The Effect of Proposed Gun Control Laws on Collecting

[50 BMG]

Oh God if this passes I close my eyes and see them destroying an enormous amount of history which is behind why most of us collect.
I take my firearms to the range to shoot. They are not just there to look at.

IMHO I don't see this happening. You may see states like Kalifornia passing some stupid law but with the NRA and others like firearms manufacturers fighting to defeat such foolishness I think it will go down in flames. I pray it does.

 

[That Guy]

I'm also of the opinion that the bigger and crazier the bill they push for is the less chance it has of passing. Feinstein's bill pretty much bans everything - it has no shot. Even anti-2A hunter types can see the writing on the wall with that, as a lot of their semi-automatic weapons would be banned.

 

[Infinite Jester]

I'm also of the opinion that the bigger and crazier the bill they push for is the less chance it has of passing. Feinstein's bill pretty much bans everything - it has no shot. Even anti-2A hunter types can see the writing on the wall with that, as a lot of their semi-automatic weapons would be banned.

I'm just worried that its an obvious ploy to go over the top, then agree to a "sensible" compromise. She may be hateable, but she's no fool.

 

[That Guy]

In all likelyhood, that is what will probably happen. I am out there talking to everyone I can, writing to politicians, but I fear the big thing we're about to lose is high capacity magazines. I see a ban coming with no provision for keeping existing mags. This is something the antis really want and it seems to sway those people in the middle for some reason.

 

[Infinite Jester]

In all likelyhood, that is what will probably happen. I am out there talking to everyone I can, writing to politicians, but I fear the big thing we're about to lose is high capacity magazines. I see a ban coming with no provision for keeping existing mags. This is something the antis really want and it seems to sway those people in the middle for some reason.

If I hear "Why does anyone need...blah blah" one more time, I think I'll puke. The one thing they can't seem to get their head wrapped around is the intent of the 2a. It's something I seldom hear, even from pro 2a groups. Hunting and self defense always come up, and never the defense against a tyrannical government. Education is severely lacking out there, but what do you expect.

 

[That Guy]

And if you mention defense against a tyrannical govt they look at you like you have two heads.

 

[Picton]

I'd still expect court challenges in the event they try to confiscate anything at all without restitution... there must be nearly a billion legal high-cap mags out there in various places, leading to a logistical nightmare at the very least. Which would be amusing to watch the government try to disentangle, if the stakes weren't so high. They've almost got to grandfather them, whether they want to or not.

 

[SKS Ray]

I'm sure when the 94 ban came out gun owners probably laughed at the fact that bayonet lugs were included and look what happened. All it takes is using words like military weapon and people who are for a new ban would be all over it no matter if they understood it or not. The fact that someone could have a highly collectible 1949 Russian SKS and then butcher it up with a side folding stock, flash hider and 20 round detachable mag is what will most likely make them look at SKS carbines. Then if they do, what about SVT40s, Hakims, G43s and other rifles that can be fitted with modified magazines?

The main thing is that the bill is so full of fail and contradiction that I don't see it going anywhere but instead being reworked into something that will eventually be agreed on and passed. The worst thing is that any bill could affect the collecting world. Just look at an SKS in Canada, they have to have the magazine wells pinned because they can't have semi autos over 5 rounds.

 

[milktree]

By what demented logic does she call/include the M1 carbine in an assault weapon ban? When was an M1 carbine EVER considered or used as an assault weapon!

WW-II. Read your history. It's also a paratrooper's gun. It also is externally identical to the M2, which was full auto. "Assault weapon" in the original meaning meant *exactly* a reduced power full auto rifle. Look at any of the German or Russian pistol caliber machine guns used in World War II.

How did England and Australia ban firearms? Didn't everyone turn them in?

Yes, according to the agencies responsible for the confiscation/registration. But they had good reason to fudge the numbers. (They wanted to keep their jobs and not be run out of the country on a rail)

But according to anyone who has half a brain, no. Australia's "turn in" program netted something like 5% of the guns they *knew* were in the country, and probably 1% of the ones they didn't know about. By any objective measure it was a complete failure, and that's not even counting that murder and other violent crimes, including those committed with guns, has gone *up* since the confiscation.

 

[ARV]

By what demented logic does she call/include the M1 carbine in an assault weapon ban? When was an M1 carbine EVER considered or used as an assault weapon! LOL First off its a 70 year old carbine ( not a rifle) that fires an overrsize pistol round. It was developed as a defensive weapon for troops who could not use or need a battle rifle! The M1 carbine is also being sold by the US Government through the CMP so I guess the US Government also pimping / pushing assault weapon to US citizens also! I can't think of a crime committed in the last 40 years where an M1 carbine was the weapon used. Just what is an assault weapon anyway? I looked at the draft bill and it contains weapons that have nothing to do with been an "assault" weapons. The pick list of what should be ban and why reads like something a demented child would create based on what "looks" bad.

