mexico matter more?

The whole issue, as are many, is much driven by attempt to gain the Latino vote.
 
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She offers the same arguements they did in DC, Chicago, etc. Corrupt and ineffective government let's crime expand as they focus on their own paychecks and re-election, then they say the only way they can address crime is to ban guns. When that doesn't work, they claim it's because some other city, state, country didn't ban guns.

While the demand for drugs in the US drives the problem, I question whether the US bears the primary responsibility to take action. Does high demand for milk products justify Chinese manufacturers putting melamine in their milk to satisfy demand? If we have some moral/ethical duty to curtail drug demand, I don't believe our duty is to make sure Mexico's government isn't corrupted by US drug demand. They bear the primary responsibility.

The un-asked question is not how many siezed guns Mexico turns over to the the FBI for trace are from the US, but what fraction of the arms siezed are turned over? You don't hear anything about trace data on grenades and M16s as those are either not submitted for trace or are excluded by FBI.

The whole thing is like that statistic saying most "crime guns" come from a household with guns, suggesting that having a gun in the home promotes crime - well, where else? Most crime involving guns isn't committed by the homeless. Do you think that there are more gun manufacturers in Mexico than the US?

So what % of "crime guns" siezed in the US come from the US? Whatever the number, which I assume to be 90%+, that doesn't justify banning guns in the US, so why would any such statistic from Mexico matter more?

The whole issue, as are many, is much driven by attempt to gain the Latino vote.

You do have to admit that demand for the product is funneling money to the gangs. Remove the demand and you remove the major source of their financing. Remove that and you remove most of their power (the gun part is just plain BS).

There are a couple of things we can do that we're not:
1) Better enforcement on the border (wihch is funny because these same people shat all over Bush when he proposed the same thing - not that I'm a Bush fan but I love when they scream partisanship while blaming all society's woes on the prior administration).

2) leagalize at least the more popular/least harmful drugs. Pot to start out. Once legitimate sources of purchase are in place the blackmarket demand shrinks to that of blackmarket booze - still there but virtually a nonentity.

But no. They want 'solutions' that fit into their own agenda's framework. There's way too much money involved in drug enforcement - sizeable chunk of the federal budget and all of this very visable violence gives them leverage when they go to congress/the people and ask for more money - and the flow of people across the border are all future democrat voters. Can't shut that off.
 
But no. They want 'solutions' that fit into their own agenda's framework. There's way too much money involved in drug enforcement - sizeable chunk of the federal budget and all of this very visable violence gives them leverage when they go to congress/the people and ask for more money - and the flow of people across the border are all future democrat voters. Can't shut that off.
Legalization is a hard one - it doesn't even require an "evil agenda" like Barry's to make a "reasonable person" think we have to remain tough on drugs...

Cops deal with the worst of humanity at their worst. They also see a pattern every day at work: drugs=violence, violence=drugs..

like any normal human being they associate an observed consequence with the most immediate apparent cause. It is how our brains work - they jump to conclusions based on "logic", but it's a shallow imperfect logic...

People assume that if the all danced around the last time it got dry and then it rained, then it must be that dancing can make rain... An extreme example, but that's how it works...

So, I would not accuse the rank-and-file police officers (even many of the higher-ups who have worked the streets) of being anything other than human in their generally staunch belief that we are only holding on to civilization by a thread and if we legalize drugs, they believe that thread will break...

I believe they are wrong because they are too deep in the forest to see the trees (more specifically the macro-economics of drugs providing the engine that allows so many to participate in the "drug economy"). But I don't fault the police. That's like blaming the bullets or the gun for the murder...
 
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