She is the type of government offical that should be watched very carefully. She easily justifies taking away the rights of others based on her own beliefs and wishes to spread her gun control witch hunt through out the country. She is the type of politician why we need a 2nd ammendment!

The hipoint carbine is on there for ****** sake. If that's on there.... the M-1 is an evil baby killer used by the Nazi's to them.

(Yes, that's intentional)

 

[SKS Ray]

Just wanted to post a reminder here that this thread is for discussion of how proposed laws could have an impact on milsurp collectors.

 

[40 caliber]

So far proposed laws have been "good" for the gun industry as they are sold out. I am not sure i have seen the pull over into other collectables yet. I firmly believe that if "Assault weapons" are banned, SKSs may move up a notch. they are pre-AK, seen as collectable today and have the evil bayonet feature.

I understand they can be converted to hicap mags, but that would be illegal so completely impossible to d. So there will be no need to ban them (lots of sarcasm)

With SKSs in the $375-$500 range, they may become the "affordable AK alternative" if AKs stay in the 4 digit stratosphere. This will of course drive their price higher.

is this a good thing for the hobby? not really unless you have many already. ... but this may be the result

 

[Andreas]

My question is this. Many of us have bought these weapons as a means of investment as well. This law, if passed, will make these guns worthless.

This.
While I have use all of my firearms frequently, and don't have any "safe queens".... I have always seriously viewed them as an investment that will only appreciate in value. They're what I'd fall back on selling if I had a financial emergency (aside from a few that I'd never get rid of).

 

[noddaduma]

With respect to the M-1 Carbine: wasn't it specifically exempted last time?

With respect to bayonet lugs: would that prohibit basically any milsurp semi-auto?

 

[Rover51]

WW-II. Read your history. It's also a paratrooper's gun. It also is externally identical to the M2, which was full auto. "Assault weapon" in the original meaning meant *exactly* a reduced power full auto rifle. Look at any of the German or Russian pistol caliber machine guns used in World War II.

Not to split hairs but the majority of the M1 carbines WERE NOT paratrooper guns (folding stocktype) A total of around 6.5 million M1 carbines were made. As for the M1 Carbine paratroper model, it was designated the M1A1 and only about 150,000 were produced. Both the M1 and the M1A are only semi automatic weapons period!! As for the M2, yes externally it looked like the M1 except it had a selective fire switch which stuck out of the left had side of the carbine and also has about 7 additional internal parts which gave it its selectable fire capability. The M2 is a selective fire carbine which can be shot in semi automatically or fully automatic mode. The M2 is also classified as a machine gun, is currently available from collectors and can be purchase legally . I suggest you might need to brush up on your history of the M1.

 

[50 BMG]

I'm sure when the 94 ban came out gun owners probably laughed at the fact that bayonet lugs were included and look what happened. All it takes is using words like military weapon and people who are for a new ban would be all over it no matter if they understood it or not. The fact that someone could have a highly collectible 1949 Russian SKS and then butcher it up with a side folding stock, flash hider and 20 round detachable mag is what will most likely make them look at SKS carbines. Then if they do, what about SVT40s, Hakims, G43s and other rifles that can be fitted with modified magazines?

The main thing is that the bill is so full of fail and contradiction that I don't see it going anywhere but instead being reworked into something that will eventually be agreed on and passed. The worst thing is that any bill could affect the collecting world. Just look at an SKS in Canada, they have to have the magazine wells pinned because they can't have semi autos over 5 rounds.

Ray looking at that picture makes me feel ill. Why cant these fools just leave us alone.

Long live the Republic!

 

[Picton]

With respect to bayonet lugs: would that prohibit basically any milsurp semi-auto?

Only if it also had a pistol grip, a grenade launcher, or a collapsible stock. "Just" a bayonet lug on a semiauto with a detachable magazine was never banned, AFAIK.

 

[NinerMaine]

Only if it also had a pistol grip, a grenade launcher, or a collapsible stock. "Just" a bayonet lug on a semiauto with a detachable magazine was never banned, AFAIK.

It feels good to be green again.

Picton, the new ban being proposed only required one feature or is named. The M1 carbine is currently on the list. For a non named gun, any gun that is semi-automatic and has one evil feature will be banned. They also intend of expanding the definition of pistol grip so no more getting around that.

I am glad to see many of my fellow collectors feeling the same way I do about this. I think it would be foolish of us to not band together and stand for no compromise. I think we all know, they will not stop here and someday we may find all of our collection being banned and destroyed. I found this on another site and thought it would make sense to post here.

View attachment 48415

 

[Picton]

I know; I thought noddaduma was asking about the prior ban. My mistake.

 

[noddaduma]

I know; I thought noddaduma was asking about the prior ban. My mistake.

My apologies for jumping topics in my post

1st question was about prior ban. 2 nd question relates to Feinstein's proposed ban.

 

[SKS Ray]

I was talking with another NESr this morning and bought up something that I can see happening whether or not a total AWB goes into place.

Back during the Clinton ban there were restrictions placed on China and Russia. No Russian semi auto military rifles were allowed for import and I'm pretty sure the same went for China but as a total import ban from them. This is why you never saw anymore SVT40s or SKS's come in from Russia and why Norinco ammo along with Chicom SKSs and AKs were never imported anymore from China.

Now think about all the countries they forgot about such as Romania, Yugoslavia, Poland, Hungary, etc. and look at all the rifles/handguns we have here in the US that have been imported since 94. Here in the US we've been pretty lucky to receive new SKS rifles from Yugoslavia, new Romanian AK pistols, new Polish AKs and PPS43s, and enough parts from other countries to allow US manufacturers to crank out their own versions of various rifles. Plus importers are discovering new bundles of guns here and there and are working to import them for the US market.

This is something that the people who are coming up with drafts for a new ban I'm sure are well aware of. IF a new ban gets rejected and is re-written the cycle will continue until one passes that the majority in DC finally approves. What you probably won't hear about is an import ban. There's a chance that will sneak in and go under the radar because most people here in the US won't pay any attention to it, and that's something that will definitely affect the collecting market.

 

[NinerMaine]

I was talking with another NESr this morning and bought up something that I can see happening whether or not a total AWB goes into place.

Back during the Clinton ban there were restrictions placed on China and Russia. No Russian semi auto military rifles were allowed for import and I'm pretty sure the same went for China but as a total import ban from them. This is why you never saw anymore SVT40s or SKS's come in from Russia and why Norinco ammo along with Chicom SKSs and AKs were never imported anymore from China.

Now think about all the countries they forgot about such as Romania, Yugoslavia, Poland, Hungary, etc. and look at all the rifles/handguns we have here in the US that have been imported since 94. Here in the US we've been pretty lucky to receive new SKS rifles from Yugoslavia, new Romanian AK pistols, new Polish AKs and PPS43s, and enough parts from other countries to allow US manufacturers to crank out their own versions of various rifles. Plus importers are discovering new bundles of guns here and there and are working to import them for the US market.

This is something that the people who are coming up with drafts for a new ban I'm sure are well aware of. IF a new ban gets rejected and is re-written the cycle will continue until one passes that the majority in DC finally approves. What you probably won't hear about is an import ban. There's a chance that will sneak in and go under the radar because most people here in the US won't pay any attention to it, and that's something that will definitely affect the collecting market.

Good point Ray, however it does not have to pass Congress. It can be simply done by an executive order as the current ban on Chinese ammo and guns was done. It could also be done by a simple rule change at ATF like they did with the AK kits coming in from Eastern Europe. They simply changed the rule and said the kits could no longer be imported with the barrels intact.

 

[SKS Ray]

Good point Ray, however it does not have to pass Congress. It can be simply done by an executive order as the current ban on Chinese ammo and guns was done. It could also be done by a simple rule change at ATF like they did with the AK kits coming in from Eastern Europe. They simply changed the rule and said the kits could no longer be imported with the barrels intact.

True.

Does anyone remember what the going price for a 59/66 Yugo SKS was when they were first imported many years ago? From what I remember reading they were somewhere in the neighborhood of $1000 because they had never been imported and only a few came in.

 

[NinerMaine]

True.

Does anyone remember what the going price for a 59/66 Yugo SKS was when they were first imported many years ago? From what I remember reading they were somewhere in the neighborhood of $1000 because they had never been imported and only a few came in.

Prior to the more recent import batch, there were only 1200 known to have been imported. The going price was over $1000 as you have correctly stated. I always remember that fact as a warning in collecting. Factors in collecting can change. Imagine if you had just paid $1200 for a Yugo 59/66 and feel you scored one as they were rare. Then a year later you can pick one up in excellent condition for $100. I would be very very frustrated.

 

[arsenal9w]

We are outnumbered.

 

[NinerMaine]

Here is the list from Feinstein's bill. I do not know enough about Thompson Semi-Auto Tommy guns, so are the Thompsons listed Tommy guns.


List of Firearms Prohibited by Name
Rifles: All AK types, including the following: AK, AK47, AK47S, AK-74, AKM, AKS, ARM,
MAK90, MISR, NHM90, NHM91, Rock River Arms LAR-47, SA85, SA93, Vector Arms AK-
47, VEPR, WASR-10, and WUM, IZHMASH Saiga AK, MAADI AK47 and ARM, Norinco
56S, 56S2, 84S, and 86S, Poly Technologies AK47 and AKS; All AR types, including the
following: AR-10, AR-15, Armalite M15 22LR Carbine, Armalite M15-T, Barrett REC7,
Beretta AR-70, Bushmaster ACR, Bushmaster Carbon 15, Bushmaster MOE series, Bushmaster
XM15, Colt Match Target Rifles, DoubleStar AR rifles, DPMS Tactical Rifles, Heckler & Koch
MR556, Olympic Arms, Remington R-15 rifles, Rock River Arms LAR-15, Sig Sauer SIG516
rifles, Smith & Wesson M&P15 Rifles, Stag Arms AR rifles, Sturm, Ruger & Co. SR556 rifles;
Barrett M107A1; Barrett M82A1; Beretta CX4 Storm; Calico Liberty Series; CETME Sporter;
Daewoo K-1, K-2, Max 1, Max 2, AR 100, and AR 110C; Fabrique Nationale/FN Herstal FAL,
LAR, 22 FNC, 308 Match, L1A1 Sporter, PS90, SCAR, and FS2000; Feather Industries AT-9;
Galil Model AR and Model ARM; Hi-Point Carbine; HK-91, HK-93, HK-94, HK-PSG-1 and
HK USC; Kel-Tec Sub-2000, SU-16, and RFB; SIG AMT, SIG PE-57, Sig Sauer SG 550, and
Sig Sauer SG 551; Springfield Armory SAR-48; Steyr AUG; Sturm, Ruger Mini-14 Tactical
Rife M-14/20CF; All Thompson rifles, including the following: Thompson M1SB, Thompson
T1100D, Thompson T150D, Thompson T1B, Thompson T1B100D, Thompson T1B50D,
Thompson T1BSB, Thompson T1-C, Thompson T1D, Thompson T1SB, Thompson T5,
Thompson T5100D, Thompson TM1, Thompson TM1C; UMAREX UZI Rifle; UZI Mini
Carbine, UZI Model A Carbine, and UZI Model B Carbine; Valmet M62S, M71S, and M78;
Vector Arms UZI Type; Weaver Arms Nighthawk; Wilkinson Arms Linda Carbine.
Pistols: All AK-47 types, including the following: Centurion 39 AK pistol, Draco AK-47 pistol,
HCR AK-47 pistol, IO Inc. Hellpup AK-47 pistol, Krinkov pistol, Mini Draco AK-47 pistol,
Yugo Krebs Krink pistol; All AR-15 types, including the following: American Spirit AR-15
pistol, Bushmaster Carbon 15 pistol, DoubleStar Corporation AR pistol, DPMS AR-15 pistol,
Olympic Arms AR-15 pistol, Rock River Arms LAR 15 pistol; Calico Liberty pistols; DSA
SA58 PKP FAL pistol; Encom MP-9 and MP-45; Heckler & Koch model SP-89 pistol; Intratec
AB-10, TEC-22 Scorpion, TEC-9, and TEC-DC9; Kel-Tec PLR 16 pistol; The following MAC
types: MAC-10, MAC-11; Masterpiece Arms MPA A930 Mini Pistol, MPA460 Pistol, MPA
Tactical Pistol, and MPA Mini Tactical Pistol; Military Armament Corp. Ingram M-11, Velocity
Arms VMAC; Sig Sauer P556 pistol; Sites Spectre; All Thompson types, including the following:
Thompson TA510D, Thompson TA5; All UZI types, including: Micro-UZI.

Shotguns: Franchi LAW-12 and SPAS 12; All IZHMASH Saiga 12 types, including the
following: IZHMASH Saiga 12, IZHMASH Saiga 12S, IZHMASH Saiga 12S EXP-01,
IZHMASH Saiga 12K, IZHMASH Saiga 12K-030, IZHMASH Saiga 12K-040 Taktika;
Streetsweeper; Striker 12.

Belt-fed semiautomatic firearms: All belt-fed semiautomatic firearms including TNW M2HB.

 

[nickortizzle1035]

This woman is the devil. she needs to be stopped!

 

[Len-2A Training]

This woman is the devil. she needs to be stopped!

Sadly this won't happen in the "land of fruits and nuts"!

 

[NinerMaine]

The full text of the bill can be read here:

S.150

 

[majspud]

‘‘APPENDIX A – FIREARMS EXEMPTED BY THE
1
ASSAULT WEAPONS BAN OF 2013

‘‘Iver Johnson 50th Anniversary M-1 Carbine
17
(w/o folding stock)
18
‘‘Iver Johnson M-1 Carbine (w/o folding stock)
19
‘‘M-1 Carbines with standard fixed stock
20
‘‘M-1 Garand with fixed 8 round capacity and
21
22 standard stock

‘‘SKS type rifles with fixed 10 round magazine
14
and standard fixed stock

So far so good...for us MilSurp types...

MS